I Support Marion Jones


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Re: A Witch Hunt Beyond a Reasonable Suspicion

Postby Mel » Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:12 pm

"I find it odd that Flo Jo is generally ripped to shreds for her never proven drug use"

That's cuz we're all just plain too dumb.
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Re: A Witch Hunt Beyond a Reasonable Suspicion

Postby Jon » Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:28 pm

>---------------------
That is simply untrue. Bob
>Beamon went from a 26 foot
>jumper to 29. Back in 68, I doubt if one could
>attribute that to drugs OR
>altitude (a racist theory).

Beamon went from the low 27s to 29-2. His
>performance WAS attributed to both the altitude (as was Robert Emmiman's 29
>footer) AND the 2.0 mps wind. Because field events are generally "one-off"
>efforts with little or no intermediate measures by time or against other
>competitors, such "discontinuities" are to be expected in that set of events
>vs. the track events.



I second that altitude/wind explanation - it was undoubtedly a big contributing factor. But also remember that stat that gh originally posted on here (and RMc mentioned it again recently in the 'historical' section of this forum):

"A survey conducted in either 1968 or 1972 found that 68% of Olympians (US?) were using steroids or other performance enhancing drugs"
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Re: A Witch Hunt Beyond a Reasonable Suspicion

Postby Dutra » Tue Jun 22, 2004 7:54 pm

>"I find it odd that Flo Jo is generally ripped to shreds for her never proven
>drug use"

That's cuz we're all just plain too dumb.>>

and the point of my post went over your head apparently.
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Re: A Witch Hunt Beyond a Reasonable Suspicion

Postby gh » Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:38 pm

<<But also remember
>that stat that gh originally posted on here (and RMc mentioned it again
>recently in the 'historical' section of this forum):

"A survey conducted
>in either 1968 or 1972 found that 68% of Olympians (US?) were using steroids
>or other performance enhancing drugs">>

I've never posted any such thing, and I'd be surprised if Rich had either, since I don't know what valid source there might be. I think you're confusing it with the survey on how many Olympians were willing to take a substance even if it took X years off their life, so long as it guaranteed a gold medal.
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Re: A Witch Hunt Beyond a Reasonable Suspicion

Postby Jon » Tue Jun 22, 2004 8:41 pm

>I've never posted any such thing, and I'd be surprised if Rich had
>either, since I don't know what valid source there might be. I think you're
>confusing it with the survey on how many Olympians were willing to take a
>substance even if it took X years off their life, so long as it guaranteed a
>gold medal.



Well this is where I saw it recently:

http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/tfn/di ... hread=5599

RMc said that you may have posted it a while back, but now it looks like it might be a case of Chinese Whispers....
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Re: A Witch Hunt Beyond a Reasonable Suspicion

Postby Runninghorse » Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:03 pm

"A survey conducted
>in either 1968 or 1972 found that 68% of Olympians (US?) were using steroids
>or other performance enhancing drugs"
------------
That was the American athletes in 1984.
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Re: A Witch Hunt Beyond a Reasonable Suspicion

Postby Runninghorse » Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:12 pm

I second that altitude/wind
>explanation - it was undoubtedly a big contributing factor.

-------------

For such a theory to hold any water one should expect that a 26 foot jumper go to high altitude, wait for a 2 mph wind (or even 5 mph), jump and voila, he's jumping 29 feet. NOT!
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Re: A Witch Hunt Beyond a Reasonable Suspicion

Postby Sprintstatman » Wed Jun 23, 2004 12:03 am

>My main point was that it looks like blatant drug use, for which she never got caught, and I think that's the obvious elephant in the living room that no one wants to talk about.

I don't know where you've been for the last 16yrs my friend but I can assure you that this is one subject that has very definitely been talked about at very great length, not least around the time of her premature death.
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Re: A Witch Hunt Beyond a Reasonable Suspicion

Postby Sprintstatman » Wed Jun 23, 2004 12:07 am

>For such a theory to hold any water one should expect that a 26 foot jumper go to high altitude, wait for a 2 mph wind (or even 5 mph), jump and voila, he's jumping 29 feet. NOT!

Runninghorse, is it your contention that wind and altitude have no effect on performances in explosive events such as long jump?
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Re: A Witch Hunt Beyond a Reasonable Suspicion

Postby Mel » Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:56 am

and the point of my post went over your head apparently."

Yep, I could feel the breeze as it went whizzing by.
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Re: A Witch Hunt Beyond a Reasonable Suspicion

Postby malmo » Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:34 am

>Beamon went from the low 27s to 29-2. His
>performance WAS attributed to both the altitude (as was Robert Emmiman's 29
>footer) AND the 2.0 mps wind.

I like the way that altitude affects individual athletes in different ways. One athlete gets a two foot push from it, the rest get nothing.

I missed my physics class the day they explained that one, so until it does get explained I'll just settle with the Ockham's razor explanation -- Beamon just popped one.
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Re: A Witch Hunt Beyond a Reasonable Suspicion

Postby malmo » Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:38 am

<Runninghorse, is it your contention that wind and
>altitude have no effect on performances in explosive events such as long
>jump?

I think it would be safe to say it doesn't pick and choose which athletes it's going to give a two foot push?
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Re: A Witch Hunt Beyond a Reasonable Suspicion

Postby Ehecatl » Wed Jun 23, 2004 6:19 am

>>Beamon went from the low 27s to 29-2. His performance WAS attributed to both the altitude (as was Robert Emmiman's 29 footer) AND the 2.0 mps wind.<<

In fact, the wind was probably greater than 2.0.
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Re: A Witch Hunt Beyond a Reasonable Suspicion

Postby Mel » Wed Jun 23, 2004 8:22 am

"I like the way that altitude affects individual athletes in different ways. One athlete gets a two foot push from it, the rest get nothing."

LOL!!! The rest would include the women jumpers as well no doubt, where the world record was improved 6cm (over the 6.76 jumped in Tokyo 4 yrs prior) and the silver medallist couldn't even go as far as the previous record.
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Re: Beamon's jump

Postby RMc » Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:42 am

My observation about the wind and altitude was in retort to the apparent claim that Beamon's mark was achieved largely due to the use of drugs. It's absolutely correct that Beamon "popped one", and his mark reflected his apparent lack of any acknowledgement of human limits at that moment. But his mark also came on the opening jump of the competition for the top tier jumpers, and it crushed the morale of the other jumpers. It's not surprising that they did not jump as well--they had lost their motivation as they could no longer imagine winning the gold.

However, it's also true that Beamon's mark would not have been as far at low altitude and with a less aiding wind. As with Emmiman (sp?), Beamon was never able to really approach that mark again--he never broke 28' and I'm not sure if ever surpassed the previous WR again.

As for the conditions at Mexico City, note that in the men's TJ, the WR was broken several times during the competition by the various medalists, indicating that the conditions did affect the other horizontal jumps significantly.
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Re: Beamon's jump

Postby malmo » Wed Jun 23, 2004 10:04 am

>As for the conditions at Mexico City, note that in the men's TJ, the WR
>was broken several times during the competition by the various medalists,
>indicating that the conditions did affect the other horizontal jumps
>significantly.

Or back to William of Ockham, perhaps it was the event in itself, the Olympic Games, that provided the "conditions" for such greatness?

The Games have a long history of individuals rising to the occasion and doing "the impossible." History shows that athletes "step it up a notch" in both the sprints and jumps every four years -- at sea level. Why wouldn't Mexico City be any different? In those days, when there were not many opportunities available - not anything like today or even since the beginning of the professional era in the early eighties.

I'd like to see a statistical analysis of jumps at altitude vs sea level, with or without the "Olympic boost" to illustrate just how little altitude actually affects performance (non distance that is). I'd guess it's on the order of a couple inches, at most.
Last edited by malmo on Wed Jun 23, 2004 11:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: I Support Marion Jones

Postby Runninghorse » Wed Jun 23, 2004 10:11 am

What distinguishes T&F from the American pro sports is that those
>running the sport actually still have some morals left. No they aren't
>perfect, but they do try to muddle through and do the right thing. On the
>other hand, the commissioners for baseball, football and basketball clearly and
>obviously are always making financial calculations every single time they open
>their mouths. The question is whether we want our sport to foresake the
>fundamental premise of our sport to increase the financial gain that will
>accrue to a few elite athletes and meet promoters?
--------------
Excusez moi??? Is this a joke?? No, you're not serious ... or are you? You really think that there is even so much as a shred of difference in the morality and honesty of track officials just because they're in your sport of choice?

Let's put it this way. Where there is money, power and glory, you can bet your sweetazz it is a vacuum for the greedy, the power-hungry and the glory-hunters. I don't know what makes you or anyone think that there is something more sanctified or holy about a track than a basketball court, a baseball diamond, football field or boxing ring that automatically renders its practitioners cleansed of evil intent.

We live under a capitalistic system and money rules. "Money talks - bulls__t walks." That's the name of the game no matter in what corner of our lives you may search. The bigger the money to be made, the nastier things get. That's just the way things are.

Frankly, I wouldn't be surprised if some low-paid testors sell the highly-prized DNA to nasty companies like Monsanto and others in the business of genetic engineering and taking out patents on human beings. I'm sure they'd pay a fortune to get their hands on the DNA of top athletes.
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Re: I Support Marion Jones

Postby tafnut » Wed Jun 23, 2004 10:24 am

While I agree with you, in principle, BOXING is nothing like any of the other sports. It was dirty - it is dirty - it will be dirty. I AM hypocritical enough to watch a heavyweight title bout every now and again (esp. Tyson in his earlier years - say, before the cannibalism episode), BUT any sport that makes its primary aim to actually incapacitate at best and kill/permanently disable at worst, really does bring out the slimebuckets in droves (promoters, etc.). That sport (even at the amateur level) needs to be outlawed.
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Re: I Support Marion Jones

Postby Pego » Wed Jun 23, 2004 11:28 am

<The Games have a long history of individuals rising to the occasion and doing "the impossible." History shows that athletes "step it up a notch" in both the sprints and jumps every four years -- at sea level. Why wouldn't Mexico City be any different? In those days, when there were not many opportunities available - not anything like today or even since the beginning of the professional era in the early eighties.>

Paging Kuha.
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Re: Beamon's jump

Postby RMc » Wed Jun 23, 2004 1:25 pm

>>As for the conditions at Mexico City, note that in the men's TJ, the WR
>was
>broken several times during the competition by the various
>medalists,
>indicating that the conditions did affect the other horizontal
>jumps
>significantly.

Or back to William of Ockham, perhaps it was the
>event in itself, the Olympic Games, that provided the "conditions" for such
>greatness?

The Games have a long history of individuals rising to the
>occasion and doing "the impossible." History shows that athletes "step it up
>a notch" in both the sprints and jumps every four years -- at sea level. Why
>wouldn't Mexico City be any different? In those days, when there were not many
>opportunities available - not anything like today or even since the beginning
>of the professional era in the early eighties.

I'd like to see a
>statistical analysis of jumps at altitude vs sea level, with or without the
>"Olympic boost" to illustrate just how little altitude actually affects
>performance (non distance that is). I'd guess it's on the order of a couple
>inches, at most.

I'll leave it to you to produce those statistics, since you're offering the alternative hypothesis to the accepted wisdom on this issue. The Big Green Book differs with your perspective.

But as a counter, why weren't these WRs broken, or even approached in 1972 at Munich or 1976 at Montreal. Or for that matter, why not at Tokyo in 1964 or Rome in 1960? Mexico had multiple WRs in 3 different horizontal jump events. The competitive opportunities were still "limited" as the professional aspects of the sport really hadn't taken off yet.

I agree that the Olympics (and WCs) add an inspirational factor that increases the likelihood of a WR performance--MJ's 19.32 falls into that category. But one can't discount the effects at Mexico City on the sprints and jumps.
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Re: I Support Marion Jones

Postby RMc » Wed Jun 23, 2004 1:33 pm

>What distinguishes T&F from the American pro sports is that those
>running the
>sport actually still have some morals left. No they aren't
>perfect, but they
>do try to muddle through and do the right thing. On the
>other hand, the
>commissioners for baseball, football and basketball clearly and
>obviously are
>always making financial calculations every single time they open
>their
>mouths. The question is whether we want our sport to foresake
>the
>fundamental premise of our sport to increase the financial gain that
>will
>accrue to a few elite athletes and meet
>promoters?
--------------
Excusez moi??? Is this a joke?? No, you're not
>serious ... or are you? You really think that there is even so much as a shred
>of difference in the morality and honesty of track officials just because
>they're in your sport of choice?

I personally know many of the managers of the sport at various levels, and I've known many of them from long before they became high mucky-mucks. I've also had encounters with managers in other professional sports, although I do not know them well. However, I can say that there is a strong qualitative difference between the two groups in terms of their focus on the bottom line and what ethical limits they are willing to push. So I make this statement based on both my owm personal knowledge and on observing the actionis of the various sports leagues and associations. I can be cynical, but I won't let it cloud my judgement about specific instances.

If you can provide concrete examples of how they are identical in terms of the relative balancing of bottom line vs. ethical issues, then we have something to talk about, but right now all I see are unsubstantiated assertions. Perhaps mine are not easily quantified, but I am trying to be specific about what information I base my position on, rather than making gross generalizations.
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Re: I Support Marion Jones

Postby Runninghorse » Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:17 pm

If you can provide concrete examples of how they are
>identical in terms of the relative balancing of bottom line vs. ethical issues,
>then we have something to talk about, but right now all I see are
>unsubstantiated assertions. Perhaps mine are not easily quantified, but I am
>trying to be specific about what information I base my position on, rather than
>making gross generalizations.
----------------
Well, you are most certainly making gross generalization statements. You want concrete examples from me to counter your unsubstantiated generalizations that the people who run the "other" sports are somehow shadier than those who run track & field.
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Re: I Support Marion Jones

Postby Mel » Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:42 pm

"Bob Beamon went from a 26 foot jumper to 29. Back in 68, I doubt if one could attribute that to drugs OR altitude (a racist theory)."

And how many times did he achieve that performance - ONE! Florence ran 10.49 with a suspect wind, and THREE other times which all convert to 10.66:

10.54 (+3.0)
10.61 (+1.2)
10.62 (+1.0)

She was one of the most remarkably consistent sprinters EVER, regardless of whether she used or not. That 10.49 probably had a wind of around 4-5 m/s placing it right in there with the other 3 runs. And like Angella Issajenko said in her interview with Jon, Marion would never have had a hope against Flo- nobody did.
Last edited by Mel on Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Beamon's jump

Postby malmo » Wed Jun 23, 2004 8:04 pm

>I'll leave it to you to produce those statistics,
>since you're offering the alternative hypothesis to the accepted wisdom on this
>issue. The Big Green Book differs with your perspective.

I'm sure you are not listening, and while I don't subscribe to a Big Green Book, I'd bet there isn't much difference in perspective. Read what I said, Richard, not what you want to hear from me.

I'm saying that the effect of altitude on the jumps is much less than YOU think it is. Nothing more. Beamon just popped one, it just happened to be at altitude. Altitude is a dispassionate conspirator that doesn't play favorites. The effects aren't apportioned two feet for one and two inches (or less) for the rest.
Last edited by malmo on Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Beamon's jump

Postby tafnut » Thu Jun 24, 2004 4:30 am

"Beamon just popped one, it just happened to be at altitude."

Absolutely - 100% agree. Which is why we need to stop being so paranoid whenever someone 'pops' one. Some are dirty - but some are clean. Let's just hope that this BALCO catastrophe results in a cleaner (clean, itself, will never happen) sport.
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Re: Beamon's jump

Postby kuha » Thu Jun 24, 2004 4:51 am

"Paging Kuha."

Howdy, Pego...how are you doing? Sorry I haven't been minding my pager (or this thread)... Are you suggesting that I'd be embarrassed at the idea of athletes peaking for the Olympics? I'm not; obviously they do. I've never contested the fact that athletes and the public BOTH put enormous stock in the Olympics--everyone knows they do. My "critique," such as it is, deals with every OTHER issue of the Olympics... I (seriously) hope you have a good time at the OT...
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Re: I Support Marion Jones

Postby RMc » Thu Jun 24, 2004 8:27 am

---------------
Well, you are most certainly making
>gross generalization statements. You want concrete examples from me to counter
>your unsubstantiated generalizations that the people who run the "other"
>sports are somehow shadier than those who run track & field.

I'll start with the Bud Seligs, the baseball commissioner agreement with the players' union to avoid enforceable drug testing. He made that agreement to get a better financial deal on other issues. He has continually encouraged teams to leverage local cities by threatening to move to other cities.

Or the football commissioner, Paul Tagliabue, doing the same thing on football teams, approving the stealing away in the night from one city to the next. The NFL drug testing policy, while better than MLB's, is still an ineffective joke.

The sports page is rampant with tales of greed and underhandedness by owners of major league sports franchises. I don't see any of the same stories about USATF, not even in the TFN or other specialize press.

You began this conversation with broad unfounded generalizations. It's your burden to back them up. I've provided some evidence to the contrary, but you're the one who has slandered the USATF leadership, not me.
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Re: Beamon's jump

Postby RMc » Thu Jun 24, 2004 8:38 am

>>I'll leave it to you to produce those statistics,
>since you're offering the
>alternative hypothesis to the accepted wisdom on this
>issue. The Big Green
>Book differs with your perspective.

I'm sure you are not listening, and
>while I don't subscribe to a Big Green Book, I'd bet there isn't much
>difference in perspective. Read what I said, Richard, not what you want to hear
>from me.

I'm saying that the effect of altitude on the jumps is much less
>than YOU think it is. Nothing more. Beamon just popped one, it just happened to
>be at altitude. Altitude is a dispassionate conspirator that doesn't play
>favorites. The effects aren't apportioned two feet for one and two inches (or
>less) for the rest.

Perhaps you should read more carefully what I said. I never said how much of an advantage Beamon got from the altitude--you assumed that I claimed the entire 21". I do know that the TJ WR was improved 5 times by 3 men in that meet by a total of 13". That's within the order of magnitude in improvement. That seems to support my hypothesis that a significant portion of Beamon's improvement is attributable to altitude and wind. I haven't and won't try to quantify "significant", just so that you won't try to read something more than what I actually said. And yes, Beamon popped one, as I said in another post (which you apparently didn't read.) The question, which neither of us can answer, is how much of that was from the local conditions versus his breakthrough performance. You're looking for the single explanation, but that's not the case here.
Last edited by RMc on Thu Jun 24, 2004 8:39 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Beamon's jump

Postby malmo » Thu Jun 24, 2004 9:32 am

<<You're looking for the single explanation, but that's not the case here

ARRRRRH! No I'm not.

I'm surprised long jump coaches, or at least our resident physicists haven't weighed in yet. Since I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express once I'll start it.

Richard. The physics of it. There are two factors involved in the flight during the long jump 1) horizontal velocity and 2) trajectory angle. Altitude can only influence the velocity. By how much? Considering that running the 100 meters you'd expect, at most, one tenth of a second improvement in velocity, which is only a one percent benefit. This works out to only 3 inches. Citing that the WR in the triple jump was broken 5 times doesn't change that fact. It only proves it was a hell of a competition.

There are many red herrings along the way, including the change in the acceleration of gravity due to altitude (Ga) which is a negligible difference represented by the formula (Ga/Gs)=(Rs/Ra)^2. Gs is 9.8m/s^2, radius (Rs) of the earth is approx 6400km, at Mexico City 6600km. It's actually a little more complicated than that because the Earth is not a sphere - the equatorial radius is a tiny bit larger than the polar radius- but that's all academic. Geophysicists have complicated formulas to take in account for everything (using both latitude and altitude as variables). You'd have to stay at Holiday Inn Express a whole week to understand it though. The end result is: altitude has a negligible effect on G.

Still waiting on the long jump experts to step in, or perhaps one of the Level, I,II, III certified geniuses? Just a superficial research I came up with stats that shows the angle of trajectory of Mike Powell's WR was about 25 degrees, compared with Carl Lewis's of 21 degrees (faster Velocity of course). Whether accurate or not, I read that in Bob Beamons WR in Mexico City the angle of trajectory was 35 freakin degrees!

Like I said, he popped one. One for the ages.

Get the long jump coaches and physicists in here to do clean up for me. Thank you.
Last edited by malmo on Thu Jun 24, 2004 9:40 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Beamon's jump

Postby Pego » Thu Jun 24, 2004 9:33 am

<I (seriously) hope you have a good time at the OT... >

Does this mean you won't be there?
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Re: Beamon's jump

Postby kuha » Thu Jun 24, 2004 9:40 am

Pego: Nope, sorry... I'll be at Rome and Lausanne and miscellaneous points inbetween... I begin at Rome and up in Arles, France, for their annual photo extravaganza. It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it... Perhaps I'll make the US trials again in '08...or '12...or '16...? Have fun!
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Re: Beamon's jump

Postby Pego » Thu Jun 24, 2004 9:49 am

Thank you. Enjoy your "dirty job" in Europe.
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Re: Beamon's jump

Postby RMc » Thu Jun 24, 2004 2:45 pm

><<You're looking for the single explanation, but that's not the case
>here

>ARRRRRH! No I'm not.
....

>Like I said, he popped one. One for the ages.

Then why do you return to your single explanation? And why do the performance statistics from Mexico City, not only for the Olympics, but other competitions as well, refute your claim?

A 1% boost is rather large in the scheme of world performances. But let's look at the TJ in '68. The WR was improved 2% in that competition. If we use that as the starting point, and conservatively add another 1% for the wind in excess of 2 mps (as witnesses have related), then we're at 3%. That's half of the 6% improvement that Beamon put on the mark.

Physics equations can not incorporate all of the complexity of a biological process such as long jumping (I've seen too many physicists screw up their economics analyses to know this well.) Just look at the facts on the ground, and its obvious that wind and altitude had a significant effect on his jump. I'll give you that 30-50% of his improvement was that he "popped on" but no more.

And you still haven't explained why "breakthroughs" of similiar magnitude have not happened exclusively at the Olympics in prior or subsequent years?

And rereading your initial post, you really took my statement out of context. I was positing the alternative explanation to the boost being drug usage. I was simply replacing "drugs" with "wind and altitude." I NEVER said that it was the SOLE explanation, just as "drugs" would not be the sole explantion either. Read more carefully, and actually think before you fire off replies...
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Re: Beamon's jump

Postby Jon » Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:00 pm

>Pego: Nope, sorry... I'll be at Rome and Lausanne and miscellaneous points
>inbetween... I begin at Rome and up in Arles, France, for their annual photo
>extravaganza. It's a dirty job, but someone has to do it... Perhaps I'll make
>the US trials again in '08...or '12...or '16...? Have fun!




Kuha - when you say you're going to Rome, do you mean for the Golden Gala meet...?
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Re: Beamon's jump

Postby ycn » Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:04 pm

I don't think you can single out any amazing performance and point to possible drug use as the reason. Some people somehow find a way to do things that others haven't done before. It's called the progression of marks.

Someday someone will accomplish something similar to what Beamon did, and they won't be on drugs. It's just that every single factor that could possibly be in their favor all converge at the right place and time to produce a performance that stuns the world.

Don't forget that before Beamon's monster jump, the LJ record had been fairly stagnant for quite some time. It was at that time an event that was ripe for an amazing performance. Especially in those single short frame performance events, mainly the field events, that such performances will usually be found.

I truly believe that Beamon just happened to get off the perfect jump under the most perfect conditions, and the fact that he was as good as anyone in his event definitely didn't hurt. The fact that he never again came close to that mark is an affirmation of the "once in a lifetime" nature of his feat.

I think Beamon cried when he made that jump because he probably realized right then and there that he probably could never ever jump that far again. That's a pretty sobering thought for a top world-class athlete.
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Re: Beamon's jump

Postby malmo » Thu Jun 24, 2004 4:50 pm

>>>Then why do you return to your single explanation? And why do the performance statistics from Mexico City, not only for the Olympics, but other competitions as well, refute your claim?

MALMO SEZ: I am not returning to a single explanation. For the second time: "I'M SAYING THAT THE EFFECT OF ALTITUDE ON THE JUMPS IS MUCH LESS THAN YOU THINK IT IS" That exact same sentence that I posted above.
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>>>A 1% boost is rather large in the scheme of world performances. But let's look at the TJ in '68. The WR was improved 2% in that competition. If we use that as the starting point, and conservatively add another 1% for the wind in excess of 2 mps (as witnesses have related), then we're at 3%. That's half of the 6% improvement that Beamon put on the mark.

MALMO SEZ: ARRRHHH! This is nonsense Richard. If you figure that altitude is responsible for 1 percent, and for arguments sake I'll throw in another 1 percent for the wind, you cannot take the 2 percent (which ALREADY includes the effect of the wind) and add on another 1 percent again for wind! On top of that you are saying that the event itself, which occurs only once every four years, didn't factor into the formula? Absolute nonsense, and you know it! I'm being generous when I give the ambient conditions at Mexico City a 2 percent hand in the 6.6 percent smashing of the previous WR. Beamon improved his PR by 6.8 percent!
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>>>Physics equations can not incorporate all of the complexity of a biological process such as long jumping (I've seen too many physicists screw up their economics analyses to know this well.) Just look at the facts on the ground, and its obvious that wind and altitude had a significant effect on his jump. I'll give you that 30-50% of his improvement was that he "popped one" but no more.

MALMO SEZ: Velocity is the only determinant in the long jump equation that can be affected by altitude or wind. Velocity cannot be improved by 6.6 percent because of altitude and a blowing wind, otherwise we'd hear about 10 flat sprinters hitting 9.34, and 20 flat sprinters running 18.67. One guy ran 9.76 drugged up, another ran 9.78, probably drugged up, and both did it at sea level. I heard another guy ran 19.32 for 200 meters at Atlanta's whopping 1000 feet altitude.

If I were you I'd leave the physicists alone. We've see your faulty analysis before. It ain't so hot. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>>And you still haven't explained why "breakthroughs" of similiar magnitude have not happened exclusively at the Olympics in prior or subsequent years?

MALMO SEZ: Why would they? I said "he popped one", not "everyone pops one." Unless you want to compare apples to apples? Lets say Victor Sanejev's 2.1 percent improvement with altitude and wind against Jonathan Edwards 1.7 percent improvement at sea level with a modest 1.3m/s wind? Using your nonsensical reasoning am I right to say that it was the low altitude and that helped Edwards beat his WR that was set at 800m altitude in Salamanca, Spain? Or was MJ 1.7 percent improvement caused by the 1000ft altitude and zero wind at Atlanta?
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>>>And rereading your initial post, you really took my statement out of context. I was positing the alternative explanation to the boost being drug usage. I was simply replacing "drugs" with "wind and altitude." I NEVER said that it was the SOLE explanation, just as "drugs" would not be the sole explanation either. Read more carefully, and actually think before you fire off replies...

MALMO SEZ Richard you are unrepentant. This is exactly the same smokescreen you used to pull on the track list. At no point in this thread did anyone suggest that drugs were part of the equation in Beamons jump. In fact, the post that you originally responded to said exactly the opposite:

Runninghorse said: "Bob Beamon went from a 26 foot jumper to 29. Back in 68, I doubt if one could attribute that to drugs OR altitude (a racist theory)."

You responded: "Beamon went from the low 27s to 29-2. His performance WAS attributed to both the altitude (as was Robert Emmiman's 29 footer) AND the 2.0 mps wind. Because field events are generally "one-off" efforts with little or no intermediate measures by time or against other competitors, such "discontinuities" are to be expected in that set of events vs. the track events."
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ALL TIME WORLD
http://www.algonet.se/~pela2/athletics/mlongok.htm

1 8.95 +0.3 Mike Powell USA 10.11.63 1 Tokyo 30.08.1991
2 8.90A +2.0 Bob Beamon USA 29.08.46 1 Ciudad de México 18.10.1968
3 8.86A +1.85 Robert Emmiyan ARM 16.02.65 1 Tsakhkadzor 22.05.1987
4 8.79 +1.89 Carl Lewis USA 01.07.61 1 Indianapolis 19.06.1983
5 8.76 +1.0 Carl Lewis USA 01.07.61 1 Indianapolis 24.07.1982
5 8.76 +0.8 Carl Lewis USA 01.07.61 1 Indianapolis 18.07.1988
7 8.74 +1.4 Larry Myricks USA 10.03.56 2 Indianapolis 18.07.1988
7 8.74A +2.0 Erick Walder USA 05.11.71 1 El Paso 02.04.1994
9 8.72 -0.2 Carl Lewis USA 01.07.61 1 Seoul 26.09.1988
10 8.71 -0.3 Carl Lewis USA 01.07.61 1 Westwood 13.05.1984
10 8.71 +0.1 Carl Lewis USA 01.07.61 1 Los Angeles 19.06.1984
10 8.71 +1.9 Iván Pedroso CUB 17.12.72 1 Salamanca 18.07.1995
13 8.70 +0.87 Larry Myricks USA 10.03.56 1 Houston 17.06.1989
13 8.70 +0.7 Mike Powell USA 10.11.63 1 Salamanca 27.07.1993
13 8.70 +1.6 Iván Pedroso CUB 17.12.72 1 Göteborg 12.08.1995
16 8.68 +1.0 Carl Lewis USA 01.07.61 q Barcelona 05.08.1992
16 8.68 +1.6 Iván Pedroso CUB 17.12.72 1 Lisboa 17.06.1995
18 8.67 +0.4 Carl Lewis USA 01.07.61 1 Roma 05.09.1987
18 8.67 -0.7 Carl Lewis USA 01.07.61 1 Barcelona 06.08.1992
20 8.66 +1.0 Larry Myricks USA 10.03.56 1 Tokyo 23.09.1987
20 8.66 +0.9 Mike Powell USA 10.11.63 1 Villeneuve d'Ascq 29.06.1990
20 8.66 +0.3 Iván Pedroso CUB 17.12.72 1 Linz 22.08.1995
23 8.65 +0.2 Carl Lewis USA 01.07.61 1 Bruxelles 24.08.1984
23 8.65 +0.7 Carl Lewis USA 01.07.61 1 San Jose 26.06.1987
23 8.65 +1.5 Iván Pedroso CUB 17.12.72 1 Jena 03.06.2000
26 8.64 +1.7 Carl Lewis USA 01.07.61 1 New York City 15.06.1991
26 8.64 -0.5 Mike Powell USA 10.11.63 2 Barcelona 06.08.1992
28 8.63 +2.0 Larry Myricks USA 10.03.56 2 San Jose 26.06.1987
28 8.63 +0.5 Mike Powell USA 10.11.63 2 New York City 15.06.1991
28 8.63 +0.5 Kareem Streete-Thompson USA 30.03.73 1 Linz 04.07.1994
28 8.63 +1.1 Iván Pedroso CUB 17.12.72 1 Padova 08.06.1997
32 8.62 +0.8 Carl Lewis USA 01.07.61 1 Sacramento 20.06.1981
32 8.62 -0.1 Carl Lewis USA 01.07.61 1 Bruxelles 30.08.1985
32 8.62 ±0.0 Mike Powell USA 10.11.63 1 New Orleans 24.06.1992
32 8.62 +0.7 James Beckford JAM 09.01.75 1 Orlando 05.04.1997
36 8.61 +0.5 Carl Lewis USA 01.07.61 1 Westwood 16.05.1982
36 8.61 -0.3 Robert Emmiyan ARM 16.02.65 1 Moskva 06.07.1986
36 8.61 +1.2 Larry Myricks USA 10.03.56 1 Budapest 12.08.1988
36 8.61 +0.2 Mike Powell USA 10.11.63 1 Rhede 07.07.1991
40 8.60 +1.5 Iván Pedroso CUB 17.12.72 1 Zürich 16.08.1995
40 8.60 -0.1 Iván Pedroso CUB 17.12.72 1 Praha 10.06.1997
40 8.60 +0.4 James Beckford JAM 09.01.75 1 Bad Langensalza 06.06.1998
40 8.60 +1.8 Iván Pedroso CUB 17.12.72 1 Padova 26.06.1999


349 8.33 +1.3 Bob Beamon USA 29.08.46 1 Sacramento
Last edited by malmo on Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Beamon's jump

Postby big mac » Thu Jun 24, 2004 5:59 pm

At 6600m, air resistance would be 23% less which would give a potentially large advantage to jumpers. I still believe he just popped one however. Thats adrenaline for you.
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Re: Beamon's jump

Postby kuha » Thu Jun 24, 2004 6:04 pm

Kuha - when you say you're going to Rome, do you mean for the Golden Gala meet...?

Jon: Yes, absolutely! Are you going? We could have a T&FN message board (European branch) conference there and share gossip about all the others...
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Re: Beamon's jump

Postby Jon » Thu Jun 24, 2004 6:17 pm

Jon: Yes, absolutely! Are you going? We could have a T&FN message
>board (European branch) conference there and share gossip about all the
>others...


Haha! Definitely. There's someone else on here who is going (username 'Smister' I think), and also a couple from the IAAF forums.

Any chance you could send me an email (click on my username to get it). Cheers.
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Re: Beamon's jump

Postby malmo » Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:12 pm

>At 6600m, air resistance would be 23% less which would give a potentially large
>advantage to jumpers. I still believe he just popped one however. Thats
>adrenaline for you.

I have no doubt. But that doesn't translate to 23% increase in performance does it? Not even close. Horizontal velocity increases by about a percentage point.

Hopefully, our resident expert, Jonas Mureika, could weigh in here. He's published papers on this very subject.

One thing I thought of was, if we all agree that the "thin" air at altitude causes less resistance therefore faster velocities, then conversely, the effects of a tailwind at altitude are not as great as that at sea level. I'd bet that air resistance increases by the square of velocity. Nature always seems to work that way.
Last edited by malmo on Thu Jun 24, 2004 8:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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