A place for the discussion of all things not closely related to the sport and its competitive side. (Locked down several times a year during the major championships)
The statistics today are overwhelming. I saw Peyton Manning one time and he had a great comeback drive, but he had two 15-yard roughing-the-passer penalties. I'm thinking, 'I don't ever remember having one of those.' It's kind of a wussy game, really, in a way.
Looking back at what defensive players used to be able to get away, I think he might have a point. Can you imagine what would happen to a player if he did to Peyton Manning what Turkey Jones did to Terry Bradshaw? How would today's recievers deal with Dick "Night Train" Lane? What would the commisioner do with someone like Dick Butkus?
The statistics today are overwhelming. I saw Peyton Manning one time and he had a great comeback drive, but he had two 15-yard roughing-the-passer penalties. I'm thinking, 'I don't ever remember having one of those.' It's kind of a wussy game, really, in a way.
Looking back at what defensive players used to be able to get away, I think he might have a point. Can you imagine what would happen to a player if he did to Peyton Manning what Turkey Jones did to Terry Bradshaw? How would today's recievers deal with Dick "Night Train" Lane? What would the commisioner do with someone like Dick Butkus?
he had two 15-yard roughing-the-passer penalties. I'm thinking, 'I don't ever remember having one of those.' It's kind of a wussy game, really, in a way.
I think he might have a point.
No, he doesn't, and Rog should know better. Go visit some players from 30-40 years ago - they're a mess. They have dementia from two many concussions and have worthless knees from too many crack-back blocks. The present rules TRY to safe-guard players as much as possible, which, if you read the injury reports, really isn't all that much.
Before Staubach played, the rules in the NFL were that you had to be held down to be tackled. And before that in the 30's and early 40's if you were substituted you had to stay out until the end of the quarter.
But the game is so brutal know. The Fridge was a big guy 25 years ago and now would be on the average size now.
They might have roughing penalties but that does not stop the 300 pound gorillas going for the hit. Better to have the quarterback out and take your chances with a penalty. And how often was Staubach being hit by 300 lbs players?
The game is still way rougher than it needs to be. How many games are there even at the high school level that have nobody carried off the field? Just because it was rougher in Staubach's days does not mean it was right then. There are still ways to make it more technical and less brutal.
Pego wrote:The game is still way rougher than it needs to be. How many games are there even at the high school level that have nobody carried off the field? Just because it was rougher in Staubach's days does not mean it was right then. There are still ways to make it more technical and less brutal.
Daisy wrote:They might have roughing penalties but that does not stop the 300 pound gorillas going for the hit. Better to have the quarterback out and take your chances with a penalty.
Nowadays, if you do what those old timers did, you'll get more than a penalty, you'll miss a few paychecks, and for guys like Albert Haynesworth and Darelle Revis, that's more than a million dollars.
Daisy wrote: And how often was Staubach being hit by 300 lbs players?
George Atkinson and Jack Tatum didn't weigh 300 pounds but that didn't stop them from doing this. And according to the NFL's official website (nfl.com), Turkey Jones only weighed 250 pounds when he did this.
Pego wrote:The game is still way rougher than it needs to be. How many games are there even at the high school level that have nobody carried off the field? Just because it was rougher in Staubach's days does not mean it was right then. There are still ways to make it more technical and less brutal.
Pego wrote:The game is still way rougher than it needs to be. How many games are there even at the high school level that have nobody carried off the field? Just because it was rougher in Staubach's days does not mean it was right then. There are still ways to make it more technical and less brutal.
I'll admit starting this thread to stir the pot a little, but I do agree with you in principle. In an ideal world, the rules would be written under the assumption that the brother(s), son(s) and/or grandson(s) of the commissioner will be the ones playing the game.
I'm thinking that even with the rule and enforcement changes that Staubach would sing a different tune if he had to contend with the size, speed and strength of the current generation of NFL players. My bet is that Roger the Dodger's long career of running around freelancing away from big slow defenders would have been cut short in modern times.
jhc68 wrote:My bet is that Roger the Dodger's long career of running around freelancing away from big slow defenders would have been cut short in modern times.
Huh? Staubach only had an 11-year career and he spent his first two years on the bench. His career was short compared to the careers of modern day quarterbacks like Peyton Manning and Tom Brady, who are in their 13th and 11th years respectively, and still in their primes, not to mention Brett Favre who is in his 20 year.
Talk about a throw-back. Madden's love affair with him on the all-Madden team was well-founded. The guy (despite his inane quittings and unquittings) is sumpin else!
jazzcyclist wrote:[Staubach only had an 11-year career and he spent his first two years on the bench. .
Staubach also did the Navy thing, getting a relatively late start as a pro QB.
I'm fully aware of that, but those five years he spent in the Navy were also five years that he wasn't getting abused in an NFL that hadn't yet put aprons on the quarterbacks. If Staubach had went straight from Annapolis to the NFL, I doubt that he would have lasted until 1979, unless he was willing to hang around until he was shell of himself, a la Johnny Unitas and Joe Nammath.
It may be that Favre can be added to the list of those hanging around until they are shells of themselves. This will be an interesting season for him... certainly no wussie but maybe not the brightest light, either. As for Staubach, maybe it just seemed like he played forever since I got so weary of watching him run in circles ala Fran Tarkenton. I still doubt he'd have lasted his 11 years trying to do all that running and dodging among the big, fast guys pass rushing now.
jhc68 wrote:As for Staubach, maybe it just seemed like he played forever since I got so weary of watching him run in circles ala Fran Tarkenton. I still doubt he'd have lasted his 11 years trying to do all that running and dodging among the big, fast guys pass rushing now.
According to nfl.com, Staubach was 6-3/197 and Tarkenton 6-0/190. Currently they list Peyton Manning at 6-5/230, Tom Brady at 6-4/225, Drew Brees at 6-0/209 and Michael Vick at 6-0/215. Back in the old days, before the NFL legalized holding, err, liberalized the pass blocking rules, quarterbacks had to be agile, especially when you consider the fact that cornerbacks were allowed to mug their receivers all the way down the field. I think Brees and Vick would have done well in the old days, but I don't think Manning and Brady would have lasted too long, due to their lack of mobility.
By the way, did anyone else see the Steelers piledrive Vince Young this past Sunday?
I'm beginning to think that the NFL is only interested in protecting certain quarterbacks. I have a hard time believing that they could have done that to Peyton Manning and not at least get a roughing-the-passer penalty.
he had two 15-yard roughing-the-passer penalties. I'm thinking, 'I don't ever remember having one of those.' It's kind of a wussy game, really, in a way.
I think he might have a point.
No, he doesn't, and Rog should know better. Go visit some players from 30-40 years ago - they're a mess. They have dementia from two many concussions and have worthless knees from too many crack-back blocks. The present rules TRY to safe-guard players as much as possible, which, if you read the injury reports, really isn't all that much.
Maybe some of them are a mess but wasn't it their choice? I am sure many of them would have made the same choice with the same rules today. A lot of these players did it as well for peanuts compared with the players of today. I think Roger does have a point, like it or not, or agree with it or not.
I think the game is better today for the fact that it is trying to protect the players more, but, I admit that I miss some of the old style and often get tired of today's Divas as well.
jazzcyclist wrote:By the way, did anyone else see the Steelers piledrive Vince Young this past Sunday?
NFL fines Harrison $5000. Peanuts. The Steelers are my second most favored NFL team (right after the Pack), but I'll say that goons like Harrison (this is not the first or second for him) should be severely penalized.
odelltrclan wrote:Maybe some of them are a mess but wasn't it their choice?
I see no choice involved. They wanted to be pro football players, so you either play by their (unsafe) rules or not play at all (which, to them, was not an option, psychologically speaking).
It's like boxing or MMA. Totally voluntary, but guys (and some gals) are making monumentally poor choices (driven of course by fame and glory (and $$$)) to participate at all, when you consider how many end up with crippling (brain and body) injuries. 'Free choice' ain't all it's cracked up to be.
Marlow wrote:I see no choice involved. They wanted to be pro football players, so you either play by their (unsafe) rules or not play at all (which, to them, was not an option, psychologically speaking).
Have you forgotten what Hyman Roth said to Michael Corleone?
Haven't you seen the movie Crossroads? It's called "selling you soul to the devil". Robert Johnson did it, why can't these guys? Of course, I'm sympathetic to the old timers who didn't know any better, but the current generation of football players know they're making a deal with the devil.
I have a first cousin who is in his tenth year in the league. A couple of weeks ago he got his clock cleaned, and after the game my brother asked him if he was feeling alright, and he assured him that he was. However, since then, he's confided to my uncle that he did get concussed on the play in question, but he didn't want to report it because he knew that once the team got involved, he would be forced to miss an indeterminate number of games in a year that he's due for another contract. Him, his parents and his brother are already set for life, but at this point, I think he's simply addicted to the money. When he came out of college, he was the most non-materialistic person in my extended family, but not anymore.
odelltrclan wrote:Maybe some of them are a mess but wasn't it their choice?
I see no choice involved. They wanted to be pro football players, so you either play by their (unsafe) rules or not play at all (which, to them, was not an option, psychologically speaking).
It's like boxing or MMA. Totally voluntary, but guys (and some gals) are making monumentally poor choices (driven of course by fame and glory (and $$$)) to participate at all, when you consider how many end up with crippling (brain and body) injuries. 'Free choice' ain't all it's cracked up to be.
A key word in your response Marlow is WANT. I want a lot myself, but I know that I cannot have all I want. And there are consequences that come as a result of the pursuit of those wants. People have to LEARN to balance those wants with the consequences. Some of the older generation of NFL players may not have understood some of the issues with concussions that we understand today, but you could never convince me that these people did not know they were at risk of serious injury. They played the game because they love it. I think it was more so back then than now because the money now is not even comparable to the 50s 60s and 70s. And I believe many of the Butkus's would still be doing it with the old rules in effect today for lesser money.
I coach at the youth level...usually 12-14 yr old both football and basketball and I remember commenting that I never thought I would see the day when, prior to practice I'd have to collect the earings of the players or that, on occasion, a player would not be able to practice because he went to get his ears pierced during that afternoon and couldn't wear a helmet.
I'm thinking that even with the rule and enforcement changes that Staubach would sing a different tune if he had to contend with the size, speed and strength of the current generation of NFL players. My bet is that Roger the Dodger's long career of running around freelancing away from big slow defenders would have been cut short in modern times.
This was the point I was going to make, had it not already been made.
Stabauch maybe faced 1 or 2 guys a week on defense that weighed more than 250 AND ran 4.6, 4.5 or so. Now that's your average linebacker and often DE are much bigger.
The amazing Jack Lambert (and he was amazing) was listed at 220, but came into the league barely 200 pounds. I have football cards of him from when I was a kid that list him at 205.
The Mad Stork was aptly named and stretched 220 pounds over his 6'7" frame.
The League is so much bigger and faster. Some of the rules strike me as "pansy" as well, but I can't imagine a stationary QB lasting long without most of the rules.
odelltrclan wrote:A key word in your response Marlow is WANT. I want a lot myself, but I know that I cannot have all I want. And there are consequences that come as a result of the pursuit of those wants. People have to LEARN to balance those wants with the consequences. Some of the older generation of NFL players may not have understood some of the issues with concussions that we understand today, but you could never convince me that these people did not know they were at risk of serious injury. They played the game because they love it. I think it was more so back then than now because the money now is not even comparable to the 50s 60s and 70s. And I believe many of the Butkus's would still be doing it with the old rules in effect today for lesser money.
In a poll, someone asked a group of athletes this question(I paraphrase). If you could take a pill that would guarantee a gold Medal, but you'd die in 5 years, would you take it? Most said 'yes'. Clearly there is a complete disconnect between what they think they want (glory, later wealth) and what they really want (life). Same goes for boxers and MMA fighters.
You say "people have to LEARN". Yeah, good luck with that. In your experience do people who habitually make really bad life choices suddenly see the light? In my experience that only happens through an external motivation like an Intervention.
When you say football players 'love the game', I think that's a misperception. They love the rush of hitting and getting hit, and the rush of competition, mano-a-mano, not the game, per se. You could substitute another game, say, lacrosse, and the effect would be similar.
I have a boy in my class right now with a severe (football) concussion. He has been explained the consequences of getting another in the near future (an highly increased likelihood of permanent brain damage) and yet he's still DYING (bad pun) to get back out there.
Marlow wrote:In a poll, someone asked a group of athletes this question(I paraphrase). If you could take a pill that would guarantee a gold Medal, but you'd die in 5 years, would you take it? Most said 'yes'.
I take this sort of polls with a grain of salt (millions of grains, actually}. There is a huge difference between yapping fighting words to an interviewer and actually doing the deed. if the situation presented itself. This is about as believable as most polls regarding people's sexual conduct. Some embellish, some diminish, nobody is sincere.
Marlow wrote:In a poll, someone asked a group of athletes this question(I paraphrase). If you could take a pill that would guarantee a gold Medal, but you'd die in 5 years, would you take it? Most said 'yes'. Clearly there is a complete disconnect between what they think they want (glory, later wealth) and what they really want (life). Same goes for boxers and MMA fighters.
You're assuming that these folks have the same value system that you do. Has it occurred to you that there may be sane, intelligent adults in this world who don't share your value system? If someone could guarantee to you that you would have excellent health until you were 120 years old, but that you would have to spend the rest of your life living on a deserted island by yourself, would you take that deal? My point is that the quality of one's life is just as important as the quantity, and it's up to each one of us to decide what the right balance is. Obviously, some folks value the quality a lot more than you do. As Martin Luther King once said: The quality, not the longevity, of one's life is what is important.
Another thing to keep in mind is that not every former NFL football player becomes mentally and/or physically handicapped when they get older. For every Earl Campbell, there's a Sammy Baugh. They see Terry Bradshaw on TV, cracking jokes and analyzing games, in apparently good health and they say, "I'll be like him 30-40 years from now." It's the same mindset of combat soldiers. The folks who stormed the beaches of Normandy and Iwo Jima knew that casualties would be high, but they figured they would be one of the lucky ones.
jazzcyclist wrote:You're assuming that these folks have the same value system that you do. The quality, not the longevity, of one's life is what is important.
So let me make sure I've got you right. A person who would exchange a gold medal for a life ending in their mid-30s, is sane AND intelligent.
jazzcyclist wrote:You're assuming that these folks have the same value system that you do. The quality, not the longevity, of one's life is what is important.
So let me make sure I've got you right. A person who would exchange a gold medal for a life ending in their mid-30s, is sane AND intelligent.
OK.
What I'm saying is that there are mentally competent people in this world who don't share your value system, and obviously MLK was one of them. Are you so close-minded that you're incapable of seeing this? Does anything at all matter to you other than longevity? Earl Campbell has said that if he had to do it all over again, he would do the same thing? Are we to assume that he's mentally incompetent? Ferdie Pacheco, Muhammad Ali's doctor, warned him about the damage that he was doing himself, and recommended that he retire in the mid-70's. Are we to assume that Ali's insistence on continuing to fight was due to insanity?
For the record, the value that I place on my long-term health and longevity is probably similar to yours, but I don't assume that those who don't share my values are insane.
Staubach only had an 11-year career and he spent his first two years on the bench. His career was short compared to the careers of modern day quarterbacks like Peyton Manning and Tom Brady, who are in their 13th and 11th years respectively, and still in their primes, not to mention Brett Favre who is in his 20 year.
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