Roger Clemens to be Indicted Soon

[jazzcyclist]

What a tangled web we weave when first we practice to deceive.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=5476761

[guru]

With Bonds going to trial next March, and now this, Lance would do well to pay attention.

[dukehjsteve]

Among many morality lectures I was subjected to growing up, the one my mother hammered into to me was that for every lie you tell, you have to tell 20 to cover it up.

[jazzcyclist]

The biggest difference between these three is that Bonds' best friend would rather go to prison that be a rat. Clemens and Armstrong aren't so lucky.

[Friar]

Lance is like 40 IQ pts. better than The Rocket. He's a planner as they cay in the trade. Whatever happens to Lance --if anything-- it won't be handled as stupidly as Roger.

I can't believe Clem's getting lousy legal advise --though maybe he is-- and it just appears that he winging it out there and cares nothing about perjury whether it's under oath or talking to federal agents.

[lonewolf]

Among many morality lectures I was subjected to growing up, the one my mother hammered into to me was that for every lie you tell, you have to tell 20 to cover it up.

That and "if you always tell the truth, you won't have to remember what you said."
The problem, increasingly, is remembering the truth.

[jazzcyclist]

That and "if you always tell the truth, you won't have to remember what you said."
The problem, increasingly, is remembering the truth.

Keeping a lie straight is no easy task, is it?

[jazzcyclist]

Unlike Bonds and Armstrong, who some might say are the victims of witch hunts, Clemens is in this predicament because he demanded a hearing before Congress. Talk about being "hoisted on his own petard"! It's hard to feel sorry for someone who's that delusional and arrogant.

[dukehjsteve]

Reminds me of the one time I was on a jury. Small time shoplifting deal. Two credible eyewitnesses to the crime, and no valid defense whatsoever. Despite this, one lady on the jury resisted, saying, " But he said he didn't do it... why would he say that unless he didn't do it ?! "
After our first 11-1 vote we patiently explained The Facts of Life to her and she then voted Guilty.

[lonewolf]

I was on the jury for a $2500 will contest suit. Frustrating. Should have been decided from the bench without going to jury. Nevertheless it did.
Among the judges questions to be answered was: Did the deceased intend to do This or did he "merely" intend to do That. One senile lady juror confused the word "merely" with "merrily" and tied us up because she reasoned that the deceased could not have been "merry" or "happy" about his actions. She refused to accept the explanation of eleven other jurors of the definition of the two words and the judge would not allow us to have a dictionary.
I don't remember how we resolved it but we were all ready to strangle her. We would have been better off to have taken up a collection and paid the plantiff off.

[Friar]

You should do the correct things for the right reasons. But --failing that-- don't be stupid. There's a good chance you are on tape or disc somewhere. We are being watched.
Law enforcement has many tools in the 21st Century. Roger is finding this out.

A former Big East coach is currently facing a theft charge. He says he isn't guilty. I have a feeling that recorded proof will show otherwise.

[kuha]

One senile lady juror confused the word "merely" with "merrily" and tied us up because she reasoned that the deceased could not have been "merry" or "happy" about his actions. She refused to accept the explanation of eleven other jurors of the definition of the two words and the judge would not allow us to have a dictionary.
I don't remember how we resolved it but we were all ready to strangle her.

!! Sounds like a cross between Agatha Christie and Monty Python...

[Pego]

I had a close call with the jury duty once. They seated the jury with only two of us remaining in the pool.

[dukehjsteve]

I had a close call with the jury duty once. They seated the jury with only two of us remaining in the pool.

Makes me remember my one time that I got called. I was not real enthusiastic about it, but reluctantly willing to do my Patriotic Duty. But once the jury selection process started, with opposing counsels asking questions, etc., I could not help but think of it as a JOB INTERVIEW, and at that point I WANTED to be selected.... and then I was selected.

[Cooter Brown]

The only time I was called, I said that I thought everybody was guilty of something and truly decent folks are never accused of anything requiring a jury trial. I wasn't selected. Plan on using it again if I'm ever called again.

[kuha]

The only time I was called, I said that I thought everybody was guilty of something and truly decent folks are never accused of anything requiring a jury trial. I wasn't selected. Plan on using it again if I'm ever called again.

I've always been planning to use the "I believe the death penalty for jaywalking" line--of course, in today's political climate, I'd probably be treated like an average citizen instead of a lunatic.

[dukehjsteve]

Now, now, cooter and kuha, if everybody ducked out of jury duty, how could our legal system then work ?

[kuha]

Now, now, cooter and kuha, if everybody ducked out of jury duty, how could our legal system then work ?

I know, I'm not proud of this attitude, but I have it, nonetheless. My absolute nightmare is to be sequested in some 8-month case... I think I'd go beserk (never mind losing all track of my professional obligations).

I am of the feeling that we should have professional jurors in this country: people who are actually skilled in logic, forensic science, and the law. We have professional judges, after all--why not jurors? "Amateur" juries work well enough in most cases, but there have been some shocking break-downs in the system in recent memory.

(However, I don't expect you to agree with this...)

[lonewolf]

Now, now, cooter and kuha, if everybody ducked out of jury duty, how could our legal system then work ?

Based on several recent/notorious decisions, I am not sure it is working now.
Of course, there have been some horrorfic judicial decisions too.
Apparently, the only way to ensure 100% correct legal opinions is for me to assume the mantle of worldwide benevolent dictator/judge/jury/executioner.
But, I fear there would still be grumblers and, sensitive soul that I am, I cannot abide criticism..and it would be pretty time consuming.... and I have a heavy schedule of grandson soccer, basketball, x-country and OSU football/basketball coming up...
Nah, y'all just blunder on..

[lonewolf]

[
I am of the feeling that we should have professional jurors in this country: people who are actually skilled in logic, forensic science, and the law. We have professional judges, after all--why not jurors? "Amateur" juries work well enough in most cases, but there have been some shocking break-downs in the system in recent memory.

kuha, that is not a bad idea. From my one time on jury duty and observing the decisons and post trial statements of many jurors, a "jury of peers", if not a fantasy, is a dangerous thing.
Many countries have multiple judges systems, which can lead to corruption, but I am not convinced 12 people are any smarter than one smart person.. it just spreads the guilt of bad decisions.

[kuha]

[
I am of the feeling that we should have professional jurors in this country: people who are actually skilled in logic, forensic science, and the law. We have professional judges, after all--why not jurors? "Amateur" juries work well enough in most cases, but there have been some shocking break-downs in the system in recent memory.

kuha, that is not a bad idea. From my one time on jury duty and observing the decisons and post trial statements of many jurors, a "jury of peers", if not a fantasy, is a dangerous thing.
Many countries have multiple judges systems, which can lead to corruption, but I am not convinced 12 people are any smarter than one smart person.. it just spreads the guilt of bad decisions.

I'm dead serious. I think that logical thought--and relevant knowledge ofthe law and forensic science--is absolutely NOT something commonly found in a random sampling of our citizenry. And, as we've seen, it only takes one nut-ball to let someone "obviously" guity get off. The "jury of one's peers" certainly made sense in the era of citizen militias (instead of a standing army) and--I'll be realistic--even more recently than that. But now, truthfully, it just doesn't make sense on a variety of levels... My professional jurors would do it for a living--they'd need to study, pass tests, get a degree, and then face regular re-testing to be sure they were up to snuff on legal issues, etc.

[lonewolf]

[My absolute nightmare is to be sequested in some 8-month case... I think I'd go beserk (never mind losing all track of my professional obligations).

That was my fear when I was called for jury duty. There was a high profile murder case jury being empaneled at the same time. I did not know the defendant personally but, although he was also in the oil business, I was not confident I would be excused. Thinking it would be a walk-over, I abandoned my plan to get excused from the simple case so I would not be available for the murder trial. (Which did indeed last weeks/months, ending in acquital despite overwhelming public opinion and evidence of guilt)

[jazzcyclist]

Now back to the thread topic. I just heard Congressman Elijah Cummings say that he begged Clemens not to testify, but when he insisted, he warned him that if he did, he had better tell the truth. I also found out today that Brian McNamee didn't reveal that he had possession of the dirty syringes and bandages until Clemens filed a defamation suit against him and he was put in a position of having to defend himself. Clemens is a freaking idiot.

[dj]

We have professional judges, after all--why not jurors? "Amateur" juries work well enough in most cases, but there have been some shocking break-downs in the system in recent memory.

Sorry to burst the bubble, but many judges are not professional. They may earn a small salary or stipend, but frequently it's not their livelihood. And in many cases it's considerably more difficult to pass the bar and become a practicing attorney than it is to win an election to become a muni judge.

A runner I once coached almost won a county judge's chair a year before he finished law school.

[lonewolf]

[Sorry to burst the bubble, but many judges are not professional.

A sad truth... but, they should be..and, even if they presumably are, there is no assurance of justice.
I personally, as plantiff in a civil case, was the victim of an entrenched rural county judge who , throughout the trial,joked from the bench about her lifelong relationship with the local opposing attorney before rendering an unconscionable decision that necessitated another trial and beaucoup dollars to get reversed.
At the second trial, before a different judge, I took the precaution of hiring a local attorney, whose only qualification was that he was a law school classmate of the presiding judge, to sit at my table. He knew nothing about the facts of the case and said not a word, except howdy to the judge. It was an easy payday for him but he earned it. I won.
No significance but my local hire attorney was killed in an automobile accident a week later enroute from his office to the courthouse.

[kuha]

[Sorry to burst the bubble, but many judges are not professional.

A sad truth... but, they should be..

I guess I was aware of that...but the fact that "not all" are professionals must be balanced against the fact that many (most? I don't know) ARE. The larger point is that these judges perform their duties with some regularity and--one would like to hope--get "good" at the job. That's still a completely different scenario than the juror pool, which is mostly all "virgins" every time.

P.S. No need to worry about my bubbles. They're bursting all the time; I'm used to it.

[dj]

All I'm saying is "the whole trial is out of order."

Judicial reform--if you think it's required--goes beyond jury selection and should involve judicial selection.

[kuha]

That's fine, but the particular point we were pummeling to death was jury duty....ergo, my focus on jury duty/jury selection.

[Cooter Brown]

Now, now, cooter and kuha, if everybody ducked out of jury duty, how could our legal system then work ?

Not my problem. It's for criminals.

Regardless, you really don't want me on a jury. I have about a 20 minute attention span before I'm zoning out. I would probably just go along with the what ever the jurors before me vote.

[guru]

Interview with Pete Rose on Clemens.

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/commenta ... ard/100826

Clemens arraignment Monday(8/30)

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/stor ... BHeadlines

[gh]

[....
Regardless, you really don't want me on a jury. I have about a 20 minute attention span before I'm zoning out. I would probably just go along with the what ever the jurors before me vote.

I'd be terrible. I have trouble imagining sitting for more than hour without having to take a leak. Very few movies I've been to in my life where I didn't have to suss out a dull spot in the middle and dash out. I can hold it longer than that, of course, but once that urge hits, my mind pretty much focuses on keeping the spigot shut.

[kuha]

I'd be terrible. I have trouble imagining sitting for more than hour without having to take a leak. Very few movies I've been to in my life where I didn't have to suss out a dull spot in the middle and dash out. I can hold it longer than that, of course, but once that urge hits, my mind pretty much focuses on keeping the spigot shut.

Granted that you can probably watch all of a fast 10,000. But how about a slow & tactical one?

[Daisy]

If he pleads guilty what would his sentence be?

[Friar]

what would his sentence be?

I think they said the guideline was 15 months but it's judge's discretion. If he acted like himself during the trial --an idiot-- he could get more.

[lonewolf]

[I'd be terrible. I have trouble imagining sitting for more than hour without having to take a leak.

Us old folks have discovered they got pills for that.