Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong


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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby guru » Fri Jul 16, 2010 8:09 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
guru wrote:
So by that line of reasoning I suppose we should have given Marion Jones a pass too?


The moral to MJ story was not that drugs work, but don't leave a paper trail and watch who you hang out with. And as we also know she wasn't alone in doing PEDs then, but, hey, she was well known and a great target.



No, the moral to her story is don't launder drug(heroin) money, and don't lie to federal agents about it.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby TrainerPhil » Sat Jul 17, 2010 7:15 am

It looks like it's just a matter of time now. I have a feeling Armstrong is going to come "clean" and admit to all the wrong doing. I can't imagine him continuing to deny this all for much longer.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Jul 17, 2010 7:40 am

guru wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:
guru wrote:The moral to MJ story was not that drugs work, but don't leave a paper trail and watch who you hang out with. And as we also know she wasn't alone in doing PEDs then, but, hey, she was well known and a great target.



No, the moral to her story is don't launder drug(heroin) money, and don't lie to federal agents about it.

I reckon that Andy Pettitte and Jason Giambi would say that the real lesson of this story is that the truth will set you free.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Jul 17, 2010 8:58 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
I reckon that Andy Pettitte and Jason Giambi would say that the real lesson of this story is that the truth will set you free.


Yes, if you are a baseball player, and with the Yankees, it is possible. A disposable Olympian? Forget it.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby guru » Sun Jul 18, 2010 6:29 pm

Armstrong starting to sweat.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 91506.html


When someone who says they're above the fray suddenly isn't, it's time to watch closely.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby Conor Dary » Sun Jul 18, 2010 6:45 pm

guru wrote:Armstrong starting to sweat.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 91506.html


When someone who says they're above the fray suddenly isn't, it's time to watch closely.


Sorry, but nothing new. LeMond and Armstrong have despised each other for years, and this exchange has been repeated many times. And on LeMond's part I believe it is envy, like some other people I don't have to mention.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby guru » Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:12 pm

As far as I know, this is new.

Lance Armstrong returned fire at three-time Tour de France champion Greg LeMond, challenging him to "tell the truth" about Mr. LeMond's second Tour victory, in 1989.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Jul 18, 2010 7:16 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
guru wrote:Armstrong starting to sweat.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142 ... 91506.html


When someone who says they're above the fray suddenly isn't, it's time to watch closely.


Sorry, but nothing new. LeMond and Armstrong have despised each other for years, and this exchange has been repeated many times. And on LeMond's part I believe it is envy, like some other people I don't have to mention.

I don't think it's necessarily envy, but I also don't think LeMond is being fair. You see this same attitude with older baseball players who take this holier-than-thou attitude towards the steroid era baseball players. Of course those old timers didn't do steroids and HGH because those drugs weren't around during their era, but they certainly had no qualms about doing greenies which were also an FDA-controlled substance that they obtained illegally. To their credit, Bob Gibson and Mike Schmidt have enough self awareness to admit that probably the only reason they didn't do steroids is because they didn't play in the steroid era. Similarly, the question I would ask LeMond is: "Are you sure you wouldn't have done EPO if you had ridden in the EPO era, when practically everyone in the peleton was doing it?"
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Jul 19, 2010 8:18 am

Jazz, yes, envy might be too strong a word, but there is some there, along with his annoying holier-than-thou attitude. And this clash with Armstrong has gone on since the 90's. I think it is also interesting that Eddy Merckx and Armstrong are long time great friends, which tells you something right there.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:28 am

Uh oh! Tyler Hamilton is talking.

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/n ... id=5399613

And Lance has hired a criminal defense lawyer.

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/38354912/ ... de_france/
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby Brian » Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:35 pm

guru wrote:As far as I know, this is new.

Lance Armstrong returned fire at three-time Tour de France champion Greg LeMond, challenging him to "tell the truth" about Mr. LeMond's second Tour victory, in 1989.



Well, LeMond certainly had some extra weight helping him on the downhills, with all that buckshot riding along inside him.

I agree with guru, though, that this has taken on a new zeal. LeMond smelling blood, perhaps.

Whether right or wrong, LeMond isn't making himself look like a champion on any counts.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby guru » Fri Jul 23, 2010 7:42 pm

Floyd Landis interviewed on Nightline tonight(Friday 7/23).

http://abcnews.go.com/Nightline/video/n ... g-11234062
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby jkjoregon » Sat Jul 24, 2010 7:37 pm

From Cycling news, read the Floyd Landis letter for yourself.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showthread.php?t=7473

Pretty damning with the level of detail. :shock:
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Jul 25, 2010 5:26 am

It was kind of strange to see Frankie Andreu's wife being interviewed on Nightline at precisely the same time he was conducting interviews and reporting from the Tour de France. IMO, Floyd Landis is a low-life. Is their no honor among thieves? If he felt like he needed to confess his own sins in order to cleanse his soul that's one thing, but ratting out other folks is despicable. When Paul Hornung got caught gambling on NFL football games in the 1960's, he told Pete Rozelle that he would tell him everything he wanted to know about what he did, but don't ask him about what any other players did because he wasn't a rat. Greg LeMond's behavior is unbecoming for a great champion. You don't see Eddy Merckx, Bernard Hinault and Miguel Indurain walking around with LeMond's holier-than-thou attitude, despite the fact that they no doubt have a pretty good idea of the rampant drug use taking place in the peleton from the early 90's to the mid 00's. They take the high road, stay above the fray and conduct themselves as true ambassadors of the sport. Compare LeMond to Hank Aaron, who gave a gracious congratulatory speech to Barry Bonds on the night he hit his 756th home run. You don't see Aaron and Willie Mays ragging on the steroid-era baseball players who have passed or will pass them in the record books.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby Conor Dary » Sun Jul 25, 2010 8:52 am

jazzcyclist wrote:It was kind of strange to see Frankie Andreu's wife being interviewed on Nightline at precisely the same time he was conducting interviews and reporting from the Tour de France. IMO, Floyd Landis is a low-life. Is their no honor among thieves? If he felt like he needed to confess his own sins in order to cleanse his soul that's one thing, but ratting out other folks is despicable. When Paul Hornung got caught gambling on NFL football games in the 1960's, he told Pete Rozelle that he would tell him everything he wanted to know about what he did, but don't ask him about what any other players did because he wasn't a rat. Greg LeMond's behavior is unbecoming for a great champion. You don't see Eddy Merckx, Bernard Hinault and Miguel Indurain walking around with LeMond's holier-than-thou attitude, despite the fact that they no doubt have a pretty good idea of the rampant drug use taking place in the peleton from the early 90's to the mid 00's. They take the high road, stay above the fray and conduct themselves as true ambassadors of the sport. Compare LeMond to Hank Aaron, who gave a gracious congratulatory speech to Barry Bonds on the night he hit his 756th home run. You don't see Aaron and Willie Mays ragging on the steroid-era baseball players who have passed or will pass them in the record books.


I agree once again. No one lower than Landis, but LeMond is definitely doing his best to lower himself into the gutter.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby 502CD » Sun Jul 25, 2010 10:26 am

It's a shame that the two biggest names in US cycling have this hate towards each other that gets spilled into the news.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby gh » Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:29 am

Armstrong's lawyers say USADA is offering deals to other riders to rat him out.

Story linked on front page.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby jkjoregon » Tue Aug 03, 2010 8:53 am

Hamilton, Leipheimer, Hincapie and Zabriskie are in a tough spot.

-Sing like a sparrow.

-Deny and face likely perjury charges

-Take the 5th.

What would you do? :?
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Aug 03, 2010 9:37 am

jkjoregon wrote:Hamilton, Leipheimer, Hincapie and Zabriskie are in a tough spot.

-Sing like a sparrow.

-Deny and face likely perjury charges

-Take the 5th.

What would you do? :?

Perjury would be out of the question for me, and taking the fifth is not an option if you're offered immunity. Hamilton is out of cycling and Leipheimer and Hincappie are in the twilight of their careers. Zabriskie is in a more precarious situation since he has a lot of good years ahead of him. Perhaps he could confess to old sins and get the same UCI amnesty deal that Erik Zabel was given.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby jkjoregon » Tue Aug 03, 2010 10:52 am

Scenario:
So you enter the federal prosecutor arena, intent on saying as little as possible except not wanting to obviously perjure yourself. You would not like to break omerta.

But, you have no idea what other riders have told the prosecutors. You are a bicylist- a good one- but used to no more grilling than a 3 minute sycophantic television interview. They are grizzled federal prosecutors that will question and cross question you for two days. They take a dim view of lying, or selective memory, or changing a story in mid stream.


First question: " three of your colleagues present have told us that all the riders- including you- received blood on the bus -- what can you tell us? We would like to remind you that you are under oath."

And your answer?
:?: :shock: :cry: :oops: :( :shock:
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby guru » Thu Aug 05, 2010 5:54 am

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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Aug 05, 2010 6:20 am

This morning, ESPN's Mike & Mike both concluded that even if the G-men do get Armstrong, most Americans will give him a pass because he's in a sport that most Americans don't care about. However, if that was true, Marion Jones would have also gotten a pass. If Lance gets a pass, I think it will be partly because of the good will he has built up as the point man in the global fight against cancer and partly because of the good ole fashion Francophobia that many Americans wear as a badge of honor.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby Dutra » Thu Aug 05, 2010 8:21 am

jazzcyclist wrote:This morning, ESPN's Mike & Mike both concluded that even if the G-men do get Armstrong, most Americans will give him a pass because he's in a sport that most Americans don't care about. However, if that was true, Marion Jones would have also gotten a pass. If Lance gets a pass, I think it will be partly because of the good will he has built up as the point man in the global fight against cancer and partly because of the good ole fashion Francophobia that many Americans wear as a badge of honor.


I had a conversation with a cyclist who has a cursory interest in distance running...pretty much the exact opposite of me...the other day and he was very very staunch in his defense of Lance. He initially blamed everyone for Lance's potential issues including the French and the other riders but by the time we got to the end of the conversation I had him at least admitting to me that there's a real good chance that Lance used PEDs during his riding career.

However, he then allowed for the fact that Lance has probably done more good than bad for the world even if he did use PEDs.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:07 am

jazzcyclist wrote:This morning, ESPN's Mike & Mike both concluded that even if the G-men do get Armstrong, most Americans will give him a pass because he's in a sport that most Americans don't care about. However, if that was true, Marion Jones would have also gotten a pass. If Lance gets a pass, I think it will be partly because of the good will he has built up as the point man in the global fight against cancer and partly because of the good ole fashion Francophobia that many Americans wear as a badge of honor.


Remember there was a little more to the Jones case than just drugs.

"Co-conspirators orchestrated a scheme to defraud numerous banks out of millions of dollars through, among other means, the deposit of stolen, altered and counterfeit checks into various bank accounts they controlled. The investigation has resulted in the convictions, in this and related cases, of more than 20 individuals, including Montgomery (with whom Jones-Thompson had a romantic relationship), Riddick (who was Jones-Thompson and Montgomery's former coach) and Charles Wells, the former sports agent for Jones-Thompson and Montgomery."

http://www.ice.gov/pi/news/newsreleases ... ewyork.htm

Personally I don't think the public cares that much about the whole drug thing, whether it is in baseball players, track stars or cyclists. The whole false outrage is driven by radio and tv jocks who just crave controversy.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby guru » Thu Aug 05, 2010 9:36 am

Conor Dary wrote:Remember there was a little more to the Jones case than just drugs.



As there is with Armstrong.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby Conor Dary » Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:07 am

guru wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:Remember there was a little more to the Jones case than just drugs.



As there is with Armstrong.


What exactly, except for, possibly, selling a few bikes and parts? And even if true who did it.

But some folks just love a controversy.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:43 am

I don't put Armstrong in the same boat with Marion Jones, since everything that he's accused of seems to have been done for the purpose of getting a competitive advantage in his sport. Jones's check fraud scheme seems to have been done for the purpose of providing a major source of income, not to enhance her performce on the track. Furthermore, unlike the banks that filed charges against Jones and her cohorts, Trek seems to have no interest in going after Armstrong for the illegal sale of its bicycles.

I believe that in the long run, the best thing Armstrong can do is take a page out of the Andy Pettitte playbook and make the whole thing go away, but my guess is that his ego and short-term vision will lead him to follow the playbook of his fellow Texan Roger Clemens.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby catson52 » Thu Aug 05, 2010 10:54 am

Is it too naive to want all "drug" users (cheaters) to be outed and their names removed from the record books? Obviously there are a large number that have not been "caught" and probably never will. But Armstrong's case has been suspected ("known") for many years, as with others like Marion Jones, Barry Bonds, to name just a few.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby guru » Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:30 am

Conor Dary wrote:
guru wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:Remember there was a little more to the Jones case than just drugs.



As there is with Armstrong.


What exactly, except for, possibly, selling a few bikes and parts?



Which was used to fund the doping program of the US Postal team.


And even if true who did it.



That is why we have an investigation.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby guru » Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:34 am

jazzcyclist wrote:IFurthermore, unlike the banks that filed charges against Jones and her cohorts, Trek seems to have no interest in going after Armstrong for the illegal sale of its bicycles.


lol, and why is that? :roll:

This isn't about Trek. It's about using funds from an independant agency of the US government(USPS) to fund illegal activities.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby 26mi235 » Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:49 am

And by winning more they badly hurt the image of the US Postal Service?
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Aug 05, 2010 11:57 am

guru wrote:This isn't about Trek. It's about using funds from an independant agency of the US government(USPS) to fund illegal activities.

I didn't know that Trek was part of a government agency, I thought they were a private entity that donated bikes to U.S. Postal. Are you saying that those bikes became government property after Trek donated them? If the bikes had not been sold, how would the government's bottom line have been any different?
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:05 pm

catson52 wrote:Is it too naive to want all "drug" users (cheaters) to be outed and their names removed from the record books? Obviously there are a large number that have not been "caught" and probably never will. But Armstrong's case has been suspected ("known") for many years, as with others like Marion Jones, Barry Bonds, to name just a few.

I don't lump Bonds in with Armstrong and Jones for two reasons:

    1) Unlike Jones, Bonds has never been sanctioned by his sport's governing body or convicted in a court of law for using PED's.
    2) Unlike Jones and Armstrong, Bonds' sport had no drug testing/enforcement program at the time he is alleged to have used PED's, and without rules, there can be no cheating.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby unclezadok » Thu Aug 05, 2010 12:54 pm

Today they are talking about a "former teammate" of Armstrong's who says blah blah blah whatever. I assume the former teammate is, again, Landis.
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby guru » Thu Aug 05, 2010 1:16 pm

unclezadok wrote:Today they are talking about a "former teammate" of Armstrong's who says blah blah blah whatever. I assume the former teammate is, again, Landis.



Not Landis.

From New York Times story link several posts up -


The rider, who has never tested positive for performance-enhancing drugs or methods, asked that his name not be used because investigators advised him not to speak publicly about the information he provided. He has not been called before the grand jury that has been convened in Los Angeles to investigate the case.

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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Aug 06, 2010 4:58 am

This morning while discussing the Lance Armstrong saga, Mike Grolick admitted using steroids when he played in the NFL, but of course he qualified his drug use by adding that he "only did it to recover from an injury". It amazes me at how these sports hypocrites believe they can absolve themselves of rules violations and law breaking if they have good enough excuses. It's like a bank robber telling a judge that he only did it because he had been laid off from his job and he was trying to prevent his house from being foreclosed upon. :roll:
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby Pego » Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:29 am

jazzcyclist wrote:It's like a bank robber telling a judge that he only did it because he had been laid off from his job and he was trying to prevent his house from being foreclosed upon.


What about a guy that killed both of his parents and now is begging mercy from the court, because he is an orphan :wink: ?
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby lonewolf » Fri Aug 06, 2010 8:34 am

Pego wrote:[What about a guy that killed both of his parents and now is begging mercy from the court, because he is an orphan :wink: ?

Isn't that the definitive example of "chutzpah"?
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby Marlow » Sun Aug 29, 2010 12:07 pm

Saw this sign today and immediately thought of Lance

Image
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Re: Columnist looks at "trolls" who are anti-Armstrong

Postby 26mi235 » Sun Aug 29, 2010 1:29 pm

He was in town this weekend but I did not join the throng to see him.
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