Heaven and Hell...


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Heaven and Hell...

Postby lovetorun » Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:23 am

Most Christians believe in a judgement by God at the end of this life that will send us to either Heaven or Hell. But, my experience is that most people are neither really good or really bad, but a mixture of somewhere inbetween. So, how valid could the Heaven or Hell judgement be? I believe that John 14:2 has it right... "In my Father's house are many mansions"... I go to prepare a place for you".

So, what's with the Heaven and Hell thing?
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby mrbowie » Sat Jul 03, 2010 9:27 am

Christianity, if written today from scratch, would be a completely different religion, one that could take into account all the enlightenment that modernity has brought into the world.

We are not living at a time that predates the Dark Ages.

There is no evidence of any kind that there is a god, let alone a heaven or hell.

These are man-made fantasies born out of ignorance an a desire to control people that do not know any better.

Same holds true for Judiasm as well.

Let's get real folks.
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby TN1965 » Sat Jul 03, 2010 10:54 am

My understanding is that one's faith matters more than one's deeds.

So you can go to heaven as long as you sincerely repent everything bad you did. But you go to hell for the slightest infraction if you don't repent.

And many Christians today (at least in the US) seem to believe that openly talking about their faith (as loudly as possible) is the way to make sure that their faith is not overlooked. But if the higher power is omniscent (as it is assumed), why should that even be necessary? God should know about your faith whether you are vocal or not.
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby Marlow » Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:05 am

mrbowie wrote:There is no evidence of any kind that there is a god, let alone a heaven or hell.

OK, I'll be the devils' advocate (pun!)

I would suggest our very existence is proof of an eternal, infinite Prime Mover (for Whom there was NO first cause). It makes zero scientific sense for there to have always been matter, but it does make 'spiritual' (in the loosest possible sense) sense to believe that 'something' always existed.

I choose to believe (as opposed to 'knowing') that the infinite/eternal Prime Mover is what most consider God. Ergo, there IS a God (but not in the way that ANY organized religion worships). But I also choose to believe that there can be no devil (Satan) because Good and Evil are only relativistic human constructs. Therefore Satan is a human invention (the same way as organized religions invented their God). Therefore Hell cannot exist. But, in the same way God exists (as the order, harmony and balance of the Multiverse), Heaven exists. Consequently heaven must be being at one with God, which obviously can only exist outside of Earthly existence (which is deeply flawed).

OK, now my head hurts a lot . . .
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby kuha » Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:08 am

Marlow wrote:I would suggest our very existence is proof of an eternal, infinite Prime Mover (for Whom there was NO first cause).


But....your fundamental premise is neither necessary nor logical.
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby Marlow » Sat Jul 03, 2010 11:24 am

kuha wrote:
Marlow wrote:I would suggest our very existence is proof of an eternal, infinite Prime Mover (for Whom there was NO first cause).

But....your fundamental premise is neither necessary nor logical.

I see it as the ONLY rational possibility.
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby Pego » Sat Jul 03, 2010 2:52 pm

One question for you, Marlow. Have you ever been able to persuade one, just one, person of the validity of your theology?
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby Marlow » Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:40 pm

Pego wrote:One question for you, Marlow. Have you ever been able to persuade one, just one, person of the validity of your theology?

Actually hundreds, but they were all students of mine who had made no prior attempt to confront our existence. Hopefully they've all moved on by now, as my beliefs are trademarked and I don't allow anyone else to keep them! :twisted:
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby Pego » Sat Jul 03, 2010 3:57 pm

Marlow wrote:
Pego wrote:One question for you, Marlow. Have you ever been able to persuade one, just one, person of the validity of your theology?

Actually hundreds, but they were all students of mine who had made no prior attempt to confront our existence. Hopefully they've all moved on by now, as my beliefs are trademarked and I don't allow anyone else to keep them! :twisted:


I am sure, their God-fearing Christian parents must have been thrilled :wink: .
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby jhc68 » Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:20 pm

I'm pretty certain that heaven and hell are ideas that people invented.
On the other hand I am absolutely certain that nothing on earth is more tiresome than listening to people who are smugly convinced that THEY are going to heaven. If there is a heaven I hope that a just God disqualifies those tiresome idiots from being admitted so they don't bore everyone to insanity for all eternity.
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby Marlow » Sat Jul 03, 2010 4:44 pm

Pego wrote:I am sure, their God-fearing Christian parents must have been thrilled :wink: .

THAT is a touchy subject, since MOST of their parents ARE God-fearing Christians, and I don't fit that stereotype whatsoever (although I do shape my life on a Christian ethos). But every single parent that has discussed this aspect of my class (the first two weeks, to be exact) thank me for making their kids confront the Imponderables. Being an unquestioning believer of ANYTHING (Higher Power or NOT) is simply wasting one's mind.
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby SQUACKEE » Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:25 am

A being that cant be seen or heard but will punish you for eternity for not believing he does exist is the stoopidest thing i can imagine, no really it takes the cake.

I do understand why people do believe but i dont understand a loving God punishing a non believer. It's total bullshit made up by men.

The church needs this heaven and hell thing to propagate their business and the God business is pretty darn successful.
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby dukehjsteve » Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:39 am

Religion has done many, many good things for society throughout history. Religion sadly has also been responsible for centuries of hatred, intolerance, and death. Do they balance evenly or tilt one way or the other ? Not for me to say.

But my opinion, albeit very humble, is that since the beginning of humanity's term on this earth we have invented and reinvented Religion to help explain our fears and ignorances. Is this bad ? See my first paragraph.

Is the apparent infinity of time and space currently unexplainable ? Yes it is. Maybe 2000 years from now we'll have a scientific explanation... we keep learning and understanding more as time moves on. The more we have learned scientifically, the less we have had to explain purely through religious faith. This trend is inexorable.
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby kuha » Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:51 am

dukehjsteve wrote:But my opinion, albeit very humble, is that since the beginning of humanity's term on this earth we have invented and reinvented Religion to help explain our fears and ignorances.


We are basically hard-wired for "belief." That is, our in-built mental machinery is constantly seeking connections and "explanations"--and if it can't find them, it creates them. There is nothing more basic and understandable than the creation of a super-father-figure to explain "it all." To the degree that this is the product of our conceptual machinery, it is "real" (for us); to the degree that it conforms with material reality, it is utterly imaginary, nothing more than a Platonic idea. One more reminder that ideas have huge consequences...
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby dukehjsteve » Sun Jul 04, 2010 5:52 am

Whenever something wonderful happens many say, " God answered our prayers." But when something awful happens, these same people say, " Well, that was God's plan."

In other words, they give God credit for the good things, but make excuses for him for the bad things.
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby SQUACKEE » Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:05 am

dukehjsteve wrote:Whenever something wonderful happens many say, " God answered our prayers." But when something awful happens, these same people say, " Well, that was God's plan."

In other words, they give God credit for the good things, but make excuses for him for the bad things.


The only explanation, if there is a God, is that he is not involved in any way in anything that takes place here. Monsters go unpunished and thrive and Jewish Babies are gassed to death.

The believers say God will punish in due time and i say it makes more sense that he doesnt exist.
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby Marlow » Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:15 am

The anthropomorphization of God is the biggest impediment to our understanding of Him (I just did it!). He CAN'T be anything we could understand, so imputing him with human abilities like hearing, seeing, thinking, deciding, etc., is what keeps Him from us. He is EVERYTHING - there is no sentience, as we understand it (IMXHO).
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby kuha » Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:19 am

Marlow wrote:The anthropomorphization of God is the biggest impediment to our understanding of Him (I just did it!). He CAN'T be anything we could understand, so imputing him with human abilities like hearing, seeing, thinking, deciding, etc., is what keeps Him from us. He is EVERYTHING - there is no sentience, as we understand it (IMXHO).


Then why do you use the word "He" here?

If you're saying that God = Nature/the cosmos, Spinoza made that case very beautifully several centuries ago.
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby Pego » Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:29 am

kuha wrote:
Marlow wrote:The anthropomorphization of God is the biggest impediment to our understanding of Him (I just did it!). He CAN'T be anything we could understand, so imputing him with human abilities like hearing, seeing, thinking, deciding, etc., is what keeps Him from us. He is EVERYTHING - there is no sentience, as we understand it (IMXHO).


Then why do you use the word "He" here?

If you're saying that God = Nature/the cosmos, Spinoza made that case very beautifully several centuries ago.


It is quite interesting that the pantheism, intellectually so attractive, has historically commanded relatively little following.
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby Marlow » Sun Jul 04, 2010 8:58 am

Pego wrote:
kuha wrote:
Marlow wrote:The anthropomorphization of God is the biggest impediment to our understanding of Him (I just did it!). He CAN'T be anything we could understand, so imputing him with human abilities like hearing, seeing, thinking, deciding, etc., is what keeps Him from us. He is EVERYTHING - there is no sentience, as we understand it (IMXHO).

Then why do you use the word "He" here?
If you're saying that God = Nature/the cosmos, Spinoza made that case very beautifully several centuries ago.

It is quite interesting that the pantheism, intellectually so attractive, has historically commanded relatively little following.

I use the word He as a convenience. God is neither he, nor she, nor it. He is not an entity at all. Our understanding of Him is the same understanding a knee has of being part of the body. This is not pantheism (which has always finished well behind in the religion sweepstakes because it offers no comforting Big Daddy looking out for us, which we so desperately want); it is an understanding of the interconnectedness of everything. This knowledge requires no prayer or worship, just 'understanding', so everyone realizes that when they are doing bad things they are affecting everything, including themselves (a karma-y sort of thing, but in the general sense, not the 'what goes around comes around' kind of immediacy).

Spinoza was merely prescient . . . :twisted:
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby kuha » Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:02 am

dup
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby kuha » Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:10 am

kuha wrote:
Marlow wrote:[I use the word He as a convenience. God is neither he, nor she, nor it. He is not an entity at all. Our understanding of Him is the same understanding a knee has of being part of the body. This is not pantheism (which has always finished well behind in the religion sweepstakes because it offers no comforting Big Daddy looking out for us, which we so desperately want); it is an understanding of the interconnectedness of everything. This knowledge requires no prayer or worship, just 'understanding', so everyone realizes that when they are doing bad things they are affecting everything, including themselves (a karma-y sort of thing, but in the general sense, not the 'what goes around comes around' kind of immediacy). Spinoza was merely prescient . . . :twisted:


If by "merely prescient" you mean "towering, staggering genius" then I agree completely. Of course, he was also considered to be an out-and-out athiest in his day. In truth, what you're describing above (which is hard for anyone to disagree with) IS a fundamentally pantheistic doctrine; it would have been (would be today) rejected utterly by those with orthodox religious views
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby Marlow » Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:10 am

kuha wrote: what you're describing above (which is hard for anyone to disagree with) has next to nothing to do with orthodox religious thought.

That was my entering argument ('organized religion' has it wrong). But I do believe in God (tho I don't understand much at all about Him), and I do try to live by the Christian ethos, so if I believe in God and call myself a Christian, ain't I right in the middle of the bell curve of Murkans?! :twisted:
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby kuha » Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:21 am

Marlow wrote:ain't I right in the middle of the bell curve of Murkans?! :twisted:


To the degree that you value personal belief/interpretation over "official doctrine," yes, certainly. But it's interesting exactly how much of that "common-knowledge" doctrine you have pitched overboard.

For whatever it's worth, the astonishingly complex foundation of American religious thought is described pretty nicely in E. Brooks Holifield's book "Theology in America: Christian Thought from the Age of the Puritans to the Civil War" (Yale U. Press, 2003). It's a fascinating, if crazily tangled, history...
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby Marlow » Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:07 am

kuha wrote: It's a fascinating, if crazily tangled...

Zackly like my brain!
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby TN1965 » Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:58 am

jhc68 wrote:I'm pretty certain that heaven and hell are ideas that people invented.
On the other hand I am absolutely certain that nothing on earth is more tiresome than listening to people who are smugly convinced that THEY are going to heaven. If there is a heaven I hope that a just God disqualifies those tiresome idiots from being admitted so they don't bore everyone to insanity for all eternity.


Hell may not be such a bad place if it does not have any of those self-righteous people.
:wink:
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby SQUACKEE » Sun Jul 04, 2010 11:56 am

I find cocky self righteous atheists as repugnant as true believers. We are pitiful little creatures who dont have a clue why we are here.
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby mojo » Sun Jul 04, 2010 12:55 pm

SQUACKEE wrote:I find cocky self righteous atheists as repugnant as true believers. We are pitiful little creatures who dont have a clue why we are here.



I know I am here to eat warm apple pie with ice cream, stalk Andreas Thorkildsen, and avoid wackos like you.

Who says atheists don't know the meaning of life?
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby SQUACKEE » Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:03 pm

mojo wrote:
SQUACKEE wrote:I find cocky self righteous atheists as repugnant as true believers. We are pitiful little creatures who dont have a clue why we are here.



I know I am here to eat warm apple pie with ice cream, stalk Andreas Thorkildsen, and avoid wackos like you.

Who says atheists don't know the meaning of life?


My good lady, you do realize that being an Atheist is a act of faith. You dont KNOW there is no God, you have faith there is no God, except Andy of course! I have no faith in anything except love, love is the answer. Coo coo cha chew.
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby mojo » Sun Jul 04, 2010 1:30 pm

How dare you call him Andy! You blasphemous swine?

If love is the answer then I am a know it all. :D
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby dukehjsteve » Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:16 pm

SQUACKEE wrote:I find cocky self righteous atheists as repugnant as true believers. We are pitiful little creatures who dont have a clue why we are here.


Your key words above are "cocky self righteous" .... the "atheists" and "true believers" part is not even needed.


Having said that I do believe there are more cocky self righteous True Believers than there are cocky self righteous Atheists, both as a whole number and as a percentage. And one reason for this is that many Atheists are In The Closet, fearing discrimination from the True Believers. It is Politically Correct to be a True Believer, and it is very very Politically INcorrect to be an Atheist.

I also think there are millions and millions of people that go to church that don't know what they think.... they are just going through the motions to be, yes, here it is again, Politically Correct. This probably includes are very large percentage of our Presidents and other political bigwigs.
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby Marlow » Sun Jul 04, 2010 3:27 pm

dukehjsteve wrote:many Atheists are In The Closet, fearing discrimination from the True Believers. It is Politically Correct to be a True Believer, and it is very very Politically INcorrect to be an Atheist.

I think you'll find that in many (most?) colleges, it's the other way around.

as my final word on the subject, I would like to say that I have no freakin idea what the Real Truth is about God (if He exists) and I believe with all my heart that no one else can either.
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby SQUACKEE » Sun Jul 04, 2010 4:07 pm

Marlow wrote:(if He exists) and I believe with all my heart that no one else can either.


IMO thats not a belief its a fact
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby lovetorun » Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:05 pm

The query of my start to this thread got lost in other discussion...but, that's O.K. I know how most of these go...

But here's my belief...truth does exist, immutable truth that we need to seek, find and embrace i.e. live our lives in harmony with what is real. This comes through the gospel of Jesus Christ. And when we embrace this truth, God, by His grace through the atonement of His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, will enable us to become like Him and to receive all that He has.
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby SQUACKEE » Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:14 pm

lovetorun wrote:The query of my start to this thread got lost in other discussion...but, that's O.K. I know how most of these go...

But here's my belief...truth does exist, immutable truth that we need to seek, find and embrace i.e. live our lives in harmony with what is real. This comes through the gospel of Jesus Christ. And when we embrace this truth, God, by His grace through the atonement of His only begotten Son, Jesus Christ, will enable us to become like Him and to receive all that He has.


God bless you Lovetorun. I envy your faith but have none of my own, that is my fate. I was confirmed as a Lutheran but it didn't last. There are some beautiful and kind believers and also non-believers. If there is a God he will have to sort it all out and if God doesn't exist................well as i often say about everything...I don't think it matters.
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby Daisy » Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:28 pm

SQUACKEE wrote:You dont KNOW there is no God, you have faith there is no God

Faith or indifference?
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby TN1965 » Sun Jul 04, 2010 7:07 pm

Marlow wrote:
dukehjsteve wrote:many Atheists are In The Closet, fearing discrimination from the True Believers. It is Politically Correct to be a True Believer, and it is very very Politically INcorrect to be an Atheist.

I think you'll find that in many (most?) colleges, it's the other way around.


Having taught at seven different colleges/universities in five states (NC, OH, IL, WA and MO), all I can say is "it depends." And once you step outside of the college campus, it's an entirely different world.
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby TN1965 » Sun Jul 04, 2010 7:10 pm

Daisy wrote:
SQUACKEE wrote:You dont KNOW there is no God, you have faith there is no God

Faith or indifference?


If you were indifferent, you would be agnostic rather than atheist.
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby jhc68 » Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:41 pm

I should specify that I do not place my long-time friend lovetorun in the category I chastised in a previous post (the smug, obnoxious people who are cocksure that they are heaven-bound). I haven't seen him in decades but I know with certainty that Lovetorun is a thoughtful, generous, humble person with serious beliefs that I respect a great deal. I may not share his faith but I know lives an exemplary life.

My basic belief is that if we all made a consistent effort to live ethically and gracefully then heaven and hell (both being essentially unknowable to us) need not concern us. We'll either go to one place or the other or not, but we'll have made a contribution during this short time we spend here on Earth.
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Re: Heaven and Hell...

Postby Pego » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:30 am

TN1965 wrote:
Daisy wrote:
SQUACKEE wrote:You dont KNOW there is no God, you have faith there is no God

Faith or indifference?


If you were indifferent, you would be agnostic rather than atheist.


What about neither faith, nor indifference, but a demand for observable evidence?
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