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gh
Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 31252
Location: with Suzanne, near her place by the river
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 Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 12:40 pm Post subject: Gay and the 4x1 |
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| OK, as somebody noted the other day, the board is slow. How slow? We posted a "scoop" to the front page yesterday that had the U.S. not done its now-traditional baton-goof in the heats, Tyson Gay would have run the leadoff leg in Berlin. And nobody even commented on it! |
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Avante
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 333
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:06 pm Post subject: Re: Gay and the 4x1 |
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| gh wrote: | | OK, as somebody noted the other day, the board is slow. How slow? We posted a "scoop" to the front page yesterday that had the U.S. not done its now-traditional baton-goof in the heats, Tyson Gay would have run the leadoff leg in Berlin. And nobody even commented on it! |
If Gay is anywhere besides the anchor leg it's over once Bolt gets the baton on that third leg. What twosome deals with Usain Bolt to Asafa Powell? |
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TrackDaddy
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 3037
Location: The Command Post
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:43 pm Post subject: Re: Gay and the 4x1 |
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| Avante wrote: | | gh wrote: | | OK, as somebody noted the other day, the board is slow. How slow? We posted a "scoop" to the front page yesterday that had the U.S. not done its now-traditional baton-goof in the heats, Tyson Gay would have run the leadoff leg in Berlin. And nobody even commented on it! |
If Gay is anywhere besides the anchor leg it's over once Bolt gets the baton on that third leg. What twosome deals with Usain Bolt to Asafa Powell? |
The idea (obviously) is to load up the first 3 legs and attempt to hold off Powell.
Who deals with a Tyson Gay on first?
I think the US would've had the lead going into anchor with a legitimate chance to win. Especially if we ran Gay to Rodgers to Crawford to Doc. |
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Avante
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 333
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:49 pm Post subject: Re: Gay and the 4x1 |
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| TrackDaddy wrote: | | Avante wrote: | | gh wrote: | | OK, as somebody noted the other day, the board is slow. How slow? We posted a "scoop" to the front page yesterday that had the U.S. not done its now-traditional baton-goof in the heats, Tyson Gay would have run the leadoff leg in Berlin. And nobody even commented on it! |
If Gay is anywhere besides the anchor leg it's over once Bolt gets the baton on that third leg. What twosome deals with Usain Bolt to Asafa Powell? |
The idea (obviously) is to load up the first 3 legs and attempt to hold off Powell.
Who deals with a Tyson Gay on first?
I think the US would've had the lead going into anchor with a legitimate chance to win. Especially if we ran Gay to Rodgers to Crawford to Doc. |
Gay vs Mullings...Gay by two meters
Frater vs Rodgers....Rodgers holds the lead
Bolt vs Crawford....Bolt in a catch up role...come on! Now it's even!
Powell would dust Patton.
What should have been...
Nesta Carter...Michael Frater..Usain Bolt...Asafa Powell
Tyson Gay..Michael Rodgers..Darvis Patton...Walter Dix |
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TrackDaddy
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 3037
Location: The Command Post
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:56 pm Post subject: Re: Gay and the 4x1 |
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| Avante wrote: | | TrackDaddy wrote: | | Avante wrote: | | gh wrote: | | OK, as somebody noted the other day, the board is slow. How slow? We posted a "scoop" to the front page yesterday that had the U.S. not done its now-traditional baton-goof in the heats, Tyson Gay would have run the leadoff leg in Berlin. And nobody even commented on it! |
If Gay is anywhere besides the anchor leg it's over once Bolt gets the baton on that third leg. What twosome deals with Usain Bolt to Asafa Powell? |
The idea (obviously) is to load up the first 3 legs and attempt to hold off Powell.
Who deals with a Tyson Gay on first?
I think the US would've had the lead going into anchor with a legitimate chance to win. Especially if we ran Gay to Rodgers to Crawford to Doc. |
Gay vs Mullings...Gay by two meters
Frater vs Rodgers....Rodgers holds the lead
Bolt vs Crawford....Bolt in a catch up role...come on! Now it's even!
Powell would dust Patton.
What should have been...
Nesta Carter...Michael Frater..Usain Bolt...Asafa Powell
Tyson Gay..Michael Rodgers..Darvis Patton...Walter Dix |
Well since Dix wasnt available we shouldn't use him. Certainly a healthy Dix makes things even more interesting.
Your analysis of the race I presented is a gross oversimplification of the way relays manifest themselves. You being the sprint historian should know better.
If you watch the 4x1 film from Berlin, Botl didn't do the damage on 3rd that you claim he would/did.
In fact, that dude from T&T (I believe) gave him everything he could handle ( and then some?  ). |
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Marlow
Joined: 24 Jan 2008
Posts: 8243
Location: Up on the Farm
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 1:57 pm Post subject: Re: Gay and the 4x1 |
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| Avante wrote: | Gay vs Mullings...Gay by two meters
Frater vs Rodgers....Rodgers holds the lead
Bolt vs Crawford....Bolt in a catch up role...come on! Now it's even! |
So Bolt is only .17 faster than Crawford in a flying 100? Think again. Bolt hands off with a 3-meter lead. |
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Daisy
Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 8769
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:00 pm Post subject: |
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I'd like to see Gay on second. Take the baton early and pass off late.
Then GB have two chances to call a DQ  |
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TrackDaddy
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 3037
Location: The Command Post
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:06 pm Post subject: Re: Gay and the 4x1 |
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| Marlow wrote: | | Avante wrote: | Gay vs Mullings...Gay by two meters
Frater vs Rodgers....Rodgers holds the lead
Bolt vs Crawford....Bolt in a catch up role...come on! Now it's even! |
So Bolt is only .17 faster than Crawford in a flying 100? Think again. Bolt hands off with a 3-meter lead. |
Nonsense.
Start watching at the 2:38 mark.
Bolt had his hands FULL.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ByUC0mEUVMk |
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Marlow
Joined: 24 Jan 2008
Posts: 8243
Location: Up on the Farm
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:28 pm Post subject: Re: Gay and the 4x1 |
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| TrackDaddy wrote: | Nonsense.
Start watching at the 2:38 mark.
Bolt had his hands FULL. |
That's a joke, right? He's running farther in the outside lane and still smokes everyone. |
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TrackDaddy
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 3037
Location: The Command Post
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:46 pm Post subject: Re: Gay and the 4x1 |
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| Marlow wrote: | | TrackDaddy wrote: | Nonsense.
Start watching at the 2:38 mark.
Bolt had his hands FULL. |
That's a joke, right? He's running farther in the outside lane and still smokes everyone. |
First off, its clear from the tape (and the commentary that followed) the 4x1 that 3rd leg was much more competitive than people expected given Bolt's prowess.
But anyway this discussion is about the US relay-notice the thread title.
You said that Bolt hands off with a "3 meter lead" ahead of Crawford.
Well...the US is FASTER than T&T so Its nonsense that Bolt hands off with a 3 meter lead over the US-especially with Gay running 1st!
If Bolt didnt have a 3m lead over T&T (whose fastest sprinter Richard Thompson ran anchor!!) what makes you think he does it against the US when the 2nd fastest man in history is on 1st, the US champion is on 2nd, and one of the best curve runners in the world and former Olympic 200m gold medalist Crawford is on 3rd?!?
Nonsense.
Joker woulda been trying to catch up. |
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Speedfirst
Joined: 14 May 2009
Posts: 2562
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:54 pm Post subject: Re: Gay and the 4x1 |
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| TrackDaddy wrote: | | Marlow wrote: | | TrackDaddy wrote: | Nonsense.
Start watching at the 2:38 mark.
Bolt had his hands FULL. |
That's a joke, right? He's running farther in the outside lane and still smokes everyone. |
First off, its clear from the tape (and the commentary that followed) the 4x1 that 3rd leg was much more competitive than people expected given Bolt's prowess.
But anyway this discussion is about the US relay-notice the thread title.
You said that Bolt hands off with a "3 meter lead" ahead of Crawford.
Well...the US is FASTER than T&T so Its nonsense that Bolt hands off with a 3 meter lead over the US-especially with Gay running 1st!
If Bolt didnt have a 3m lead over T&T (whose fastest sprinter Richard Thompson ran anchor!!) what makes you think he does it against the US when the 2nd fastest man in history is on 1st, the US champion is on 2nd, and one of the best curve runners in the world and former Olympic 200m gold medalist Crawford is on 3rd?!?
Nonsense.
Joker woulda been trying to catch up. |
Co-sign |
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26mi235
Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 7402
Location: Madison, WI
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 2:58 pm Post subject: |
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| The dynamics of the race can also come into play. Being behind causes some runners to panic a bit and that can hurt a hand off by 0.1 to 0.2. Bolt is not 0.2 better than Gay. |
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TrainerPhil
Joined: 10 Jul 2009
Posts: 747
Location: A step ahead of you !
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:06 pm Post subject: |
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gh, I check in about once a day but I usually only see cross country coverage or topics (which I have zero interest in) so I don't stay long.
But I'll bite with this topic.
Gay as the lead-off is a surprise. Certainly contradicts what several posters who claimed to be in the know said at the time of the WCs.
If we are going to talk relay teams we can certainly discuss a healthy Dix on the US team.
Gay-Rodgers-Dix-Patton.... would that be the strongest lineup with Gay going first? Seems almost too strong.
But, let's not forget that Yohan Blake and Nester Carter (both running low 9.9 this past season) would change the entire landscape of any possible showdown.
Gay vs Carter - US has a good lead
Rodgers vs Blake - Blake closes and brings JA closer, but USA still lead
Bolt vs Dix - JA take the lead
Powell vs Patton - JA extend lead.
I just don't think the US has enough to beat Jamaica in a feature 4x100m realy race with all top runners in attendance.... |
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Marlow
Joined: 24 Jan 2008
Posts: 8243
Location: Up on the Farm
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:11 pm Post subject: |
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Anyone that thinks that Bolt doesn't easily dominate his leg, just hasn't been paying attention for the last two years.  |
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Gordon18
Joined: 19 Aug 2008
Posts: 440
Location: England!!!!!
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 3:29 pm Post subject: |
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| Any one think the U.S would have broken the A.R let alone 37.31. I just don't see it. Yea Bolt was tired, and he didn't look as fast, but he must have done something to help the relay because without him they don't run under 37.7 |
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26mi235
Joined: 08 Oct 2005
Posts: 7402
Location: Madison, WI
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:18 pm Post subject: |
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| Marlow wrote: | | Anyone that thinks that Bolt doesn't easily dominate his leg, just hasn't been paying attention for the last two years. |
He almost sort of dominated Spearman and even succeeded in passing him by 80+ meters. Of course Spearman is the fastest US guy, right. Bolt and company will have to run the race. A top team in Berlin could have beaten the race the Jamaicans ran. |
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Dave
Joined: 20 Aug 2006
Posts: 728
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 4:54 pm Post subject: Re: Gay and the 4x1 |
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| TrackDaddy wrote: | | Especially if we ran Gay to Rodgers to Crawford to Doc. |
There are some other people who might just make sense here after Tyson Gay. There is a very reasonable chance that names like: Dix, Spearman, Gaitlin, could just as easily show up and bring it home a tick or two faster. |
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Marlow
Joined: 24 Jan 2008
Posts: 8243
Location: Up on the Farm
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 5:05 pm Post subject: Re: Gay and the 4x1 |
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| Dave wrote: | | TrackDaddy wrote: | | Especially if we ran Gay to Rodgers to Crawford to Doc. |
There are some other people who might just make sense here after Tyson Gay. There is a very reasonable chance that names like: Dix, Spearman, Gaitlin, could just as easily show up and bring it home a tick or two faster. |
Patton and SC will be 33 in 2011. I like Dix and Padgett. |
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TrackDaddy
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 3037
Location: The Command Post
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| Posted: Fri Nov 06, 2009 8:43 pm Post subject: |
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Why are y'all bringing up Dix?
Was he in Berlin?
When Gay says he was scheduled to run first, he's referring to Berlin hence the article and the thread title.
Obviously we'd all prefer Dix be on the relay in the future, but even without the zone mishap he wasn't an option in Berlin.
And Marlow you saw the video just like we did. Bolt didn't dominate his leg like most people expected him to and you know it.
If I were Jamaica I might consider running Powell on 2nd with Bolt anchor. The US would have to think twice about the frontloading strategy Gay mentioned. |
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sprintextreme
Joined: 29 Sep 2009
Posts: 6
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 12:51 am Post subject: |
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The final team was going to be: Gay, Spearmon, Crawford, Rodgers.
So there you have it, and that is facts. Oh, and before anyone questions my knowledge on the matter, liets just say I know the National coach and got it straight from him, who by the way makes and sets the relay order. |
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Speedfirst
Joined: 14 May 2009
Posts: 2562
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 6:16 am Post subject: |
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Well since this is conjecture on a message board and the race in the finals never took place, the results are whatever.
So in other words, we don't KNOW what would've happened. What we do KNOW, when the U.S.get's the stick around the track in the history of this event, they are the all time best. |
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Avante
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 333
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:21 am Post subject: Re: Gay and the 4x1 |
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| TrackDaddy wrote: | | Avante wrote: | | TrackDaddy wrote: | | Avante wrote: | | gh wrote: | | OK, as somebody noted the other day, the board is slow. How slow? We posted a "scoop" to the front page yesterday that had the U.S. not done its now-traditional baton-goof in the heats, Tyson Gay would have run the leadoff leg in Berlin. And nobody even commented on it! |
If Gay is anywhere besides the anchor leg it's over once Bolt gets the baton on that third leg. What twosome deals with Usain Bolt to Asafa Powell? |
The idea (obviously) is to load up the first 3 legs and attempt to hold off Powell.
Who deals with a Tyson Gay on first?
I think the US would've had the lead going into anchor with a legitimate chance to win. Especially if we ran Gay to Rodgers to Crawford to Doc. |
Gay vs Mullings...Gay by two meters
Frater vs Rodgers....Rodgers holds the lead
Bolt vs Crawford....Bolt in a catch up role...come on! Now it's even!
Powell would dust Patton.
What should have been...
Nesta Carter...Michael Frater..Usain Bolt...Asafa Powell
Tyson Gay..Michael Rodgers..Darvis Patton...Walter Dix |
Well since Dix wasnt available we shouldn't use him. Certainly a healthy Dix makes things even more interesting.
Your analysis of the race I presented is a gross oversimplification of the way relays manifest themselves. You being the sprint historian should know better.
If you watch the 4x1 film from Berlin, Botl didn't do the damage on 3rd that you claim he would/did.
In fact, that dude from T&T (I believe) gave him everything he could handle ( and then some? :o ). |
I understand the dynamics of a 4x1......trust me!
Tyson Gay is the only sprinter in the world (other than Bolt) that can hold a small lead vs Asafa Powell. To use him on another leg.....nope! Sure he'd get the lead. Means nothing! There has never been a faster third to anchor than Bolt to Powell. The USA stood no chance. Shawn Crawford, Darvis Patton, whoever isn't running with or holding off Usain Bolt. Asafa Powell will either have a lead....it's over...Jamaica wins! Or be a meter or so back....it's over...Jamaica wins!
Keep in mind I'm all about the red, white and blue being from California. I just know who had the better team. |
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Speedfirst
Joined: 14 May 2009
Posts: 2562
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:47 am Post subject: |
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ALL CONJECTURE...............RACE NEVER HAPPENED  |
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Avante
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 333
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 8:55 am Post subject: |
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| Speedfirst wrote: | | ALL CONJECTURE...............RACE NEVER HAPPENED :lol: |
I never fought Muhammad Ali. I wonder who would win? |
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Speedfirst
Joined: 14 May 2009
Posts: 2562
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:15 am Post subject: |
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| Avante wrote: | | Speedfirst wrote: | | ALL CONJECTURE...............RACE NEVER HAPPENED |
I never fought Muhammad Ali. I wonder who would win? |
Wow in this scenario, you're comparing yourself with a world class/elite relay team..............talk about apples & oranges.
Huge difference here.............You don't stand a chance against Ali |
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Avante
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 333
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:17 am Post subject: |
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| Speedfirst wrote: | | Avante wrote: | | Speedfirst wrote: | | ALL CONJECTURE...............RACE NEVER HAPPENED :lol: |
I never fought Muhammad Ali. I wonder who would win? |
Wow in this scenario, you're comparing yourself with a world class/elite relay team..............talk about apples & oranges. |
Actually I'm just giving you an example of how silly....just conjecture because it never happened...is. |
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Speedfirst
Joined: 14 May 2009
Posts: 2562
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:28 am Post subject: |
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| Avante wrote: | | Speedfirst wrote: | | Avante wrote: | | Speedfirst wrote: | | ALL CONJECTURE...............RACE NEVER HAPPENED |
I never fought Muhammad Ali. I wonder who would win? |
Wow in this scenario, you're comparing yourself with a world class/elite relay team..............talk about apples & oranges. |
Actually I'm just giving you an example of how silly....just conjecture because it never happened...is. |
That's what conjecture is, now what's silly again is placing yourself in the analogy with Ali
Now my conjecture is this....The U.S. would've won the race. |
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TrackDaddy
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 3037
Location: The Command Post
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:30 am Post subject: |
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| Avante wrote: | | Speedfirst wrote: | | ALL CONJECTURE...............RACE NEVER HAPPENED |
I never fought Muhammad Ali. I wonder who would win? |
Today?
You would.
Last edited by TrackDaddy on Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:33 am; edited 1 time in total |
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Speedfirst
Joined: 14 May 2009
Posts: 2562
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:33 am Post subject: |
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[quote="TrackDaddy"] | Avante wrote: | | Speedfirst wrote: | | ALL CONJECTURE...............RACE NEVER HAPPENED |
I never fought Muhammad Ali. I wonder who would win?[/quote]
Today?
You would. |
I doubt it |
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Avante
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 333
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:33 am Post subject: |
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| Speedfirst wrote: | | Avante wrote: | | Speedfirst wrote: | | Avante wrote: | | Speedfirst wrote: | | ALL CONJECTURE...............RACE NEVER HAPPENED :lol: |
I never fought Muhammad Ali. I wonder who would win? |
Wow in this scenario, you're comparing yourself with a world class/elite relay team..............talk about apples & oranges. |
Actually I'm just giving you an example of how silly....just conjecture because it never happened...is. |
That's what conjecture is, now what's silly again is placing yourself in the analogy with Ali |
The point is some things don't have to actually happen for the outcome if it happen to be obvious. There is no reason in the world to think a team with three 4X1 WR's holders, the 100/200/4x1 record holder and histories most prolific sub10.00 sprinter on it are losing a 4x1 relay. |
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TrackDaddy
Joined: 27 Nov 2007
Posts: 3037
Location: The Command Post
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:34 am Post subject: |
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| Speedfirst wrote: |
I doubt it |
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Speedfirst
Joined: 14 May 2009
Posts: 2562
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:35 am Post subject: |
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| Avante wrote: | | Speedfirst wrote: | | Avante wrote: | | Speedfirst wrote: | | Avante wrote: | | Speedfirst wrote: | | ALL CONJECTURE...............RACE NEVER HAPPENED |
I never fought Muhammad Ali. I wonder who would win? |
Wow in this scenario, you're comparing yourself with a world class/elite relay team..............talk about apples & oranges. |
Actually I'm just giving you an example of how silly....just conjecture because it never happened...is. |
That's what conjecture is, now what's silly again is placing yourself in the analogy with Ali |
The point is some things don't have to actually happen for the outcome if it happen to be obvious. There is no reason in the world to think a team with three 4X1 WR's holders, the 100/200/4x1 record holder and histories most prolific sub10.00 sprinter on it are losing a 4x1 relay. |
What's obvious? Again that's conjecture, not a fact. |
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Avante
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 333
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:36 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Speedfirst"] | TrackDaddy wrote: | | Avante wrote: | | Speedfirst wrote: | | ALL CONJECTURE...............RACE NEVER HAPPENED |
I never fought Muhammad Ali. I wonder who would win?[/quote]
Today?
You would. |
I doubt it |
Well I am 6-2 285 pounds of twisted railroad steel |
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Speedfirst
Joined: 14 May 2009
Posts: 2562
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:38 am Post subject: |
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[quote="Avante"] | Speedfirst wrote: | | TrackDaddy wrote: | | Avante wrote: | | Speedfirst wrote: | | ALL CONJECTURE...............RACE NEVER HAPPENED |
I never fought Muhammad Ali. I wonder who would win?[/quote]
Today?
You would. |
I doubt it |
Well I am 6-2 285 pounds of twisted railroad steel |
That simply means...the harder you'll fall |
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Avante
Joined: 06 Oct 2009
Posts: 333
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| Posted: Sat Nov 07, 2009 9:40 am Post subject: |
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| Speedfirst wrote: | | Avante wrote: | | Speedfirst wrote: | | Avante wrote: | | Speedfirst wrote: | | Avante wrote: | | Speedfirst wrote: | | ALL CONJECTURE...............RACE NEVER HAPPENED :lol: |
I never fought Muhammad Ali. I wonder who would win? |
Wow in this scenario, you're comparing yourself with a world class/elite relay team..............talk about apples & oranges. |
Actually I'm just giving you an example of how silly....just conjecture because it never happened...is. |
That's what conjecture is, now what's silly again is placing yourself in the analogy with Ali |
The point is some things don't have to actually happen for the outcome if it happen to be obvious. There is no reason in the world to think a team with three 4X1 WR's holders, the 100/200/4x1 record holder and histories most prolific sub10.00 sprinter on it are losing a 4x1 relay. |
What's obvious? Again that's conjecture, not a fact. |
Tomorrow the Atlanta Falcons will beat the Washington Redskins. That is a fact! How do I know this over 24 hours in advance? Is this conjecture? |
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