Best sprinter to never win an Olympic medal?


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Postby TrackDaddy » Sun Oct 25, 2009 2:58 pm

Pego wrote:
TrackDaddy wrote:Regardless? Really?


B/T/A's contributions to the board have nothing to do with his style, unnecessarily confrontational at times, needless to say. His in-depth knowledge of American male sprinting history has few peers. I crossed swords with him repeatedly on many subjects, but his value is undeniable.

Speedfirst wrote:Sure you're a girl......
What's pathetic and immature is your hard on for me...


A hard on in a girl. A rather novel concept to me.


As was gleaned from recent global developments...

It can happen.
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Postby STL_Runner » Sun Oct 25, 2009 6:03 pm

If relay medals don't count, my vote is for Tyson Gay or Ray Norton.
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Postby Gordon18 » Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:17 pm

personally i'd say Powell, but Tyson probably gets it looking at his times and other champ performances.
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Postby Gordon18 » Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:43 pm

gh wrote:Speedfirst DQed for multiple false starts.


You gonna ban STL for provoking??

I don't know about you, but repeatedly saying, "reading comprehension is not your friend"....to a black man, is gonna piss him off. So instead of seeming like a racist, I advise you to ban him aswell.
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Postby STL_Runner » Mon Oct 26, 2009 1:51 pm

Gordon18 wrote:
gh wrote:Speedfirst DQed for multiple false starts.


You gonna ban STL for provoking??

I don't know about you, but repeatedly saying, "reading comprehension is not your friend"....to a black man, is gonna piss him off. So instead of seeming like a racist, I advise you to ban him aswell.

Now we're bringing in the race card? I have not the slightest clue whether Speedfirst is black, white, blue or green. I have never met him and have never seen a photo of him. I don't know what area of the country he lives in or how old he is.

I don't have any of my T&F books near me right now and I'd like to know a little more about Hal Davis. Avante knows his stuff and I'm interested to hear how his achievements should be considered over Ray Norton and Tyson Gay.
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Postby Ned Ryerson » Tue Oct 27, 2009 6:39 pm

I think that Tyson Gay is clearly the best sprinter to have not won an Olympic medal (I understand if you want to limit the discussion to inactive/retired sprinters).

Ignoring relay medals, he's:
2007 World Champion at 100m and 200m
2009 World Championship silver medalist at 100m
The second fastest 100m runner in history
The third fastest 200m runner in history

And I would argue that his silver in Berlin was worth more than virtually every other gold awarded at the World Championships. To make a comparison, it would be like Lagat running 12:38 to take silver behind Bekele running 12:32.
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Postby Gordon18 » Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:02 am

Tyson doesn't have an Olympic relay medal does he? or am i missing something.
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Postby STL_Runner » Wed Oct 28, 2009 5:44 am

Gordon18 wrote:Tyson doesn't have an Olympic relay medal does he? or am i missing something.

He would if the US could get the stick around the track!
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Postby TrackDaddy » Wed Oct 28, 2009 6:30 am

Ned Ryerson wrote:I think that Tyson Gay is clearly the best sprinter to have not won an Olympic medal (I understand if you want to limit the discussion to inactive/retired sprinters).

Ignoring relay medals, he's:
2007 World Champion at 100m and 200m
2009 World Championship silver medalist at 100m
The second fastest 100m runner in history
The third fastest 200m runner in history

And I would argue that his silver in Berlin was worth more than virtually every other gold awarded at the World Championships. To make a comparison, it would be like Lagat running 12:38 to take silver behind Bekele running 12:32.


What?!?

I can't believe you don't think its Hal Davis. :D

And sombody's protecting you, STL.

Imagine that...Must be nice.
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Postby Avante » Wed Oct 28, 2009 7:08 am

STL_Runner wrote:
Gordon18 wrote:
gh wrote:Speedfirst DQed for multiple false starts.


You gonna ban STL for provoking??

I don't know about you, but repeatedly saying, "reading comprehension is not your friend"....to a black man, is gonna piss him off. So instead of seeming like a racist, I advise you to ban him aswell.

Now we're bringing in the race card? I have not the slightest clue whether Speedfirst is black, white, blue or green. I have never met him and have never seen a photo of him. I don't know what area of the country he lives in or how old he is.

I don't have any of my T&F books near me right now and I'd like to know a little more about Hal Davis. Avante knows his stuff and I'm interested to hear how his achievements should be considered over Ray Norton and Tyson Gay.


Davis tied both 10.2/9.4 WR's. Between 1940-43 he won 7 National Championships in the 100/200. Three times winning the double. As far as I know in that 4 year span he only lost two races. One to Barney Ewell the other to Payton Jordan. If the Olympics had been held in 40 and 44 there is a very real possibility he wins both doubles and 4x1's.
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Postby TrackDaddy » Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:38 am

National Championships?

Okay, it must be Hal.
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Postby Avante » Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:47 am

TrackDaddy wrote:National Championships?

Okay, it must be Hal.


Work with me here....

There was nothing else for him to win in his time. So all he did was run WR's and win everything avaiiable to him. What sprinter loses but two races in 4 years, as a 100/200 man? He was running WR's in junior college. Not too familiar with him are you?

paste.....


World War II deprived Harold Davis of the international recognition that should have been his. During the early 1940s, Davis rightfully held the title "World's Fastest Human," winning just about every major sprint title over a four-year period. In 1941, Davis tied Jesse Owens' world 100m dash record of 10.2 while a student at Salinas Junior College under Hall of Fame coach Bud Winter. He then transferred to the University of California, where he was coached by another Hall of Famer, Brutus Hamilton. There, Davis won the national collegiate 100 and 220 yard titles in 1942 and 1943. Overall, he won the AAU 100 title three times and was a four-time champion in the AAU 200. Nicknamed the "California Comet," Davis first came to attention while in high school, where he ran the 100 yards in 9.7 and the 220 in 21.0. In one of his first major college races, the NCAA 100 yard dash final, he stumbled, fell to the ground, recovered and made up five to seven meters on the field in finishing fourth. Thereafter, the only major race he lost was in the 1941 AAU 100 meters where he was narrowly beaten by fellow Hall of Famer Barney Ewell. A poor starter, Davis had an extremely fast finish and was at his best in the longer 200 meter race, in which he ran 20.4 on a straight course and was twice timed in a wind-aided 20.2. In 1946, he sustained a serious hamstring injury and never again attained top form.
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Postby TrackDaddy » Wed Oct 28, 2009 8:54 am

Avante wrote:
TrackDaddy wrote:National Championships?

Okay, it must be Hal.


Work with me here....

There was nothing else for him to win in his time. So all he did was run WR's and win everything avaiiable to him. What sprinter loses but two races in 4 years, as a 100/200 man? He was running WR's in junior college. Not too familiar with him are you?


No, I'm not familiar with him but admittedly he resume does sound rather impressive.

However I'm not sure that national championships should be mentioned even though thats all he had. I wouldn't doubt that several people would have him beat there; not to mention the "bye" defending world champions get today in their respective national championships. And yes, I understand that there was no WC in his day.
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Postby Avante » Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:03 am

TrackDaddy wrote:
Avante wrote:
TrackDaddy wrote:National Championships?

Okay, it must be Hal.


Work with me here....

There was nothing else for him to win in his time. So all he did was run WR's and win everything avaiiable to him. What sprinter loses but two races in 4 years, as a 100/200 man? He was running WR's in junior college. Not too familiar with him are you?


No, I'm not familiar with him but admittedly he resume does sound rather impressive.

However I'm not sure that national championships should be mentioned even though thats all he had. I wouldn't doubt that several people would have him beat there; not to mention the "bye" defending world champions get today in their respective national championships. And yes, I understand that there was no WC in his day.


It's all about dominating your era. That's all an athlete can do. Hal Davis was by far the greatest sprinter in the world from 1940-43. He's a legend!

Tyson Gay is getting smacked around by Usain Bolt after getting smacked around by Asafa Powell. Ray Norton had an Olympics to compete in, he crashed and burned. We didn'tsee Davis get beat up by a couple different guys or running in an Olympics without medaling like Ray Norton.
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Postby TrackDaddy » Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:21 am

Avante wrote:
It's all about dominating your era. That's all an athlete can do. Hal Davis was by far the greatest sprinter in the world from 1940-43. He's a legend!


I could argue it if Powell wasnt eliminated because of his relay medal. He's been a model of consistency outside of majors and was dominant for just as long between about 2005 and last year sans his Osaka performance. Not only holding the WR during that period but breaking it twice. Not to mention his consistent performances below 10 seconds that everyone wants to dismiss. Thats a truly amazing feat though. However, I do understand he's been eliminated from discussion because of his relay medal.
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Postby Avante » Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:24 am

TrackDaddy wrote:
Avante wrote:
It's all about dominating your era. That's all an athlete can do. Hal Davis was by far the greatest sprinter in the world from 1940-43. He's a legend!


I could argue it if Powell wasnt eliminated because of his relay medal. He's been a model of consistency outside of majors and was dominant for just as long between about 2005 and last year sans his Osaka performance. Not only holding the WR during that period but breaking twice. Not to mention his consistent performances below 10 seconds. I do understand he's been eliminated from discussion because of his relay medal.


Once again we have to go with what an athlete did in his era. Asafa Powell is not a Champion sprinter, he runs fast times. When faced with a Championship situation Hal Davis won 7 of 8 Championships, he was a winner something Asafa Powell isn't.
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Postby TrackDaddy » Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:57 am

Asafa Powell has won national championships too.
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Postby Avante » Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:06 am

TrackDaddy wrote:Asafa Powell has won national championships too.


In both sprints?

If you're into the history of Sprintdom, Hal Davis is one of the greats. I seriously doubt he's losing the 1940 Olympic 100/200. In a major Championship I'm not betting on Asafa Powell...oh no!
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Postby gh » Wed Oct 28, 2009 10:54 am

No. 1s in the T&FN World Rankings (1947 on) who never won an individual Olympic medal:

Jim Golliday ('51, '55)
Willie Williams ('53)
Heinz Fütterer ('54)
Ray Norton ('59)
Frank Budd ('61)
George Anderson ('65)
Steve Williams ('73, '75)
Eugen Ray ('77)
James Sanford ('79)
Stanley Floyd ('80)
Raymond Stewart ('89)
Leroy Burrell ('90, '91)
Dwain Chambers ('02)
John Capel ('03)
Asafa Powell ('06)
Tyson Gay ('07)

***note also John Carlos (’69, '70), with no medal in the 100.
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Postby TrackDaddy » Wed Oct 28, 2009 12:39 pm

Great list.

Hmmm...if we omit the relay medal looks like former WR holder Burrell belongs in the conversation too.

It's been 20 years since Ray Stewart was #1?

I'm getting old. :?
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Postby bambam » Wed Oct 28, 2009 1:18 pm

gh wrote:No. 1s in the T&FN World Rankings (1947 on) who never won an individual Olympic medal:

Jim Golliday ('51, '55)
Willie Williams ('53)
Heinz Fütterer ('54)
Ray Norton ('59)
Frank Budd ('61)
George Anderson ('65)
Steve Williams ('73, '75)
Eugen Ray ('77)
James Sanford ('79)
Stanley Floyd ('80)
Raymond Stewart ('89)
Leroy Burrell ('90, '91)
Dwain Chambers ('02)
John Capel ('03)
Asafa Powell ('06)
Tyson Gay ('07)

***note also John Carlos (’69, '70), with no medal in the 100.


Well, we can eliminate Eugen Ray from this discussion
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Postby gh » Wed Oct 28, 2009 2:52 pm

whilst keeping Heinz Fütterer?
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Postby Per Andersen » Wed Oct 28, 2009 9:43 pm

gh wrote:whilst keeping Heinz Fütterer?

Why pick on those guys while George Anderson is on the list?
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Postby Avante » Thu Oct 29, 2009 7:01 am

gh wrote:No. 1s in the T&FN World Rankings (1947 on) who never won an individual Olympic medal:

Jim Golliday ('51, '55)
Willie Williams ('53)
Heinz Fütterer ('54)
Ray Norton ('59)
Frank Budd ('61)
George Anderson ('65)
Steve Williams ('73, '75)
Eugen Ray ('77)
James Sanford ('79)
Stanley Floyd ('80)
Raymond Stewart ('89)
Leroy Burrell ('90, '91)
Dwain Chambers ('02)
John Capel ('03)
Asafa Powell ('06)
Tyson Gay ('07)

***note also John Carlos (’69, '70), with no medal in the 100.


Not that they were number one ranked, just adding to the list....

Howard Drew...1912
George Simpson...1932
Eulace Peacock...1936
Rey Robinson...1972
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Postby Rob » Thu Oct 29, 2009 12:18 pm

bambam wrote:Well, we can eliminate Eugen Ray from this discussion


Why?

And if I can guess your predictable insinuations, why do you leap on Ray and not Chambers?
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Postby gh » Thu Oct 29, 2009 2:51 pm

Avante wrote:...
Not that they were number one ranked, just adding to the list....

Howard Drew...1912
George Simpson...1932
Eulace Peacock...1936
Rey Robinson...1972


Robinson has a one-time 9.9 from a place known for dodgy timing and a second-best career mark of 10.3, with no international credentials. He doesn't remotely belong on a list of this caliber.
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Postby Conor Dary » Thu Oct 29, 2009 4:19 pm

Since we are talking about 'dubious times', we should mention Southern Illinois University's Ivory Crockett in those who didn't win a medal. The first 9.0 100y.

I saw him run down at MacAndrew's Stadium back in the early '70s.
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Postby bambam » Thu Oct 29, 2009 5:20 pm

Rob wrote:
bambam wrote:Well, we can eliminate Eugen Ray from this discussion


Why?

And if I can guess your predictable insinuations, why do you leap on Ray and not Chambers?


A number of people jumped out at me on that list, including Futterer and Chambers, but Ray especially so - for no good reason.
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Postby dj » Thu Oct 29, 2009 9:55 pm

Avante wrote:
Not that they were number one ranked, just adding to the list....

Howard Drew...1912
George Simpson...1932
Eulace Peacock...1936
Rey Robinson...1972


The first three make for a fairly good list, but only if you're counting a lack of OG medals in the 100. Simpson took silver in the '32 OG.
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Postby dj » Thu Oct 29, 2009 10:19 pm

gh wrote:No. 1s in the T&FN World Rankings (1947 on) who never won an individual Olympic medal:

Jim Golliday ('51, '55)
Willie Williams ('53)
Heinz Fütterer ('54)
Ray Norton ('59)
Frank Budd ('61)
George Anderson ('65)
Steve Williams ('73, '75)
Eugen Ray ('77)
James Sanford ('79)
Stanley Floyd ('80)
Raymond Stewart ('89)
Leroy Burrell ('90, '91)
Dwain Chambers ('02)
John Capel ('03)
Asafa Powell ('06)
Tyson Gay ('07)

***note also John Carlos (’69, '70), with no medal in the 100.


Here are the #1s in my own retro rankings (pre-1947) in the 100 who never earned individual medals in the OG 100 or 200. Research continues on all of these years, and in a rare few instances I could still change my mind on #1s for certain years. I'm carrying this back only to the sprinters who were still active at the time of the 1896 Games.

Bernie Wefers (1895, 1896, 1897)
Arthur Duffey (1899, '00, '01, '02, '03)
Charley Parsons ('05)
Tex Ramsdell ('10)
Richard Rau ('11)
Howard Drew ('13, '14)
Jo Loomis ('15)
Andy Ward ('16)
Olaf Frogner ('17)
Billy Hayes ('19)
Bob McAllister ('22)
Herbert Houben ('24, '25)
Chet Bowman ('27)
Frank Wykoff ('30, '31)
Eulace Peacock ('35)
Perrin Walker ('37)
Ben Johnson ('38)
Clyde Jeffrey ('39)
Hal Davis ('40, '42, '43)
George Lewis ('44)
Billy Mathis ('46)
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Postby Avante » Fri Oct 30, 2009 7:41 am

gh wrote:
Avante wrote:...
Not that they were number one ranked, just adding to the list....

Howard Drew...1912
George Simpson...1932
Eulace Peacock...1936
Rey Robinson...1972


Robinson has a one-time 9.9 from a place known for dodgy timing and a second-best career mark of 10.3, with no international credentials. He doesn't remotely belong on a list of this caliber.


Robinson took second in our 72 Olympic trials. He was world ranked..5th...in 72 and had PRs of 9.2/10.26 to go with his 9.9. I think he belongs.
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Postby Avante » Fri Oct 30, 2009 10:00 am

Conor Dary wrote:Since we are talking about 'dubious times', we should mention Southern Illinois University's Ivory Crockett in those who didn't win a medal. The first 9.0 100y.

I saw him run down at MacAndrew's Stadium back in the early '70s.


I think his 9.0 is legit, he did beat Reggie Jones in that race. As we can see from the below, he was the real deal.

1970 Nationals

1. Ivory Crockett 9.3
2. Ben Vaughan 9.3
3. Charles Greene 9.3
4. Eddie Hart 9.3
5. Robert J. Taylor 9.3
6. Bobby Turner 9.5

1969

1. Ivory Crockett 9.3
2. John Carlos 9.3
3. Charles Greene 9.4
4. Mel Gray 9.4
5. Robert J. Taylor 9.4
6. Eddie Hart 9.4
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Postby gh » Fri Oct 30, 2009 3:15 pm

Avante wrote:
gh wrote:
Avante wrote:...
Not that they were number one ranked, just adding to the list....

Howard Drew...1912
George Simpson...1932
Eulace Peacock...1936
Rey Robinson...1972


Robinson has a one-time 9.9 from a place known for dodgy timing and a second-best career mark of 10.3, with no international credentials. He doesn't remotely belong on a list of this caliber.


Robinson took second in our 72 Olympic trials. He was world ranked..5th...in 72 and had PRs of 9.2/10.26 to go with his 9.9. I think he belongs.


If a No. 5 ranking is credential enough, we need to expand the list by a couple of dozen. Citing meaningless hand times means nothing.
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Postby Avante » Fri Oct 30, 2009 8:21 pm

gh wrote:
Avante wrote:
gh wrote:
Avante wrote:...
Not that they were number one ranked, just adding to the list....

Howard Drew...1912
George Simpson...1932
Eulace Peacock...1936
Rey Robinson...1972


Robinson has a one-time 9.9 from a place known for dodgy timing and a second-best career mark of 10.3, with no international credentials. He doesn't remotely belong on a list of this caliber.


Robinson took second in our 72 Olympic trials. He was world ranked..5th...in 72 and had PRs of 9.2/10.26 to go with his 9.9. I think he belongs.




If a No. 5 ranking is credential enough, we need to expand the list by a couple of dozen. Citing meaningless hand times means nothing.


A world record 100m holder, a 9.2 guy which is just a tick away from what greats Hayes, Hines and Greene ran, a second place finish at out Oly trials beating the to be Oly silver medalist, a number 5 world ranking. That's enought for me.
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Postby gh » Sat Oct 31, 2009 2:27 am

Wow, talk about lowering the bar.

Your faith in bad hand timing is astounding.
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Postby Avante » Sun Nov 01, 2009 12:08 am

gh wrote:Wow, talk about lowering the bar.

Your faith in bad hand timing is astounding.


I can only go with the info I have. I can't assume a time is wrong, hell we could do that for any of those pre electro races. Robinson ran the second fastest time in the world in 72 with a 9.3. He ran a 9.2w in high school. He was the third ranked American in 1972, the fifth ranked in the world. He took second in our Olympic trials beating Taylor who would win the Oly silver medal. If you recall he came within a whisker of beating Hart at those trials.


So we have an Olympian who ran a world record. Those are the facts. A guy who did run 9.3 and a 9.2. Nobody is lowering the bar, he accomplished enought to belong in this conversation. He also had a 10.26.

1972 USA 100 yards

1 Harold Porter 9.2
1 Herb Washington 9.2
1 Ivory Crockett 9.2
1 Joseph Sincere 9.2
5 Rey Robinson 9.3
5 Gus Brisco USA 9.3
5 William Holloway 9.3
5 Steve Williams 9.3
5 Cliff Branch 9.3
5 William Lide 9.3

100 m

1 Eddie Hart 9.9
1 Rey Robinson 9.9
3 Warren Edmonson 10.0
3 Steve Riddick 10.0
3 Cliff Branch 10.0
3 Henry Jackson 10.0
3 Robert Taylor 10.0
8 Willie Deckard 10.1
8 Lennox Miller 10.1
8 Dennis Walker 10.1

As we see he ran about as fast as anyone in 72 and when it came time to go for an Olympics spot he barely lost to Hart. So he rose to the occasion. There is no reason to think he couldn't have beaten Taylor again at the Olympics.
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Postby no one » Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:20 am

Thats the difference between:

1. being there and knowing context (gh)... and
2. reading numbers on a piece of paper (avante)

One is knowledge
the other -
merely perpetuation of misleading, perfunctory and self serving

mmm - a pattern? no, easily predictable

will happen again
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Postby Avante » Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:29 am

no one wrote:Thats the difference between:

1. being there and knowing context (gh)... and
2. reading numbers on a piece of paper (avante)

One is knowledge
the other -
merely perpetuation of misleading, perfunctory and self serving

mmm - a pattern? no, easily predictable

will happen again


You try way too hard no one....really!

Rey Robinson did beat everyone but Hart with an Olympic berth on the line. He did get credit for 9.3, 9.2, 9.9. He was ranked 3 USA, 5 World. Those are the facts. You disagree with that? Prove those facts wrong?
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Postby no one » Sun Nov 01, 2009 9:49 am

yawn - you don't know what 'prove' is
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Postby Avante » Sun Nov 01, 2009 10:01 am

no one wrote:yawn - you don't know what 'prove' is


Just as I thought. Not a clue!
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