as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues


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as our descent back into the Middle Ages continues

Postby gh » Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:38 am

more than a third of parents don't want their kids to have Swine Flu shots! Way to increase the chances of a real epidemic, folks.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091007/ap_ ... cine_fears
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Postby Marlow » Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:41 am

There are, of course, dangers and side effects with any vaccination (some people even die of the very disease for which they've been inoculated), but yes, over the whole population of the USA, we'd be much better off if everyone who should get one, does get one.
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Postby SQUACKEE » Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:56 am

I'll take my chances, dont trust some big agency sticking some crap in me, just dont.

I'd like to see where everyone comes down on this.
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Postby guru » Thu Oct 08, 2009 5:58 am

Unless I had a child with a medical condition that put them at greater risk I would never have them get "routine" seasonal flu vaccinations. Immune systems are depressed by vaccines, and especially for a developing child this could have long term ramifications when defending against diseases like cancer.
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Postby Marlow » Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:03 am

SQUACKEE wrote:I'd like to see where everyone comes down on this.

So the vote currently sits at

2 - Enlightened
2 - Neanderthal

so much for evolution!! ;-)
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Postby SQUACKEE » Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:14 am

Marlow wrote:
SQUACKEE wrote:I'd like to see where everyone comes down on this.

So the vote currently sits at

2 - Enlightened
2 - Neanderthal

so much for evolution!! ;-)


Dont take this personally but i hope you take the shit and end up in the hospital...wheres that smiley face when you need it!
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Postby guru » Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:14 am

Marlow wrote:so much for evolution!! ;-)



You wouldn't want to be the person born after several generations of ancestors who were vaccinated for every bug that came along. Trust me.
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Postby Marlow » Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:30 am

guru wrote:You wouldn't want to be the person born after several generations of ancestors who were vaccinated for every bug that came along. Trust me.

Pego, smack him!!

There's plenty of pathogens to go around, and the reason snot-nosed kids are so snotty is because there are so many things we can't or don't prevent. Things like mumps, measles, and even flu do NOT need to be experienced if we can prevent them.

Where you ARE correct is the alarming increase in allergies. I do think that comes from not exposing ourselves to the environment more as a child.
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Postby Rye Catcher » Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:43 am

Can I get an anti-asteroid shot? Thats the baby that will do us all in. I get my flu shot next week.
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Postby guru » Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:48 am

Rye Catcher wrote:Can I get an anti-asteroid shot? Thats the baby that will do us all in.



Good news for you.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33212609/ns ... nce-space/
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Postby tandfman » Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:55 am

SQUACKEE wrote:I'll take my chances, dont trust some big agency sticking some crap in me, just dont.

Nor do I. But I do trust my personal physician, and if he recommends sticking something in me, I'm going to trust him, as I always have. He'll be the one doing the sticking, not "some big agency."
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Postby guru » Thu Oct 08, 2009 6:56 am

Marlow wrote:
guru wrote:You wouldn't want to be the person born after several generations of ancestors who were vaccinated for every bug that came along. Trust me.


There's plenty of pathogens to go around, and the reason snot-nosed kids are so snotty is because there are so many things we can't or don't prevent. Things like mumps, measles, and even flu do NOT need to be experienced if we can prevent them.




Just googled this up for you.

http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines ... ession.htm
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Postby jhc68 » Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:07 am

I don't think anti-vaccine people are neanderthals. They are parasites playing the odds. The mentality is that there is no need for them to be immunized because everyone else will.

Me. I'm old enough to have been in the first generation to get polio shots. It was a common thing in the 1950's to know people in "iron lungs" (youngeer posters won't know what the hell I'm referring to, lucky for them). When reminders of the reasons for vaccinations disappear then it is easy to discount the need for them.
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Postby SQUACKEE » Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:13 am

[quote="jhc68"]I don't think anti-vaccine people are neanderthals. They are parasites playing the odds. quote]

Ok, i'd rather be a neanderthal than a parasite. You all know why the neanderthals died out, right? They refused to get vaccines!
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Postby guru » Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:15 am

jhc68 wrote:I don't think anti-vaccine people are neanderthals. They are parasites playing the odds. The mentality is that there is no need for them to be immunized because everyone else will.


Wrong. My mentality is taking vaccines on a regular basis does much more harm than good. Like any body process, the immune system needs to be used or it will grow weaker.

Me. I'm old enough to have been in the first generation to get polio shots. It was a common thing in the 1950's to know people in "iron lungs" (youngeer posters won't know what the hell I'm referring to, lucky for them). When reminders of the reasons for vaccinations disappear then it is easy to discount the need for them.



Obviously there is a difference between getting immunized against a life-altering, or life threatening, disease like polio(which I support), and taking a yearly flu shot(s).
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Postby mcgato » Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:49 am

I'm with guru on this. I have already stated in public that I openly dare any swine flu virus to invade my body.
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Postby gh » Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:52 am

guru wrote:[....
Wrong. My mentality is taking vaccines on a regular basis does much more harm than good. Like any body process, the immune system needs to be used or it will grow weaker. ...



Holy shit! And just what mechanism is that you think the vaccine process initiates if it isn't the immune system???
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Postby guru » Thu Oct 08, 2009 7:59 am

gh wrote:
guru wrote:[....
Wrong. My mentality is taking vaccines on a regular basis does much more harm than good. Like any body process, the immune system needs to be used or it will grow weaker. ...



Holy shit! And just what mechanism is that you think the vaccine process initiates if it isn't the immune system???



Posted already, but here's a nice synopsis.

http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines ... ession.htm
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Postby Marlow » Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:08 am

guru wrote:Posted already, but here's a nice synopsis.

Isn't that like saying lifting weights makes us tired, so we shouldn't do it if we want to get stronger? The end result of the immunization is that we are stronger against THAT particular germ, but the rest of our immune system returns to normal after a while. That's how I read it, anyway.
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Postby guru » Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:13 am

Marlow wrote:
guru wrote:Posted already, but here's a nice synopsis.

Isn't that like saying lifting weights makes us tired, so we shouldn't do it if we want to get stronger?


No, that's closer to what you and gh are saying.

My main point is you have an immune system for a reason. Getting sick occasionally helps keep it in tip-top shape. Being vaccinated regularly against things like the flu serve only to weaken the overall protection it gives to your body.
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Postby gh » Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:17 am

guru wrote:...

Posted already, but here's a nice synopsis.

http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines ... ession.htm


Sorry, but I place osteopaths right up there with phrenologists in the level of medical quackery.

Ask a real doctor.

edited to note that I hyperbolized in my original post; it's homeopaths who are with phrenologists; osteopaths are on a slightly lesser level of hell
Last edited by gh on Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Daisy » Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:19 am

guru wrote:Posted already, but here's a nice synopsis.
http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines ... ession.htm

I'm not sure I would trust such a source when they write:
Allopathy depresses important body functions, while making the body more toxic. Naturopathy helps the body eliminate toxins while supporting the body's immune functions.

That sounds like an agenda driven statement.

Another thing that struck me is quotes from scientists/doctors in the early 20th centrury.
"I never saw cancer in an un-vaccinated person."

Dr W B Clarke, circa 1909


I know little about the immune system but reading that article makes me think that they are exaggerating the size of any immune suppression, especially with respect to weakening ones immune system to a point where it cannot function effectively.
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Postby BisonHurdler » Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:24 am

jhc68 wrote:I don't think anti-vaccine people are neanderthals. They are parasites playing the odds. The mentality is that there is no need for them to be immunized because everyone else will.

Me. I'm old enough to have been in the first generation to get polio shots. It was a common thing in the 1950's to know people in "iron lungs" (youngeer posters won't know what the hell I'm referring to, lucky for them). When reminders of the reasons for vaccinations disappear then it is easy to discount the need for them.




Bingo. People crying out about how 1/1 million people may suffer some moderate adverse reaction forget that the shot they're getting probably protects against one of the diseases that used to infect half the population, while killing a significant percentage of those infected.
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Postby BisonHurdler » Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:26 am

guru wrote:
gh wrote:
guru wrote:[....
Wrong. My mentality is taking vaccines on a regular basis does much more harm than good. Like any body process, the immune system needs to be used or it will grow weaker. ...



Holy shit! And just what mechanism is that you think the vaccine process initiates if it isn't the immune system???



Posted already, but here's a nice synopsis.

http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines ... ession.htm



Guru, citing Mercola when trying to make a valid medical argument is like citing Britney Spears when trying to make a valid musical argument.

Furthermore, Mercola is as agenda-driven as they come, and full of garbage, to put it nicely.
Last edited by BisonHurdler on Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby BisonHurdler » Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:32 am

Daisy wrote:
Another thing that struck me is quotes from scientists/doctors in the early 20th centrury.
"I never saw cancer in an un-vaccinated person."

Dr W B Clarke, circa 1909




I found that hilarious and horrifying at the same time. The fact is, people who don't know any better will read that and think it's not an idiotic statement.
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Postby guru » Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:36 am

I'm certainly not saying I subscribe to that 1909 quote. But it's an undeniable fact that a healthy, fully charged immune system plays a vital role in cancer prevention. Just ask any AIDS patient.
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Postby tandfman » Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:44 am

BisonHurdler wrote: People crying out about how 1/1 million people may suffer some moderate adverse reaction forget that the shot they're getting probably protects against one of the diseases that used to infect half the population, while killing a significant percentage of those infected.

I suspect most of them aren't forgetting. It's just something they never knew.
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Postby Daisy » Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:44 am

guru wrote:I'm certainly not saying I subscribe to that 1909 quote. But it's an undeniable fact that a healthy, fully charged immune system plays a vital role in cancer prevention. Just ask any AIDS patient.

The major thing that saves us from cancer is apoptosis, the ability of unregulated cells to undergo programmed cell death. That happens regularly in our bodies and spews plenty of DNA/RNA/protein into our system.
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Postby BisonHurdler » Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:46 am

tandfman wrote:
BisonHurdler wrote: People crying out about how 1/1 million people may suffer some moderate adverse reaction forget that the shot they're getting probably protects against one of the diseases that used to infect half the population, while killing a significant percentage of those infected.

I suspect most of them aren't forgetting. It's just something they never knew.




True. Speaking of ignorance, someone else (a chiropractor friend of mine) pointed me in the direction of another Mercola article a few weeks ago that had to do with vaccines. Reading the comments/discussion at the bottom was kind of scary. I distinctly remember one lady asking [paraphrased since I don't have the exact souce]:

"My teenage son's best friend just got the meningitis vaccine because he's heading to college. Is it safe for my son to be around him since he can probably catch meningitis from him for the next few days?"
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Postby guru » Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:49 am

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Postby BisonHurdler » Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:52 am

I don't think the leap people are having difficulty making is from immune system to cancer so much as "vaccines ---> decreased immune system."

I understand the appeal of trying to have your body "build" its own defenses from the ground up. But a lot of the time it can't do that right off the bat (as evidenced by countless epidemic and endemic infections that have been wiped out/severely reduced in the industrialized nations).

If you get hit with a bug your body has never seen, you can have a "strong immune system" but still be completely blindsided by said bug. Now, if you've been inoculated against it, you've already armed yourself.

Consider the difference between passive and active immunity. Both have their place, but much/most of what immunizations do is confer active immunity, which is akin to teaching a man how to fish BEFORE he begins to starve to death.
Last edited by BisonHurdler on Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:01 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby gh » Thu Oct 08, 2009 8:58 am

SQUACKEE wrote:I'll take my chances....


The major medical principle you don't appear to understand here is that if it were just about YOU, then your stance would be fine. But if you catch it (or even if you don't; you can always be a carrier without being symptomatic), you then risk passing it on to other people, and if they're "rugged individualists" like you, then the whole thing snowballs.

I see this as a matter of social responsibility, not individual choice. That's the bottom line.

Particularly with a serious disease, not a take-two-aspirin-and-call-me-in-the-morning one.
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Postby guru » Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:03 am

BisonHurdler wrote:I don't think the leap people are having difficulty making is from immune system to cancer so much as "vaccines ---> decreased immune system."



Perhaps it's better to think of your immune system like your cardiovscular system. When you exercise, you tax your cardiovscular system, and in the process it becomes stronger and more efficient. Similarly, when you get sick your immune system is kicked into action, repelling the invading organism, also becoming stronger in the process. When humans turn to vaccines to prevent disease, and drugs to fight it's effects, it's much like riding a bike for exercise, but tying a rope to a car in front.

As I said, I'm not dismissing vaccines or drug therapy when it comes to life threatening ailments, or certain high risk groups. But aside from those circumstances, you're better off just risking being sick for a few days when you consider the long term benefits of a vibrant immune system.
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Postby BisonHurdler » Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:10 am

guru wrote:
BisonHurdler wrote:I don't think the leap people are having difficulty making is from immune system to cancer so much as "vaccines ---> decreased immune system."



Perhaps it's better to think of your immune system like your cardiovscular system. When you exercise, you tax your cardiovscular system, and in the process it becomes stronger and more efficient. Similarly, when you get sick your immune system is kicked into action, repelling the invading organism, also becoming stronger in the process. When humans turn to vaccines to prevent disease, and drugs to fight it's effects, it's much like riding a bike for exercise, but tying a rope to a car in front.

As I said, I'm not dismissing vaccines or drug therapy when it comes to life threatening ailments. But aside from those circumstances, you're better off just risking being sick for a few days when you consider the long term benefits of a vibrant immune system.



I disagree. Your analogy really only works if all we're doing is injecting IgG into people.

I DO consider the long term benefits of a vibrant immune system. That's why I get vaccinated.
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Postby bambam1729 » Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:16 am

gh wrote:
guru wrote:...

Posted already, but here's a nice synopsis.

http://www.mercola.com/article/vaccines ... ession.htm


Sorry, but I place osteopaths right up there with phrenologists in the level of medical quackery.

Ask a real doctor.

edited to note that I hyperbolized in my original post; it's homeopaths who are with phrenologists; osteopaths are on a slightly lesser level of hell


Actually, E. Garry, osteopaths are now fairly close to Western doctors. Many of them do standard residencies after they finish osteopathic college. I'm interviewing a guy tomorrow for a job who did an orthopaedic residency after osteopathy school.

We think you should get the vaccine if/when it becomes available. To not do so is playing with fire. Read about the 1918 Spanish flu pandemic sometime, if you don't think so. I certainly will get it, and fortunately, medical professionals are supposed to be first on the list to get it, so we can be around treat the victims of it. Having said that, and DrJay and pego can address this better than I, but the swine flu seems to be spreading a lot but not really killing as many as was postulated. (I know, I know, somebody will send me a link to somebody in Texas or Aqua Caliente who died - but a lot of people die from standard flu and that is never reported.)
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Postby kuha » Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:17 am

gh wrote:I see this as a matter of social responsibility, not individual choice. That's the bottom line.


That is precisely my take on this. Discussions such as this (and on many other subjects as well) illustrate fairly clearly that our sense of the collective social fabric, of our social responsibility to each other, is tenuous at best--much more tenuous than it was in previous generations. Some might see that as a triumph of individual freedom, but there is a much darker and (ultimately) more destructive side to it.
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Postby guru » Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:20 am

It's clear we are not going to see eye to eye on this Bison. I respect your stance, but respectfully disagree.

All I know is my personal experience, having never been vaccinated beyond the early childhood regimen. Working around high school kids every day in Ohio winters I get sick maybe once every 3 or 4 years, and never take any medication during the illness. At 42 I plan to stick with what's worked.
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Postby SQUACKEE » Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:20 am

kuha wrote:
gh wrote:I see this as a matter of social responsibility, not individual choice. That's the bottom line.


That is precisely my take on this. Discussions such as this (and on many other subjects as well) illustrate fairly clearly that our sense of the collective social fabric, of our social responsibility to each other, is tenuous at best--much more tenuous than it was in previous generations. Some might see that as a triumph of individual freedom, but there is a much darker and (ultimately) more destructive side to it.


Do youz guys think people should have a choice or should there be jail time for non-conformance?
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Postby kuha » Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:23 am

SQUACKEE wrote:
kuha wrote:
gh wrote:I see this as a matter of social responsibility, not individual choice. That's the bottom line.


That is precisely my take on this. Discussions such as this (and on many other subjects as well) illustrate fairly clearly that our sense of the collective social fabric, of our social responsibility to each other, is tenuous at best--much more tenuous than it was in previous generations. Some might see that as a triumph of individual freedom, but there is a much darker and (ultimately) more destructive side to it.


Do youz guys think people should have a choice or should there be jail time for non-conformance?


People clearly have all the choice in the world right now. We're simply commenting on the choices they make.

Are you in favor of jail time? Hanging in the public square?
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Postby SQUACKEE » Thu Oct 08, 2009 9:30 am

kuha wrote:
SQUACKEE wrote:
kuha wrote:
gh wrote:I see this as a matter of social responsibility, not individual choice. That's the bottom line.


That is precisely my take on this. Discussions such as this (and on many other subjects as well) illustrate fairly clearly that our sense of the collective social fabric, of our social responsibility to each other, is tenuous at best--much more tenuous than it was in previous generations. Some might see that as a triumph of individual freedom, but there is a much darker and (ultimately) more destructive side to it.


Do youz guys think people should have a choice or should there be jail time for non-conformance?


People clearly have all the choice in the world right now. We're simply commenting on the choices they make.

Are you in favor of jail time? Hanging in the public square?


No, im pro choice doncha know!
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