Rob wrote:Roald, we were around at the same time in the 80s - I remember you well and have tremendous respect for your talents as a javelin thrower. I discussed your 75m standing throw from 1985 with Uwe Hohn in Berlin at the recent WCs - he just smiled and, well, I don't think it's a WR...
Interesting you mention Uwe Hohn - I got an email from him a couple of week ago asking how I was still able to throw so far.
Also, I remember in Zurich in 1985 warming up on the fields outside the stadium. Uwe was throwing 70 / 71m standing and I was hitting 71 / 72m. I felt really good going into the competition until he picked up some bent, rusted, rattling piece of crap and threw 94m!!!!!!!!! Lessoned learned - warm ups don't count.............
:shock:
Uwe's not too good these days - the back injury that finished his career in 85 was operated on and the DDR surgeons attempted to use carbon fibre implants but it was not successful, and sadly he's now only a shadow of his former self.
Uwe's not too good these days - the back injury that finished his career in 85 was operated on and the DDR surgeons attempted to use carbon fibre implants but it was not successful, and sadly he's now only a shadow of his former self.
Hi Rob
That's a shame about Uwe Hohn - I remember him as being one of the most exciting athletes from the 80s. Do you mean he's unable to throw the javelin now, or do you mean he's disabled as a result of the injury/operation?
I think it would be inappropriate and a little unfair to speculate too much on Uwe's state of health on an English-speaking Internet forum, but when I met him recently in Berlin I would say he is not only unable to throw a javelin (far), but he looked partially lame. Allegedly, and backed up by the opinion of a mutual friend (who was also in the DDR Team in the 80s, and knows Uwe very well) it was caused by the unsuccessful operation. Obviously it wasn't something I wanted to discuss with him, as I don't know him very well.
The great thing about watching Uwe was that whenever he picked up a javelin, something very special could be about to happen. It didn't always turn out that way, of course, and he wasn't perhaps the most consistent thrower of his era (compared to, say, Zelezny), but when he did get it right.... just stand (well) back and watch in awe. After all, he was the reason behind the change in javelin specification and was one of the rare field eventers that all the TV cameras panned onto when it was his turn to throw - regardless of what was happening on the track.
Marlow wrote:... Besides that one ridiculous Hohn throw, wasn't Zelezny a better thrower overall (new vs. old implement)?
Apples & oranges: Zelezny had 14 years in the rankings, Hohn only 3, so you'd expect Z to have a closer bunching at the top.
Nonethless, when he retired, H had 6 of the top 7 throws ever; when Z retired he had 6/6.
The old javelin also more conducive to anomalous throws because of the far greater possibility of wind aid (no idea if H's monster was such, but one would guess so).
And for those who don't remember him - yes, he was pretty large (6' 6" and 250lbs). Whilst not the fastest javelin thrower on the circuit, he was almost certainly the strongest we have ever seen. (He could hold his own with Udo Beyer in the weights room).
I think it would be inappropriate and a little unfair to speculate too much on Uwe's state of health on an English-speaking Internet forum, but when I met him recently in Berlin I would say he is not only unable to throw a javelin (far), but he looked partially lame. Allegedly, and backed up by the opinion of a mutual friend (who was also in the DDR Team in the 80s, and knows Uwe very well) it was caused by the unsuccessful operation. Obviously it wasn't something I wanted to discuss with him, as I don't know him very well.
Thanks Rob,
I appreciate your discretion. I remember Uwe as this rare combination of someone who was physically the best at his event whilst simultaneously being the strongest mentally too. I first saw him in coverage of the 82 Euros when he peaked to win a final that was of a very high standard. He looked head and shoulders above everyone else even then.
His performances in 84/85 were astonishing, as he combined that massive world record with consistent superiority over anyone he competed against, and he was the physical embodiment of what I expected a top thrower to be as a child - ie, massive and visually superior to his competition. He just looked better than anyone else, in the same way I guess that Usain Bolt looks a class apart from his competition now. I also remember him as someone who had a ready smile after the tension of the competition - he came across as a gentleman.
If he hadn't had that disastrous operation I would think he would have continued his domination with the new javelin, and garnered a host of Olympic/World/European Golds. He was only 23 or something when he left the scene, after all. He may have been the greatest "What if" in athletics, as his domination in his heyday was complete. Jan must be the greatest because of his catalogue of golds, but I think had Uwe had a normal career span (plus not been boycotted out of the Olympics) he would have had 3 or 4 Olympic Golds of his own.
Rob wrote:...... After all, he was the reason behind the change in javelin specification ......
I believe this is largely one of the sport's great myths.
The proposal to change the specs came into being a significant amount of time before the '84 IAAF Congress (or else it wouldn't have been an item that could have been considered). The actual discussion/vote on the subject came only a matter of days/weeks after his big throw.
While there is no doubt that the monster toss may have sealed the deal, as I recall from the time there seemed to be agreement beforehand that the spec-change vote was a foregone conclusion.
Rog, I agree completely with all your remarks - he had the aura of an 'all time' champion and demonstrated, during his relatively short career, that he had the attributes required to become the ultimate javelin thrower. His injury and the ensuing operation were an absolute tragedy.
Rob wrote:...... After all, he was the reason behind the change in javelin specification ......
I believe this is largely one of the sport's great myths.
The proposal to change the specs came into being a significant amount of time before the '84 IAAF Congress (or else it wouldn't have been an item that could have been considered). The actual discussion/vote on the subject came only a matter of days/weeks after his big throw.
While there is no doubt that the monster toss may have sealed the deal, as I recall from the time there seemed to be agreement beforehand that the spec-change vote was a foregone conclusion.
Unfortunately.
You may well be right, having closer connections to the IAAF than me, but I think the 104.80m in the Jahn Stadion in East Berlin in 1984 and the hurried change in javelin design are not unrelated. Prior to Uwe's monster throw, the record was Petranoff's 99.72m (from the year before), which isn't much further than Zelezny's current record of 98.48m, although I am not aware of any debates currently ongoing to change the spec again (?). Maybe 100m was the psychological breakwater - and going nearly 5m beyond in one throw simply accelerated the IAAF decision?
Thanks (since it backs up my memories!) for the REAL STORY link, which includes this:
<<On July 20, 1984 (three weeks before the Olympic Games and two weeks before the L.A. Congress), Uwe Hohn (GDR) hurled the javelin to the formidable distance of 104.80m and ever since then the media have incorrectly reported that this throw was the cause for the change in the rules. The information given above clearly shows that this was not the case as applications for change to be considered at the Congress had to be submitted to the member federations as early as four months before the Congress.>>
I would guess that the genesis of all this goes as much to Moscow '80, as anywhere, with the shenanigans that led to Jim Dunaway penning a piece for T&FN called Kulibaba And The 40 Thieves (Dainis Kula having won the OG with a patently flat throw).
gh wrote:I would guess that the genesis of all this goes as much to Moscow '80, as anywhere, with the shenanigans that led to Jim Dunaway penning a piece for T&FN called Kulibaba And The 40 Thieves (Dainis Kula having won the OG with a patently flat throw).
More precisely, he opened with two fouls, then got a mark good enough to advance with his controversial third throw (I don't think anyone filed an official protest...) and nailed the winner on a patently legit fourth.
In response to gh's note on Hohn's 104.80. it wasn't aided by any material level of wind. The men's long jump, held at the same time as the JT (both began at 7.35 pm) saw 50+ jumps with the wind averaging +0.4 with a range of -1.8 to +1.9. Interestingly, World Champion Detlef Michel responded to Hohn's WR with 3 throws over 90m [90.70-92.48-92.20]. A pretty good meet that day with a second WR [Ludmila Andonova 2.07], and goodies such as Drechsler (still Daute then) 7.32/-0.2, Moder winning the "B" Hammer with 257'1 (78.36), while Juri Tamm won the A event with 269'1 [82.02 - 5 throws at 81.26 or better] ahead of OG winner Tiainen 80.42, Litvinov 80.18; Kocembova ran 49.36, Dombrowski 8.36m, GDR records in the W-3k (Bruns 8:36.38) and W-DT (Beyer 73.10)
Except that it's difficult/impossible to tell how much aiding wind there was in the javelin based on wind readings in races/jumps (unless it was in a deep, fully enclosed stadium). Not at all uncommon for there to be significant wind up where big-time javelins go even though "still" at track level.
('02 World Cup in Madrid is a great example of a place where there was a steady paper-storm up in the announce booth and little in the way of untoward anemometer readings)
gh wrote:While there is no doubt that the monster toss may have sealed the deal, as I recall from the time there seemed to be agreement beforehand that the spec-change vote was a foregone conclusion.
Unfortunately.
If you're saying that changing the jav specs was a bad idea, I must disagree. Totally apart from the length factor, there was always a safety factor with javs landing flat and sliding sometimes considerable distances on the ground, occasionally ending its journey in a bystander's foot or ankle.
Moreover, I really think the event is much more aesthetically pleasing to fans when the jav sticks upon landing, which is much more likely to happen with the current implement.
And finally, or course, by sharply reduce the incidence of flat landings, you also make things much easier for the officials, and remove many controversial calls, which not infrequently seemed wrong. It amounts to an improvement in the fairness of the competition.
knockout wrote:What a great thread, rare snippets of informations from those who are in contact with one of the legends of our sport!!! Thank you for sharing!!!
Such a shame that Uwe is in a bad way now.
Uwe Hohn is now hired by the athletic team of Liaoning Province in China - http://www.ln-tgzx.com/laac/msg/item/213/89 - judging from the picture he seems quite fine; glad to see him again!
Since this was bumped, let me make the following prediction:
That even though it definitely was landing issues, not distances, that led to the change in the implement in the mid-1980's, nonetheless, Hohn's WR throw did go from the field event semicircle in a standard track stadium all the way to a few feet short of the other field event semicircle, and if someone throws the current implement that far, the IAAF will find some justification for changing the implement or the rules again. The alternative would be to hold the javelin outside of stadiums, and we know how the IAAF feels about holding field events outside the stadium in major competitions. But they are never going to let javelins start hitting the tartan/mondo at the other end of the track.
Dilan Esper wrote: But they are never going to let javelins start hitting the tartan/mondo at the other end of the track.
I don't think we have to worry about that for a while. For the last 9 years only 3 men, Thorkildsen, Pitkamaki and Greer have thrown over 91m.
For what it's worth I'm solidly in the Zelezny camp. So Hohn was bigger an stronger? So what? They are not throwing 5kg javs
At 5 different meets Jan threw farther than any man alive. His best was 5 meters ahead of the next guy, Pariviainen. Technically I'd rather watch Zelezny than Hohn. His lightning fast strike was absolutely unreal.
Hohn was fabulous but I think Zelezny was better. A couple of more cms. and he would have 4 Gold medals, and this was in the Javelin, and not the Discus where a 20 year career is not impossible.
Anybody who thinks Jan could never have thrown over 104m with the old jav? Not me!
gh wrote:I would guess that the genesis of all this goes as much to Moscow '80, as anywhere, with the shenanigans that led to Jim Dunaway penning a piece for T&FN called Kulibaba And The 40 Thieves (Dainis Kula having won the OG with a patently flat throw).
More precisely, he opened with two fouls, then got a mark good enough to advance with his controversial third throw (I don't think anyone filed an official protest...) and nailed the winner on a patently legit fourth.
Wasn't there also a fuss about officials opening the doors at the end of the stadium only when Kula threw, to allow the wind to blow ? Or was that just part of the general anti-Soviet whingeing we were bombarded with in '80 (Munkelt/Puchkov impeded Casanas, Aussie Ian Campbell was cheated by officials in the TJ, etc.) ?
berkeley wrote:Wasn't there also a fuss about officials opening the doors at the end of the stadium only when Kula threw, to allow the wind to blow ? Or was that just part of the general anti-Soviet whingeing we were bombarded with in '80 (Munkelt/Puchkov impeded Casanas, Aussie Ian Campbell was cheated by officials in the TJ, etc.) ?
Kula and the other Soviets, yes. When Kula showed up for the qualification in Helsinki '83 there were people yelling "open the gates!"
berkeley wrote:Wasn't there also a fuss about officials opening the doors at the end of the stadium only when Kula threw, to allow the wind to blow ? Or was that just part of the general anti-Soviet whingeing we were bombarded with in '80 (Munkelt/Puchkov impeded Casanas, Aussie Ian Campbell was cheated by officials in the TJ, etc.) ?
As far as I can recall, video of Campbell showed that he did not drag his trailing leg, unsurprising given the mid-17s he was jumping. If you believe complaining about blatant crap officiating os wrong, I hope you are conducting an ongoing campaign to recover Giovanni Evangilista's medal.....
berkeley wrote:Wasn't there also a fuss about officials opening the doors at the end of the stadium only when Kula threw, to allow the wind to blow ? Or was that just part of the general anti-Soviet whingeing we were bombarded with in '80 (Munkelt/Puchkov impeded Casanas, Aussie Ian Campbell was cheated by officials in the TJ, etc.) ?
As far as I can recall, video of Campbell showed that he did not drag his trailing leg, unsurprising given the mid-17s he was jumping. If you believe complaining about blatant crap officiating os wrong, I hope you are conducting an ongoing campaign to recover Giovanni Evangilista's medal.....
No, I don't necessarily believe it was wrong, I was just remarking on the intense politicization of those Games. Even with the absence of the US and cohorts, the huge preponderance of medals won by the USSR and its satellites in events they were not traditionally strong in was little hard to swallow. On the other hand, home field advantage, the promise of generous compensation and perhaps the threat of sanction if things went the other way, must have been a powerful motivation.
berkeley wrote:Wasn't there also a fuss about officials opening the doors at the end of the stadium only when Kula threw, to allow the wind to blow ? Or was that just part of the general anti-Soviet whingeing we were bombarded with in '80 (Munkelt/Puchkov impeded Casanas, Aussie Ian Campbell was cheated by officials in the TJ, etc.) ?
As far as I can recall, video of Campbell showed that he did not drag his trailing leg, unsurprising given the mid-17s he was jumping. If you believe complaining about blatant crap officiating os wrong, I hope you are conducting an ongoing campaign to recover Giovanni Evangilista's medal.....
BTW, I'm not sure it's true that because Campbell was jumping ~17.50, he could not have dragged a foot during the hop phase. I'm not saying he did, just that it's not that unlikely.
What year was the foot drag foul discontinued? We used to have a specific official to watch for tht until someone realized it was hindrance not a help. I thought it was before 1980.. but then tempus not only fugits, it sometimes languishes ..
Re some of the comments above about the 80 Olympics, the advantage wasn't given to the Eastern Bloc in general, just to the Soviet Union, even at the expense of other Eastern Bloc countries. Examples would include Marlies Gohr's faulty starting blocks in the 100, which gave the advantage to Kondratyeva, the 4x400 team substitutions which favoured the Soviets at the expense of the GDR etc. The Soviets cheated blatantly and everyone else suffered - Campbell and De Oliveira in the triple jump, Delis in the discus and so on.
