We all know that the great VCB was nursing injuries this year. Even still she managed silver in the 200, but finished out of the medals in the 100.
Her and Muna were the only major players to attempt a double in these world championships.
If you look at Osaka, Berlin and Beijing she seems to perform much better when she focuses on one event. In Osaka I believe the 100m rounds is the reason Allyson blew her out in the 200m. In Beijing she only runs the deuce and wins handily. This year she doubles again and doesnt win either.
Can she rebound in the 100m? It's a different race than when she won in Osaka with an 11.0x. Should she focus on the 200m? Seeing that she's 27 and will be 30 in London does she continue to try and double in majors?
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Is Veronica Campbell Brown at a Crossroads?
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Is Veronica Campbell Brown at a Crossroads?
I see your point, taking Sturrup and McKenzie as a proxy I think VCB has a 10.74 in her or a 21.70 but only if she concentrates on one event.
That said, I heard an interview with her where she declares that she hates to lose and when that happens more than winning she would prefer to step away from the sport. She's a married woman and realistically at 27, might be looking to capitalize on her best years of youth or see her best years as being behind her, so one would have to ask about her hunger to continue vs her instinctive call. I think if she's hungry enough there is a pie in the sky for her.
Some very valid points, TD. For me, VCB should continue to do a lot of 100s on the circuit, as she has to have the speed to get out on Allyson, but I'd rather see her focus on just the 200m (and 3rd leg of the 4x100m) in champs
Realistically, with injuries aside and assuming Sherone back next year, she is the slowest and oldest of the Top 4 JAM women (10.73, 10.75, 10.82 vs 10.85) and at her age, with her level of conditioning already high, I'm not sure where she finds the extra to win titles. I'd rather see VCB winning titles and getting that elusive WC 200m and 3rd straight Oly gold than a 4th place and a silver again
As an Allyson Felix fan, my favorite female track athlete, I saw Veronica smoke her last year in the OG's 200. I saw her buddy, Tyson Gay, injured last year run PRs in both the 100m and 200m. If VCB still wants to compete, and recoups from injuries, she might be better than ever. If she is, will somebody please tell her to leave Allyson alone?
I wouldn't count her out of the 100m either. If she gets a good start she can still hang with the best.
I think Muna Lee would have medaled in the 200 in both Beijing and Berlin if she had skipped the 100.
Re: Is Veronica Campbell Brown at a Crossroads?
i would like to see her continue doubling. she's a tough runner and has shown that she's no pansy and can handle the rounds/pressure. the other bahamian (sp) women seem to do well with performing doubles at major meets even into their older ages. i would love to one day see her go sub 11/sub 22 in the same meet she would stamp herself as one of the greatest female sprinters of all time if she could ever pull it off. with the uncertainty of our sport why not just give it a go?
Re: Is Veronica Campbell Brown at a Crossroads?
What's more valuable... A silver and a 4th place finish from a double attempt or... One Gold earned from concentrating on your marquee event?
I think for some people (Bolt excluded) it's not wise to be a jack of two trades and a master of none.
Sanya Richards is world class at 200 but is very wise to concentrate on the 400, where she's almost unbeatable. She has made quite a reseme for herself, and $$$, by sticking with one. The 100-200 is a doable double, but depending on one's talent and the strength of field, that person could be best served by getting the sure gold rather than a pair of bronzes. Or a silver and 4th place.
I reckon if she hadn't messed up jam trials in 08 she would of got silver in 100 and gold in the 200(which she obviously did). I think the only reason she didn't do so well this year is because of injuries and doubling isn't such a big deal. It also depends a lot on her competitors. When she won world 100's her competitors wasn't running particularly quick, when she won 200 gold in 08 felix wasn't in same form as she was in this year and 07.
She's got plenty of good titles under her belt, she got a silver from an injury filled season it's not exactly bad.
exactly the assertion bandied about that she can't/shoudn't double up is nonsense she ran 10.88/21.94 in '08 trials - that's the best double since inger miller 9y before ( excluding marion ) no one in their right minds woud have thought that 10.88 woudn't get her into top 3 in trials - she musta been shocked as anyone that it didn't make top 3 let alone win, considering best time by any other jama at low-altitude prior to trials was a 10.96 by kerron if she'd been in peking 100, i think she wouda won that as well as the 200 - see the ridiculous 11+ she ran end of season with something astounding like a 0.5s rt - iirc that was a 10.69 with a good rt of 0.13s
Agreed. VCB won gold in the 200 in 2004 OG after a bronze in the 100 (I know that she ran the 100 at the OG and I think she took third). A healthy VCB was not going to beat Felix in 2007 nor in 2009 whether she doubled or not! As stated earlier, the Felix of 2007 and 2009 is quite different than the one at the end of 2008.
I don't think anyone is saying she CAN'T double up - but that if she does, she is likely to find herself without a Gold medal from now on.
She may well post two incredible times in one champs (2008 JAM trials) but what's the point when those times are not winning major titles anymore. Sorry, but I struggle to believe that VCB will get to that 10.57 form, eldy, whatever the stats of that race suggest (though I doubt she'd need it to win, in fairness) whereas I can see the 10.7x girls getting better.
So your telling me that a VC of form 2008 would not beat allyson of 2007 or 2009. Thats nonsense. If VC focused on only the 200 then the gold medal will be up in the air
I've heard the argument re: Sturrup and DFM before and I don't think it applies to VCB. Sturrup and DFM are virtually unrivaled in their country and always have been, hence their success and longevity IMO. I think the lack of stress of having to make their team in whatever event(s) they choose to compete in contributes to not only their longevity but the way their able to prepare for major championships...only truly having to peak once instead of twice like the US women and now, the JAM women as well. VCB used to have the benefit of this until Fraser and Kerron came on the scene and IMO, if and when Sherone returns, it will be heightened even more. This is not at all to say VCB can't go faster...I just feel as if the level of competition has caught up to her in her own country and as a result, it will be harder for her to sustain the type of longevity we're seeing from Sturrup and DFM. And this doesn't even take into account the issues that surrounded VCB and the 4x1...that's got to be taxing on the mind and body as well and I don't see any signs of that type of activity slowing in 2011 or 2012.
VCB is already one for the ages. To my knowledge, of all the great women sprinters in history, VCB is the only 2X Olympic champion in the w200m. Had the Jamaican relay team not screwed up and won as expected in China, she would have tied the record for most Oly gold by a woman (4). I could be wrong about these stats but until one of the following occurs I won't count our girl AF as a sure thing against VCB (although I can wish): 1. AF takes her game to a higher level 2. VCB retires.
10.88/21.94 wouda won the double in athens
Eldy - I get that, but the world has changed since 2004 - the other JAM girls came along and started knocking out 10.7s in champ finals. She'd have to knock a tenth off her PB just to have got silver in Berlin. Do you really see that happening from someone who is 27 and been around for a number of years? Sure, there are some girls that do it (I think Jeter is a similar age) but VCB has been at that level for a long time, whereas Jeter has only been pro for a few years, I think
VCB is my favourite out of those girls, which is why I'd rather see her getting Gold rather than 4th places and a silver
When VCB doubled in 2007 she won the 100m gold barely nipping Lauryn in 11 flat.
After those rounds and that of the 200m she was crushed by a rested Felix. Notice that Felix withdrew from the 100 in that WC to concentrate on the 200. Also notice that both Kerron and SAF did the same thing this year. In 2008 VCB only ran the 200 in Beijing and won handily. She doubles again this year and wins neither. And it apparent that the ante has been upped in the 100m (10.7s  ).
Felix may very well have won in 2007 even if VCB hadnt doubled, but she sure wouldnt have won by that margin. I for one believe that Felix would've won in Beijing had VCB made the 100m team. One thing that must be remembered about double attempts that seems to get lost: the level of your competition. You can count the women who've doubled successfully (win both) at 100/200 meters on one handin a major. The only ones I can name off hand are FloJo , Marion Jones and Kelli White .
I believe VBH, MK and JMP did it in the 200/400. But a greater concern than winning both in a double attempt IMO, is the potential sacrifice of winning neither. There is an obvious price thats paid when you run rounds and focus on two events when your competition only has one to manage.
jim, 27y is approaching peak
that 10.88/21.94 & 21.74 & 11.01 with 0.56s rt was only last year london may be a year too far gone, but daewoo in '11 woud make her 29y & still viable shot morally she is a 10.6 gal with that shanghai race - 10.7 gals shoudn't frighten her
VCB has at least one good Olympic left in her at least.... she will only be 30 by that time and if she goes into London 2012 uninjured she has as good a shot as anyone in the 100 or 200... depending on which she actually gets to run (based on her personal decision and the outcome of the Jamaican trials). Obviously at her best she can atleast push out a 21.7x which will win the 200 in most cases. As for the 100, I would say that she is a 10.7x girl when executed correctly... heck she is 10.9x girl now and has had SERIOUS setbacks throughout the season. The Olympics seems to bring out something different in VCB I believe more so than the WC IMHO.
As for her doubling.... Lets just say its going to be hard for ANY Jamaican woman to double in any majors unless they already have a bye. With an in fit Sherone, Kerron, SAF and VCB... not to mention the ones on the edge like McClaughlin (who is seriously rounding into form and seems to be a 200m specialist) and Facey (slowly getting into her own).... the older gals like Brooks and Bailey as well as the ones for the future like Jura Levy and Carrie Russel... Things are going to get very interesting in the 100/200 in the next 3-5 years here in Jamaica.
TD - You think the same could be said for the Ladies in the 90's?
I think Krabbe was the only one during the 90's to do that double @ the '91 World Champs. - Ottey won the 200 in '93 and lost the 100 with the same time to Devers. - Torrence won the 100 in 10.85 I think in '95, won the 200 sub 22 but was DQ'd for a lane violation. - '97 P-Block lost the 100 to Marion, won the 200 but in a average time. - '99 Marion won the 100, Inger Miller finishing 2nd then for the 200 MJ injured her back and Inger won the 200.
& everyone agrees that was a pathetic race beset by nerves, injury-build-ups, etc only win was important, not time
she showed she was capable of 21.74 the next year - clearly that 22.34 for 2nd was in no way representative of her potential - indicates severely curtailed build-up
you seem to have this delusion that whatever applies to felix applies to vc former is a 200/400 gal ( with an excellent 100 ) whereas latter is a 100/200 gal with global titles at both distances
& once again, like osaka, her 22.35 indicates a severely curtailed 200 build-up thru likely injury
you're dreaming 10.88/21.94 in trials americans expect to improve from trials to globals you don't expect vc to do the same ?!
& inger went 10.79/21.77 in '99 - times which wouda won the double in '01/'03/'04/'05/'07
see above doubling costs nothing for 100m as it's 1st race - in 200 it's unlikely to be worth more than 0.10s for a highly-tuned athlete
70+y of history says otherwise - men's side : last 4 100/200 at globals have been successful doubles - someone have told gatlin, tyson & bolt to skip the 200 ???
eldrick, although its apparent that you're all too familiar with what delusional is, I don't appreciate the characterization based on my opinion.
All you did was type a bunch of rationalizing mumbo jumbo avoiding the facts of the situation. For example, telling us what the men have done in double attempts  when clearly we're discussing the women.
Stick to the facts; you might try using mine since you don't have any that are relevant. Doubling does cost something in the 100 even though its the first race. Or else why would SAF, Kerron and Jeter for example make the decision to drop the 200? What it "costs" is focus and training. Its' obvious what the 100 rounds does to the 200 effort, hence the discussion. Its also obvious that at this point doubling probably isnt the best route to gold for VCB as the EVIDENCE shows it affects your potential to win either event.
i'm afraid all the tripe is inexhaustibly coming from your fingertips
saf/kerron/etc weren't reigning 200 champ in peking put your money where your mouth is : what do you think vc wouda run the peking 100 if they'd given her the discretionary & then what do you think her 21.74 wouda been
Well the point is that on the women's side a successful double is a rare event. As I mentioned Flojo, Marion and Kelli did it...and what else they may have in common I won't speculate on. But those 3 names should tell you something about what it takes for a woman to double and win both. Not to say it can't be done, just that its rare and at times has taken a "special kind of woman." It's more than obvious that focusing on both events can hamper your efforts to win either. Take VCB for example. Its very difficult to run rounds in the 100 going through a final and then run 200m rounds and beat someone (Felix) who may have beaten you even if you hadnt doubled. One has to consider the level of competition when considering doubles. With Felix capable of 21.8 and multiple women running 10.7 and 10.8, VCB must be very calculating in how she proceeds. Her level of competition is such that even if she doesnt double she may not be the favorite so when she does she more than risks winning either.
Do you mean Beijing? As for what her 21.74 would've been, what was her 200m time in the last two WCs when she attempted a double? I'd say somewhere in that neighnorhood. The fact is HISTORY CLEARLY questions how practical double attempts are especially on the women's side. And even on the mens' side...wasnt Usain Bolt the first man in 20 years (since King Carl) to successfully double in the Olympic Games?
TD makes a good point, a big thing to look at now is the level of competition VCB is facing right now. If all her major competitors were doubling along with her she would have a far better chance, but as it stands her major competitors will likely not be doubling, or at least one of them and when winning means 10.7x and 21.8x at the very least in ok conditions then you have to be careful. I don't see SAF getting any slower anytime soon and she ran 10.79 in a semi and then 10.73 in the finals. Jeter ran 10.83 in the semi and had her not buckled under the pressure I think she would vaibly be a 10.7high girl at least. Then there is KS that cruised through the rounds and already has 2 10.75's under her belt, and one in nearly 0 wind at that. Lee ran 10.78 wind aided at her trials in the 100 and had she not gotten injured I think she would be 10.8low at the very least. In the 200 she has KS to contend with (if she were to focus on it) who has already sun-22 (and I dare say she is in better shape this year). Allyson is running 22.8x and from the looks at things seems to have no intention to double anytime soon.
why don't you try some rational thinking ?! how about the most recent double prior to peking as a baseline - 10.88/21.94
if it's never been done before you have leg to stand on it has & you don't
& see '05 & '07 with same number of rounds & level of competition...
*Sigh*
Look eldrick... We're discussing VCB, her current level of competition, age, history, potential, etc. ..realistically. Not FloJo.
Join us. Last edited by TrackDaddy on Sun Aug 30, 2009 11:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
I cannot argue against this point.
If not for the toe injury, VCB medals in 100m this year and forces Allyson to PR if she wants to win. VCB should continue to double as long as she is able to do her full programme of training. If for any reason training is curtailed, she should drop one of them. What VCB needs to complete her sprinting is to become a consistently good starter. Athens 2004 showed me that.
eh ? how about using a more recent benchmark for doubling in peking - inger's times in '99 i suggest you get with the program rather than 20y ago & i certainly am not interested in joining "us" if this is the paucity of thought required
Inger Miller did not win double gold.
Only 3 women outside of VCB have done that in the last 20 years. TD name those women. 1 of those ladies tested postive and one is a self admitted cheat. FloJo, lets just say VCB aint no FloJo and she is nt even close.
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