Jim Brown Calls Out Tiger Woods


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Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Jul 02, 2009 2:06 pm

Speedfirst wrote:All due respect, with respect to Ali not be able to touch Brown regarding community activism. well maybe he didn't have to. They weren't and aren't in competition in that area. There is this thing, where folks bring something different and/or unique to the table.

P.S. Whitlock isn't unlike most, if not all journalist, on a soap box.

Furthermore, we must remember that Brown didn't get involved in community activism until he retired, and unfortunately, Ali had very few years after he retired that he would have been physically able to be an effective activist and speaker.
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JB

Postby bijanc » Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:09 pm

Brown started his first Black economic empowerment org. in Cleveland before retiring.
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Postby TrackDaddy » Thu Jul 02, 2009 3:51 pm

paulthefan wrote:
TrackDaddy wrote:And Jim Brown has a right to his opinion, but obviously Mike and Tiger dont share it.

Fact is, if they did share his opinion, they wouldnt be nearly as rich and successful outside of the playing field as they are.


Jason Whitlock (agrees with paulthefan on Ali) had it right:
"Jim Brown is the most important athlete in American history. Everything we foolishly credit Muhammad Ali for standing for Jim Brown actually did and does. The reverence we shower on the self-serving, draft-dodging, Joe Frazier-is-a-monkey Muhammad Ali more appropriately belongs at Jim Brown's feet."


Jim Brown is a great man, his Amer-I-can program is a stroke of genius wrapped in moral clarity. He did more for man than more than a few civil rights con artists ever did. Nevertheless some of the misanthropy that comes from his mouth is surprising, he can almost sound like a spoiled brat with a jealous streak. I dont like his hat either.


Jason Whitlock has the NERVE to call Ali a draft dodger?

Ali couldnt even purchase a home where he wanted to in the city he grew up in.

And he was the heavyweight champion of the world. And the US wanted him to fight like he was free?

Whitlock makes white folk happy with that nonsense.

Ali stood up for a cause at a time when people were being assasinated. He wouldve been SAFER in Vietnam.

JIm put himself in a similar position; Whitlock is a lunatic if he thinks we have to choose between the two. I just look like this. In reality, that's what he wants white people to do so he can sell papers. Some white people like it when prominent minorities are brought down...and vice versa.

Star Jones rose to fame when she, being black, stood on national TV and claimed that OJ was guilty...long before his trial.

Did you know that's how she got famous?

Look at the guy on Nightline. He was forever put on a pedestal when he tricked Michael Jackson and humiliated him on national TV. Did you know that's how he got the Nightline job?

Whitlock must be looking for a higher paying gig. :roll:
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Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:22 pm

TD, you nailed it. Most Black folks revere both Jim Brown and Muhammad Ali. Furthermore, Jim Brown was a big admirer and supporter of Ali and he was in Ali's corner when he beat Liston the first time. Whitlock needs to check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eLrJMb6wpk
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Postby dukehjsteve » Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:21 pm

Do I have some things wrong, or did not Brown:

1) throw a woman off a motel balcony
2) beat up someone's car with a radio antenna ?
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Postby TrackDaddy » Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:12 pm

dukehjsteve wrote:Do I have some things wrong, or did not Brown:

1) throw a woman off a motel balcony
2) beat up someone's car with a radio antenna ?


Peter denied Christ 3 times.

MLK allegedly committed adultery.

So did Kennedy.

Thomas Jefferson raped his slaves.

What's your point?
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Postby TrackDaddy » Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:23 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:TD, you nailed it. Most Black folks revere both Jim Brown and Muhammad Ali. Furthermore, Jim Brown was a big admirer and supporter of Ali and he was in Ali's corner when he beat Liston the first time. Whitlock needs to check this out:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0eLrJMb6wpk


That's powerful.

The truth will set you free.

Whitlock likes to challenge people to think and he likes to present himself as being objective. Normally he does okay.

If I had a nickle for every time a white guy has steered me toward a Whitlock article... :lol:

Or black guys who've tried to get me to see the positives in Jesse Jackson. :roll: At one time Jesse and Al were quite productive.

But now?

Joker was crying crocodile tears when Obama got elected. Just a few months earlier he called him a niqqer.

Jesse needs to fold up the rainbow coalition tent and head for the house. He can take that self hate hairdo wearing Sharpton with him. Who's ever heard of a preacher/politicians who've never held office and have no church?

Did somebody say it's free speech week? :D
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Postby dukehjsteve » Fri Jul 03, 2009 6:17 am

TrackDaddy wrote:
dukehjsteve wrote:Do I have some things wrong, or did not Brown:

1) throw a woman off a motel balcony
2) beat up someone's car with a radio antenna ?


Peter denied Christ 3 times.

MLK allegedly committed adultery.

So did Kennedy.

Thomas Jefferson raped his slaves.

What's your point?


My point is obvious... Brown has the tendency to behave like an idiot when things do not go the way he wants. Or do you think the misdeeds you cite above exonerate Brown from his ?!
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Jul 03, 2009 6:51 am

dukehjsteve wrote:
TrackDaddy wrote:
dukehjsteve wrote:Do I have some things wrong, or did not Brown:

1) throw a woman off a motel balcony
2) beat up someone's car with a radio antenna ?


Peter denied Christ 3 times.

MLK allegedly committed adultery.

So did Kennedy.

Thomas Jefferson raped his slaves.

What's your point?


My point is obvious... Brown has the tendency to behave like an idiot when things do not go the way he wants. Or do you think the misdeeds you cite above exonerate Brown from his ?!

I don't think anyone here excuses Brown's history with women, at least I don't. I think the point TD was making is that you shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water.
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Postby TrackDaddy » Fri Jul 03, 2009 7:42 am

Exactly, jc.
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Postby paulthefan » Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:49 am

jazzcyclist wrote:...at least I don't. I think the point TD was making is that you shouldn't throw the baby out with the bath water.


right, sometimes the bathwater is worth saving.
Last edited by paulthefan on Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:00 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Pego » Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:57 am

TrackDaddy wrote:Jesse needs to fold up the rainbow coalition tent and head for the house. He can take that self hate hairdo wearing Sharpton with him.


We've disagreed previously, not this time.
BTW, IMHO there is no comparison between Ali's and JB's contribution to human rights. Ali wins hands down.
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Postby paulthefan » Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:54 am

well here goes, ..
TrackDaddy wrote:
paulthefan wrote:Jason Whitlock (agrees with paulthefan on Ali) had it right:
"Jim Brown is the most important athlete in American history. Everything we foolishly credit Muhammad Ali for standing for Jim Brown actually did and does. The reverence we shower on the self-serving, draft-dodging, Joe Frazier-is-a-monkey Muhammad Ali more appropriately belongs at Jim Brown's feet."


Jim Brown is a great man, his Amer-I-can program is a stroke of genius wrapped in moral clarity. He did more for man than more than a few civil rights con artists ever did. Nevertheless some of the misanthropy that comes from his mouth is surprising, he can almost sound like a spoiled brat with a jealous streak. I dont like his hat either.


Jason Whitlock has the NERVE to call Ali a draft dodger?
answer: yes.

TrackDaddy wrote:Ali couldnt even purchase a home where he wanted to in the city he grew up in.
sad, but not sad enough to slander your country and aid the enemy. Especially when so many young men were already over there.

TrackDaddy wrote:And he was the heavyweight champion of the world. And the US wanted him to fight like he was free?

answer: yes. (nevertheless he paid the appropriate price for his protest and that was right.)

TrackDaddy wrote:Whitlock makes white folk happy with that nonsense.


not sure what part of the Whitlock quote you disagree with, you have read into it something about race and black vs white that no one will understand but you so far.

TrackDaddy wrote:Ali stood up for a cause at a time when people were being assasinated. He wouldve been SAFER in Vietnam.

hmm, interesting, in fact Ali did join and promote an organization that really did assassinate its members. He would have been safer in Vietnam than in the US speaking a word against that organization's leadership.


TrackDaddy wrote: Whitlock is a lunatic if he thinks we have to choose between the two. I just look like this. In reality, that's what he wants white people to do so he can sell papers. Some white people like it when prominent minorities are brought down...and vice versa.

Whitlock didnt say anything close to that, perhaps your race-centric world view is distorting what he is writing.

TrackDaddy wrote: Star Jones rose to fame when she, being black, stood on national TV and claimed that OJ was guilty...long before his trial. Did you know that's how she got famous?

you mean they wanted to put someone on television that actually could see what any unbiased person could see?.. I dont know know who she is by name or face but goodwill to her.
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Postby TrackDaddy » Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:16 am

Essentially Whitlock attempts to promote Brown by discrediting Ali.

It cannot be down.

Its "ONLY" :? unfortunate to you that Ali and other blacks were second class citizens under the US flag?

Their response to these conditions should be what you feel equitable when you didnt suffer that status? You think they should've valiently fought in Vietnam to be called niqqer and denied equal rights when they got home?

Do you know what it must've been like to live under Jim Crow laws?

Do you know that in some cities it was illegal for a black person to look a white person in the eyes? (the LAW was called eyeballing).

Do you know that in some cities black men werent allowed to wear a suit during the week unless they were a teacher or a preacher?

Do you know that black people in soe cities werent paid equal pay for equal work?

Do you know that black peoplehad to enter public establishments through the rear?

Do you know that in some cities black people couldnt own a new car?

Did you know that blacks werent allowed to get new school books...just hand me downs?

DO YOU KNOW THESE WERE LAWS!?!?!

Have you lost your mind?
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Postby paulthefan » Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:19 am

TrackDaddy wrote:Essentially Whitlock attempts to promote Brown by discrediting Ali.


I think what he wants to do is promote Brown AND discredit Ali whom he sees as having way too much credit. Most of us that have read some of the factual history of Ali are glad that the myth is being revisited and the truth of the toll he took on sport and sportsmanship is being appraised. Frazier's book is worth reading. Ali was a shameless self promotor whose self interests led him to visciously slander his adversaries and create fictions about his own history. Joe Frazier knew more about Jim Crow than Muhammad Ali ever did. Read the book.
Last edited by paulthefan on Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby TrackDaddy » Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:36 am

paulthefan wrote:
TrackDaddy wrote:Essentially Whitlock attempts to promote Brown by discrediting Ali.


I think what he wants to do is promote Brown AND discredit Ali, most of us that have read some of the factual history of Ali are glad that the myth is being revisited and the truth of the toll he took on sport and sportsmanship is being appraised. Frazier's book is worth reading. Ali was a shameless self promotor whose self interests led him to visciously slander his adversaries and create fictions about his own history. Joe Frazier knew more about Jim Crow than Muhammad Ali ever did. Read the book.


But like I said...to even pit Ali against Brown is foolish. Their accomplishments stand on their own.

Ali was a self promoter, yes. And it worked like a charm.

But he also lost his champioship and spent time in prison for standing up for a cause.

A lot of people felt that Frazier was an Uncle Tom and that his unwillingness, for example, to acknowledge Ali by his new name was disrespectful. But calling Frazier an ape was the wrong thing to do.

I've honestly felt sorry for Frazier and the way that all played out.

But when people with 1st class status call Ali a draft dodger they are misinformed. He could have went into the military and got a cushy job.He was the champ.

Instead, he made a statement that helped to change the course of history and black peoples status.

Ali wasnt a coward. He said stuff ON TV that many black folk wouldve been afraid to say in private. His life was always in danger. It wasnt until 1993 that a Klansman was ever convicted of killing a black person...some 100 years after the reign of terror began. They were always acquitted by white juries. Jokers were being assassinated, lynched, crosses being burned, etc. during the civil rights movement.

If your issue is with the Nation of Islam...then say that.

But Ali was fearless in a very trying time.

I suppose you take exception with Tommie Smith and John Carlos too? :?
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Postby paulthefan » Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:47 am

TrackDaddy wrote:But like I said...to even pit Ali against Brown is foolish. Their accomplishments stand on their own.

only you could read Whitlock and see Ali pitted against Brown, again try reading it slow.

Instead, he made a statement that helped to change the course of history and black peoples status.

not really, the heavy lifting was done by people of great stature and mostly long before Ali was Ali.

But Ali was fearless in a very trying time.

Ali was actually shameless in a very easy time.

I suppose you take exception with Tommie Smith and John Carlos too? :?

they raised their fists after all the heavy lifting was done and thereby unknowingly gave themselves credit for the real risks that great men took before them. Men that really did face brutal injustice with great character and greater courage. Not the college campus rentajustice kind. They thought they were doing the right thing. Tommie Smith is a great man.
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Postby ndamix » Fri Jul 03, 2009 11:49 am

This reminds me of the Book T. Washington/W.E.B. DuBois debates in the early 20th Century about which path (vocational education & economics versus conventional education & political involvement/empowerment) was more effective.

Washington Post reporter, Michael Wilborn, offers some insight into Tiger Wood's social activsim.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 03754.html

Not everyone has to take to the streets or hold press conferences to right societal wrongs.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:01 pm

Whitlock did compare Ali to Brown when it's totally unnecessary in order to give Brown his due. If Whitlock wants to slam Ali, he would be wiser to do it without bringing Brown into the conversation. I'll bet that if Brown reads his column, he'll dislike it as much as TD and I do. And anyone who agrees with paulthefan that Ali slandered his country and aided the enemy must really despise Martin Luther King and his Vietnam speeches.
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Postby bambam1729 » Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:23 pm

paulthefan wrote:
TrackDaddy wrote:And Jim Brown has a right to his opinion, but obviously Mike and Tiger dont share it.

Fact is, if they did share his opinion, they wouldnt be nearly as rich and successful outside of the playing field as they are.


Jason Whitlock (agrees with paulthefan on Ali) had it right:
"Jim Brown is the most important athlete in American history. Everything we foolishly credit Muhammad Ali for standing for Jim Brown actually did and does. The reverence we shower on the self-serving, draft-dodging, Joe Frazier-is-a-monkey Muhammad Ali more appropriately belongs at Jim Brown's feet."


Jim Brown is a great man, his Amer-I-can program is a stroke of genius wrapped in moral clarity. He did more for man than more than a few civil rights con artists ever did. Nevertheless some of the misanthropy that comes from his mouth is surprising, he can almost sound like a spoiled brat with a jealous streak. I dont like his hat either.


Always thought Jason Whitlock was a really smart guy on The Sports Reporters before he got canned because he couldn't get along with Mike Lupica, for which I like him even more.

Probably right about Brown. My take on Jim Brown is this - aside from the topic of this thread, I consider him the greatest American athlete of all time. Any sport, any time, any era. Even above Jim Thorpe - take that, Texas.
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Postby TrackDaddy » Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:26 pm

paulthefan wrote:
Instead, he made a statement that helped to change the course of history and black peoples status.

not really, the heavy lifting was done by people of great stature and mostly long before Ali was Ali.

But Ali was fearless in a very trying time.

Ali was actually shameless in a very easy time.

I suppose you take exception with Tommie Smith and John Carlos too? :?

they raised their fists after all the heavy lifting was done and thereby unknowingly gave themselves credit for the real risks that great men took before them. Men that really did face brutal injustice with great character and greater courage. Not the college campus rentajustice kind. They thought they were doing the right thing. Tommie Smith is a great man.


They cant help when they were born. :roll:

All 4 men did courageous things during their respective eras to bring attention to social causes.

You were apparently okay with things the way they were. Reminds me a coworker I use to have who said MLK was nothing but a troublemaker. :roll:
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Postby ndamix » Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:05 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:Whitlock did compare Ali to Brown when it's totally unnecessary in order to give Brown his due. If Whitlock wants to slam Ali, he would be wiser to do it without bringing Brown into the conversation. I'll bet that if Brown reads his column, he'll dislike it as much as TD and I do. And anyone who agrees with paulthefan that Ali slandered his country and aided the enemy must really despise Martin Luther King and his Vietnam speeches.
Which folks tend to ignore since there's a tendancy to focus on MLK as a dreamer.
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Postby mrbowie » Sat Jul 04, 2009 6:33 pm

Jim Brown is one of the most admirable men of the era and deserves a lot of credit for his enterprising work on behalf of African Americans. He is a very classy individual and the epitome of a guy that cares enough to give back. I have met him. I respect him. Yes, it would have been nice if he hadn't tossed the chick off the balcony. But I try not to hold that against him.
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Postby mrbowie » Sat Jul 04, 2009 6:34 pm

By the way, if somebody can tell me what makes either Tiger Woods or Barack Obama black, I'd love to be convinced. Neither is black.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Jul 04, 2009 7:58 pm

mrbowie wrote:By the way, if somebody can tell me what makes either Tiger Woods or Barack Obama black, I'd love to be convinced. Neither is black.

If you were born and raised in the U.S., and you're over 35 years old, I'm going to go out on the limb and say that you're asking a rhetorical question.
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Postby ndamix » Sat Jul 04, 2009 10:05 pm

mrbowie wrote:By the way, if somebody can tell me what makes either Tiger Woods or Barack Obama black, I'd love to be convinced. Neither is black.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and say you've obviously never read accounts about some of the racial incidents either of these men encountered during their childhood much less anything they might have encountered as adults.
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Postby sprintblox » Sun Jul 05, 2009 3:46 pm

mrbowie wrote:By the way, if somebody can tell me what makes either Tiger Woods or Barack Obama black, I'd love to be convinced. Neither is black.

Society makes them black. Race is a social classification, not a biological one. Yes, there are biological underpinnings, but there is no black gene or white gene. And if society treats a person as black or white then that's what they are regardless of what their parents or other ancestors look like.
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