Fourth of July


Normally open July 4th only---the one day a year when partisan politics, religion, etc. are acceptable topics on this Board (within reason). The forum is now closed.

Fourth of July

Postby Pego » Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:34 pm

This came in e-mail today. Hopefully, it is not considered a copyright material, as I think, it is worthwhile and applicable to a lot wider audience than the Americans.



Have you ever wondered what happened to the 56 men
who signed the Declaration of Independence?

Five signers were captured by the British as traitors,
and tortured before they died.

Twelve had their homes ransacked and burned.
Two lost their sons serving in the Revolutionary Army;
another had two sons captured.

Nine of the 56 fought and died from wounds or
hardships of the Revolutionary War.

They signed and they pledged their lives, their fortunes,
and their sacred honor.

What kind of men were they?

Twenty-four were lawyers and jurists.
Eleven were merchants,
nine were farmers and large plantation owners;
men of means, well educated,
but they signed the Declaration of Independence
knowing full well that the penalty would be death if
they were captured.
Carter Braxton of Virginia, a wealthy planter and
trader, saw his ships swept from the seas by the
British Navy. He sold his home and properties to
pay his debts, and died in rags.

Thomas McKeam was so hounded by the British
that he was forced to move his family almost constantly.
He served in the Congress without pay, and his family
was kept in hiding. His possessions were taken from him,
and poverty was his reward.

Vandals or soldiers looted the properties of Dillery, Hall, Clymer,
Walton, Gwinnett, Heyward, Ruttledge, and Middleton.

At the battle of Yorktown, Thomas Nelson, Jr., noted that
the British General Cornwallis had taken over the Nelson
home for his headquarters. He quietly urged General
George Washington to open fire. The home was destroyed,
and Nelson died bankrupt.

Francis Lewis had his home and properties destroyed.
The enemy jailed his wife, and she died within a few months.

John Hart was driven from his wife's bedside as she was dying.
Their 13 children fled for their lives. His fields and his gristmill
were laid to waste. For more than a year he lived in forests
and caves, returning home to find his wife dead and his
children vanished.
So, take a few minutes while enjoying your 4th of July holiday and
silently thank these patriots. It's not much to ask for the price they paid.

Remember: freedom is never free!

I hope you will show your support by sending this to as many
people as you can, please. It's time we get the word out that patriotism
is NOT a sin, and the Fourth of July has more to it than beer,
picnics, and baseball games.
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Postby tandfman » Fri Jun 19, 2009 2:48 pm

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Postby Marlow » Fri Jun 19, 2009 3:52 pm

tandfman wrote:http://www.snopes.com/history/american/pricepaid.asp

This one time where Snopes fails. If you read all the way through, you'll see a lot of phrases where it says, 'this is partially true, but'. IF only half is true, it is STILL an astonishing story. These men knew they were committing high treason to the country they lived under - Great Britain. There was zero certainty that the colonies would win the war. Had the British not simply given up, which is essentially what they did, MOST of the signers would have lost a great deal.

I'm with pego on this. The founding fathers WERE heroes. Sure, much of their motivation was personally financial, but much were also simple 'rights of man' issues.
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Postby bad hammy » Fri Jun 19, 2009 4:09 pm

Marlow wrote:
tandfman wrote:http://www.snopes.com/history/american/pricepaid.asp

This one time where Snopes fails. If you read all the way through, you'll see a lot of phrases where it says, 'this is partially true, but'. IF only half is true, it is STILL an astonishing story.

But the facts are that parts of it are flat out lies and others ignore inconvenient facts that would otherwise make them sound less heroic. No doubt that they all acted heroically in signing the DOI and of course we all owe them a huge debt of gratitude, but whoever wrote this does them all a disservice.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:00 pm

It's ironic that this thread would be started on June 19th. I guess when it comes to July 4th, it's all a matter of perspective.
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Postby TrackDaddy » Fri Jun 19, 2009 6:47 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:It's ironic that this thread would be started on June 19th. I guess when it comes to July 4th, it's all a matter of perspective.


I don't think its irony at all.

http://mb.trackandfieldnews.com/discuss ... hp?t=35973

The 4th of July isnt for another two weeks.
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Postby gh » Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:27 am

bad hammy wrote:
Marlow wrote:
tandfman wrote:http://www.snopes.com/history/american/pricepaid.asp

This one time where Snopes fails. If you read all the way through, you'll see a lot of phrases where it says, 'this is partially true, but'. IF only half is true, it is STILL an astonishing story.

But the facts are that parts of it are flat out lies and others ignore inconvenient facts that would otherwise make them sound less heroic. No doubt that they all acted heroically in signing the DOI and of course we all owe them a huge debt of gratitude, but whoever wrote this does them all a disservice.


The truth is kinda like being pregnant: you is or you ain't.
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Postby Marlow » Thu Jul 02, 2009 8:30 am

gh wrote:The truth is kinda like being pregnant: you is or you ain't.

Truth is not only relative, it's many-layered like an onion. And yes, it often makes you cry.
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Postby marknhj » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:28 am

I'm curious how many are going to spare a few moments from their BBQ's, fireworks, beer drinking and "USA USA USA..." celebrations on July 4th, and consider the last two hundred years plus of Native American history :D
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Postby Marlow » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:31 am

marknhj wrote:consider the last two hundred years plus of Native American history :D

Good point. I do, very much, think about all the people who sacrificed their lives to allow us to celebrate this holiday.
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Postby marknhj » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:57 am

Marlow wrote:
marknhj wrote:consider the last two hundred years plus of Native American history :D

Good point. I do, very much, think about all the people who sacrificed their lives to allow us to celebrate this holiday.


"Sacrificed" is a very odd and convenient word to use in this context...
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Postby Marlow » Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:24 am

marknhj wrote:
Marlow wrote:
marknhj wrote:consider the last two hundred years plus of Native American history :D

Good point. I do, very much, think about all the people who sacrificed their lives to allow us to celebrate this holiday.

"Sacrificed" is a very odd and convenient word to use in this context...

I see your point, but in this context it is used quite often, and appropriately so (IMO). (Not that the NAs didn't 'sacrifice' more).
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Postby dal4018 » Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:33 am

marknhj wrote:I'm curious how many are going to spare a few moments from their BBQ's, fireworks, beer drinking and "USA USA USA..." celebrations on July 4th, and consider the last two hundred years plus of Native American history :D
I can tell you sir in one word NONE.
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Postby dal4018 » Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:35 am

Benjamin Franklin had a son that was a supporter of Britain and he did all he could to help the folks who raise the Union Jack as a flag.
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Postby lonewolf » Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:41 am

marknhj wrote:I'm curious how many are going to spare a few moments from their BBQ's, fireworks, beer drinking and "USA USA USA..." celebrations on July 4th, and consider the last two hundred years plus of Native American history :D


I think most responders have overlooked the word "Native" in this query.
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Postby dal4018 » Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:45 am

lonewolf wrote:
marknhj wrote:I'm curious how many are going to spare a few moments from their BBQ's, fireworks, beer drinking and "USA USA USA..." celebrations on July 4th, and consider the last two hundred years plus of Native American history :D


I think most responders have overlooked the word "Native" in this query.
Its a shame that they have lonewolf these ppl were over here living as civilized humans before these civilized barbarians(europeans) got their claws into this country.
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Postby TrackDaddy » Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:05 pm

marknhj wrote:I'm curious how many are going to spare a few moments from their BBQ's, fireworks, beer drinking and "USA USA USA..." celebrations on July 4th, and consider the last two hundred years plus of Native American history :D


Let me help.

The Declaration of Independence calls Native Americans savages.

If you havent ever read it, you should. Its a good read.

I wonder if indians are popping fireworks this weekend?

And for the last 100+ years most have spent their lives on reservations fighting alcoholism and gambling.

Still, I've met some truly patriotic indians.

Non propagandist history cuts to the bone.
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Postby guru » Thu Jul 02, 2009 4:51 pm

dal4018 wrote:
lonewolf wrote:
marknhj wrote:I'm curious how many are going to spare a few moments from their BBQ's, fireworks, beer drinking and "USA USA USA..." celebrations on July 4th, and consider the last two hundred years plus of Native American history :D


I think most responders have overlooked the word "Native" in this query.
Its a shame that they have lonewolf these ppl were over here living as civilized humans before these civilized barbarians(europeans) got their claws into this country.



Just to be clear -

Whether you are a Creationist or Evolutionist regarding human origins, one thing is consistent - there is no such thing as a NATIVE American.

As for what the Europeans did to the folks who made it here before them, keep in mind homo sapiens were pushing each other around long before 1492, and they'll be doing it long after we're dust.
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Postby Marlow » Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:19 pm

guru wrote:Just to be clear -
Whether you are a Creationist or Evolutionist regarding human origins, one thing is consistent - there is no such thing as a NATIVE American.
As for what the Europeans did to the folks who made it here before them, keep in mind homo sapiens were pushing each other around long before 1492, and they'll be doing it long after we're dust.

True, but what the United States of America, in the 1800s (and even 1900s), did to the American Indian tribes was, any way you spin it, disgraceful. Of course there's that small matter of some Americans OWNING other Americans through the mid-1800s.

I see that Congress is once again considering an Apology for Slavery . . .
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Postby TrackDaddy » Thu Jul 02, 2009 5:45 pm

guru wrote:
dal4018 wrote:
lonewolf wrote:
marknhj wrote:I'm curious how many are going to spare a few moments from their BBQ's, fireworks, beer drinking and "USA USA USA..." celebrations on July 4th, and consider the last two hundred years plus of Native American history :D


I think most responders have overlooked the word "Native" in this query.
Its a shame that they have lonewolf these ppl were over here living as civilized humans before these civilized barbarians(europeans) got their claws into this country.



Just to be clear -

Whether you are a Creationist or Evolutionist regarding human origins, one thing is consistent - there is no such thing as a NATIVE American.


Native American means being here pre euro invasion.

First.
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Postby Daisy » Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:43 am

Marlow wrote:
guru wrote:keep in mind homo sapiens were pushing each other around long before 1492, and they'll be doing it long after we're dust.

True, but what the United States of America, in the 1800s (and even 1900s), did to the American Indian tribes was, any way you spin it, disgraceful..

I think the key is that considering the emphasis on freedom from the founding fathers the hypocrisy was huge with regard to slaves and indigenous people.

One can only assume that they did not regard them as human.

TrackDaddy wrote:Native American means being here pre euro invasion.

Native is actually a biological term. The european settlers would be invasive using the same terminology.
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Postby Marlow » Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:51 am

Daisy wrote:Native is actually a biological term. The european settlers would be invasive using the same terminology.

Does that make the Amerinds invasive when they first crossed the Bering landbridge? Or is everybody EXCEPT the Kenyans invasive, and they are the only true natives? That would make their current running status especially just! :D
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Postby Daisy » Fri Jul 03, 2009 8:55 am

Marlow wrote:Does that make the Amerinds invasive when they first crossed the Bering landbridge?

Yes, the terminology is relative. Biological terms are often ambiguous in that way, so you often have to state exactly what you mean. Another classic one is race. There is no fixed definition for this term which explains all the arguments.
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Postby gh » Fri Jul 03, 2009 9:18 am

Marlow wrote:
tandfman wrote:http://www.snopes.com/history/american/pricepaid.asp

This one time where Snopes fails. If you read all the way through, you'll see a lot of phrases where it says, 'this is partially true, but'. IF only half is true, it is STILL an astonishing story. These men knew they were committing high treason to the country they lived under - Great Britain. There was zero certainty that the colonies would win the war. Had the British not simply given up, which is essentially what they did, MOST of the signers would have lost a great deal.

I'm with pego on this. The founding fathers WERE heroes. Sure, much of their motivation was personally financial, but much were also simple 'rights of man' issues.


Actually, in reading that document, now I know where Mel Gibson got his script for The Patriot.
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Postby TrackDaddy » Fri Jul 03, 2009 10:57 am

Daisy wrote:Native is actually a biological term. The european settlers would be invasive using the same terminology.


Daisy

I know what the term native means technically.

But I also know what its come to mean in this context.
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Postby Daisy » Fri Jul 03, 2009 12:53 pm

TrackDaddy wrote:But I also know what its come to mean in this context.

Can you expand? I'm not sure I understand this.
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Postby lonewolf » Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:07 pm

I am weighing in on this thread only to place my annual objection to Free Speach Day/Week. In my experience, it frequently undoes 51 weeks of good-will through the sometimes contentious but usually good-natured, guarded repartee on non-political/religious/social topics between those of differing political/religious/social persuasions. Comments almost invariably become personal, derisive and derogatory. There are already too many gratuitious insulting comments posted throughout the year without annual piling on..
That said:
I think everyone knows that "Native American" has become an euphemism for American Indian, although, being one, I do not see the need for an alternative name.
Nor do I understand why Negroes reject that more accurately descriptive term for their race in favor of "blacks", "colored" "African-Americans" (although they may have never been near Africa) or whatever term is in vogue. I can only conject that it is because the word Negro has been bastardized into the "N" word which, whether intended or not, is perceived as demeaning.
By that token, why do "whites" not object to and in fact may revel in being called "cracker", "redneck", "hill-billy" or similar terms, which are usually not intended in a complimentary vein?
Marlow, Daisy, guru and others are correct in their observation that there are no truly "native" Americans; even though the descendants of those ancients who crossed he Bering land bridge during the most recent Ice Age are commonly referred to as Native Americans. In fact, there is accepted evidence that humans inhabited both North and South American long before the last Ice Age.
The oldest human/humanoid bones found to date, over 2 million years old, were found in northeast Africa. Presumably, all present humans of all races and intervening species descended from that locale. It would seem the several "races",with their distinctive physical differences, who, unlike most animals can be inter-bred, evolved due to isolation and environmental adaptation. Indeed, Kenyans may be the only "native' people in the world.
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Postby dal4018 » Fri Jul 03, 2009 2:50 pm

TrackDaddy wrote:
guru wrote:
dal4018 wrote:
lonewolf wrote:
marknhj wrote:I'm curious how many are going to spare a few moments from their BBQ's, fireworks, beer drinking and "USA USA USA..." celebrations on July 4th, and consider the last two hundred years plus of Native American history :D


I think most responders have overlooked the word "Native" in this query.
Its a shame that they have lonewolf these ppl were over here living as civilized humans before these civilized barbarians(europeans) got their claws into this country.



Just to be clear -

Whether you are a Creationist or Evolutionist regarding human origins, one thing is consistent - there is no such thing as a NATIVE American.


Native American means being here pre euro invasion.

First.
Thank you Trackdaddy
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Postby TrackDaddy » Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:18 am

Daisy wrote:
TrackDaddy wrote:But I also know what its come to mean in this context.

Can you expand? I'm not sure I understand this.


Native American has come to mean the American Indian.

That's almost universally understood.

Getting techinical doesn't change that.
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Postby AthleticsInBritain » Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:53 am

Well I was going to wish everyone a happy 4th July until I read this thread!

I guess this is instructive on how history becomes mythology.
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Postby Daisy » Sat Jul 04, 2009 5:14 am

TrackDaddy wrote:Getting techinical doesn't change that.

??? I was confirming your point ???
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Postby TrackDaddy » Sat Jul 04, 2009 7:22 am

My bad, Daisy. :oops:

Did I misunderstand your question?
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Postby Daisy » Sat Jul 04, 2009 7:54 am

TrackDaddy wrote:My bad, Daisy. :oops:

Did I misunderstand your question?


No need for :oops: This whole thread is a bit confusing.
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Postby Daisy » Sat Jul 04, 2009 7:55 am

TrackDaddy wrote:My bad, Daisy. :oops:

Did I misunderstand your question?


No need for :oops: This whole thread is a bit confusing.
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Postby bman » Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:14 am

guru wrote:
dal4018 wrote:
lonewolf wrote:
marknhj wrote:I'm curious how many are going to spare a few moments from their BBQ's, fireworks, beer drinking and "USA USA USA..." celebrations on July 4th, and consider the last two hundred years plus of Native American history :D


I think most responders have overlooked the word "Native" in this query.
Its a shame that they have lonewolf these ppl were over here living as civilized humans before these civilized barbarians(europeans) got their claws into this country.



Just to be clear -

Whether you are a Creationist or Evolutionist regarding human origins, one thing is consistent - there is no such thing as a NATIVE American.

As for what the Europeans did to the folks who made it here before them, keep in mind homo sapiens were pushing each other around long before 1492, and they'll be doing it long after we're dust.


I love how when discussing the 'native' American all of a sudden normal rules don't apply. All of a sudden ethnicity doesn't really exist and genocide is justified. To say that there was not violations of human rights just because other people were doing it is an insult to history. It is correct not to judge people based on standards of our time that were not relevant then, but this does not mean we should not be honest about what happened.
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