the use of first names for athletes [split]


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Postby tandfman » Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:03 am

I hate to play PC cop, but I really must say that I don't think it's right to refer of these athletes by their first name. I haven't seen any discussions of Oregonians Galen, Matthew, and Andrew. We're not talking about Jason, Ronnie, and Booker on the hurdles thread. Why Jessica and Francena? It seems like old-fashioned sexism to me.
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Postby TrackDaddy » Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:05 am

tandfman wrote:I hate to play PC cop, but I really must say that I don't think it's right to refer of these athletes by their first name. I haven't seen any discussions of Oregonians Galen, Matthew, and Andrew. We're not talking about Jason, Ronnie, and Booker on the hurdles thread. Why Jessica and Francena? It seems like old-fashioned sexism to me.


:? and :? .

Oh yeah...

:?
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Postby Taliban » Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:08 am

tandfman wrote:I hate to play PC cop, but I really must say that I don't think it's right to refer of these athletes by their first name. I haven't seen any discussions of Oregonians Galen, Matthew, and Andrew. We're not talking about Jason, Ronnie, and Booker on the hurdles thread. Why Jessica and Francena? It seems like old-fashioned sexism to me.



????????

I think Francena wins and is under 50.75. She ran a low key 23.27 into a -2.7w so the speed is definitely there.
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Postby TrackDaddy » Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:32 am

Taliban wrote:
tandfman wrote:I hate to play PC cop, but I really must say that I don't think it's right to refer of these athletes by their first name. I haven't seen any discussions of Oregonians Galen, Matthew, and Andrew. We're not talking about Jason, Ronnie, and Booker on the hurdles thread. Why Jessica and Francena? It seems like old-fashioned sexism to me.



????????

I think Francena wins and is under 50.75. She ran a low key 23.27 into a -2.7w so the speed is definitely there.


Sexist!

:lol:

Don't we call Tyson, Tyson, and not Gay?

Well, er, maybe there's a reason for that one. :oops: :D
Last edited by TrackDaddy on Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby guruof track » Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:33 am

tandfman wrote:I hate to play PC cop, but I really must say that I don't think it's right to refer of these athletes by their first name. I haven't seen any discussions of Oregonians Galen, Matthew, and Andrew. We're not talking about Jason, Ronnie, and Booker on the hurdles thread. Why Jessica and Francena? It seems like old-fashioned sexism to me.


Sorry, I meant Beard and McCorory. :roll:

Let me know if we should use prefix's for those names of 'Ronnie or Jason or Xavier, ect' as well.
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Postby TrackDaddy » Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:39 am

guruof track wrote:
tandfman wrote:I hate to play PC cop, but I really must say that I don't think it's right to refer of these athletes by their first name. I haven't seen any discussions of Oregonians Galen, Matthew, and Andrew. We're not talking about Jason, Ronnie, and Booker on the hurdles thread. Why Jessica and Francena? It seems like old-fashioned sexism to me.


Sorry, I meant Beard and McCorory. :roll:

Let me know if we should use prefix's for those names of 'Ronnie or Jason or Xavier, ect' as well.


:lol:
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Postby dal4018 » Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:58 am

TrackDaddy wrote:
guruof track wrote:
tandfman wrote:I hate to play PC cop, but I really must say that I don't think it's right to refer of these athletes by their first name. I haven't seen any discussions of Oregonians Galen, Matthew, and Andrew. We're not talking about Jason, Ronnie, and Booker on the hurdles thread. Why Jessica and Francena? It seems like old-fashioned sexism to me.


Sorry, I meant Beard and McCorory. :roll:

Let me know if we should use prefix's for those names of 'Ronnie or Jason or Xavier, ect' as well.


:lol:
My apoloiges to all next time I will use their full names.
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Postby Taliban » Wed Jun 03, 2009 10:59 am

TrackDaddy wrote:
Taliban wrote:
tandfman wrote:I hate to play PC cop, but I really must say that I don't think it's right to refer of these athletes by their first name. I haven't seen any discussions of Oregonians Galen, Matthew, and Andrew. We're not talking about Jason, Ronnie, and Booker on the hurdles thread. Why Jessica and Francena? It seems like old-fashioned sexism to me.



????????

I think Francena wins and is under 50.75. She ran a low key 23.27 into a -2.7w so the speed is definitely there.


Sexist!

:lol:

Don't we call Tyson, Tyson, and not Gay?

Well, er, maybe there's a reason for that one. :oops: :D


LMAO :lol:
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Postby gh » Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:12 am

It definitely shows disrespect to call women by first name if you wouldn't think of doing it for a guy. It's a practice we heartily discourage.

Having said that, once you reach icon status it takes on a different shading. Obviously when speaking historically everybody knows who Mary was. (besides, Mary easier than trying to remember her last name du jour :-) )
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Postby bad hammy » Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:18 am

gh wrote:Obviously when speaking historically everybody knows who Mary was. (besides, Mary easier than trying to remember her last name du jour :-) )

Yeah, when Mary Danner became Mary Wineberg I was completely confused . . .

What about Marion and Regina? Maybe we should just use the first names on the women PED users!
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Postby TrackDaddy » Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:25 am

gh wrote:It definitely shows disrespect to call women by first name if you wouldn't think of doing it for a guy. It's a practice we heartily discourage.

Having said that, once you reach icon status it takes on a different shading. Obviously when speaking historically everybody knows who Mary was. (besides, Mary easier than trying to remember her last name du jour :-) )


When we speak of the NCAA womens 400m a fan knows who Jessica and Francena are because of their collegiate "icon status." They are NCAA champions and all americans.

If the names arent distinctive or unique no one would do it anyway. I mean if they were both named Jane it may be pointless as the intent is to let people know who you're referring to, not to be disrepectful.

Why would someone say James, when James is so common?

If you have two NCAA stars, for example, in a respective event regardess of gender and they're named Wallace and Jeremy for example then those are the names that may be used. So it has been done for males also -at least to the best of my recollection.
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Postby Dutra » Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:29 am

gh wrote:It definitely shows disrespect to call women by first name if you wouldn't think of doing it for a guy. It's a practice we heartily discourage.



While not agreeing with either, I notice this trend both by women and for women.

Women the fans seem to want familiarity and thus I notice more woman referring to people of all venues of pop culture and sports by their first name much more than men do.

By the same token, it does seem that more women athletes are referred to by men and women alike by their first names.
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Postby guruof track » Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:30 am

Most people refer to Merritt as Lashawn and Carter as X and Gay as Tyson............is that disrespecful to

I mean it seems a bit ridiculous to me
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Postby nevetsllim » Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:41 am

Oh not this crap again :roll: I post on tennis forums too and everyone posts Roger, Rafa, Novak as well as Venus, Serena, Maria etc. See, no double standards.

I always see people post Haile, Kenny, Tyson, LaShawn, Usain on here - simply because you can't confuse them with other athletes, unlike 'Paul', 'Matthew', 'Steve', yada yada yada...
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Postby guruof track » Wed Jun 03, 2009 11:46 am

nevetsllim wrote:Oh not this crap again :roll: I post on tennis forums too and everyone posts Roger, Rafa, Novak as well as Venus, Serena, Maria etc. See, no double standards.

I always see people post Haile, Kenny, Tyson, LaShawn, Usain on here - simply because you can't confuse them with other athletes, unlike 'Paul', 'Matthew', 'Steve', yada yada yada...


No, we are just closet sexist.
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Postby LopenUupunut » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:01 pm

One could just as easily argue that, for a male, objecting to something like this is disrespectful, the implication being we know what they want to be called better than they themselves.

The whole thing's entirely erratic, within both genders. To take a random example not even intended to be good, next to nobody here refers to gh by his surname, while the opposite (with many a typo) applies to "Twig Fence" Krzyszkowiak.
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Postby mcgato » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:06 pm

gh wrote:(besides, Mary easier than trying to remember her last name du jour :-) )

I've always thought that was the biggest part of the reason that this is so common. For instance, it went:
Suzy Favor
Suzy Hamilton
Suzy Favor Hamilton
and if she had divorced probably would have gone back to Suzy Favor

Bottom line is that men's last names rarely change, while women's last names often change. Sometimes multiple times.

I was also baffled when Mary Wineberg first showed up in the results, as well as Katie Waits. One of the US 400 hurdlers too, but I'm drawing a blank on that one.
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Postby lonewolf » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:29 pm

Purely personal preference: When officiating, I never address any athlete of any age or gender directly by their first name, the exception being athletes with difficult foreign names who ask me to use the more pronounceable of their names.
That said, I don't see it as inappropriate to use first names, initials, nick-names or whatever in a forum such as this, as long as we know which athlete is being referred to.
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Postby guruof track » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:29 pm

mcgato wrote:
gh wrote:(besides, Mary easier than trying to remember her last name du jour :-) )

I've always thought that was the biggest part of the reason that this is so common. For instance, it went:
Suzy Favor
Suzy Hamilton
Suzy Favor Hamilton
and if she had divorced probably would have gone back to Suzy Favor

Bottom line is that men's last names rarely change, while women's last names often change. Sometimes multiple times.

I was also baffled when Mary Wineberg first showed up in the results, as well as Katie Waits. One of the US 400 hurdlers too, but I'm drawing a blank on that one.


Sheena Tosta formerly Sheena Johnson
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Postby guruof track » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:31 pm

Being politically correct has ruined America. This is the type of stuff we adhere to when we try to accomplish being PC.
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Postby gh » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:41 pm

lonewolf wrote:Purely personal preference: When officiating, I never address any athlete of any age or gender directly by their first name, the exception being athletes with difficult foreign names who ask me to use the more pronounceable of their names.
That said, I don't see it as inappropriate to use first names, initials, nick-names or whatever in a forum such as this, as long as we know which athlete is being referred to.


At the national championships about a decade ago I was working the infield and they had the women's discus. The head official called every woman by first name. Immediately following was the men's discus and the same official called every man by last name.

Opposing that is not being PC.

It's being aware of subtle sexism (women as little girls not to be taken seriously) and doing something about it. Hence, it remains the stance of this board's management that using a double standard is offensive and makes management unhappy.
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Postby Daisy » Wed Jun 03, 2009 12:52 pm

nevetsllim wrote:I post on tennis forums too and everyone posts Roger, Rafa, Novak as well as Venus, Serena, Maria etc. See, no double standards.

Well there is no double standard if you use first names for everyone. The whole point of the first post in this thread is that some people use first names for women but last names for men. In that scenario it could easily be considered a double standard.
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Postby Marlow » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:03 pm

We already did this thread and I, for one, was taken to task for calling Marion, Marion! :roll: My point has ALWAYS been, you call them by their most 'natural' name, thus we have Marion and Asafa, but Bolt and Gay (much better than Tyson, which is the name of a meet at Arkansas).

here's your primer on sprinters, you can infer others from it:

first names: Asafa, Marion, X, Mo, Carl, Leroy, Jesse, Frankie, Ato

last names: Dix, Spearmon, Bolt (altho Usain is distinctive, Bolt is more evocative), Padgett, Patton (or Doc), Marsh, Montgomery, Drummond
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Postby imaginative » Wed Jun 03, 2009 1:45 pm

There may well be people out there who use inconsistent standards for
sexist reasons (be they conscious about it or not); however, in modern society
(and IMO) it does more harm than good to obsess about equal treatment in the
last detail. Further, remember the saying about assuming: An inconsistent use
of first and last names for men and women need not be a sign of sexism. Other
possible explanations include male a official feeling a personal
liking/attraction to the female athletes, which makes him unconsciously use
their first name.

I state for the record that there are many sexist _women_ out there too; quite
possibly more than sexist men. (Not that this is an excuse...)
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Postby AS » Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:12 pm

guruof track wrote:Being politically correct has ruined America.


Hmmm, being conscious of the impact of one's behaviours and assumptions on the manner in which others are perceived and treated...

That sounds like a recipe for distaster :roll:

Nowhere near the top of the list of things that have "ruined America"...

...unless the "golden age" of America for you is back when them pesky blacks, women and homos know their place, and WASP men could stride through the land free as a bird saying anything they damn well pleased... :oops:
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Postby guruof track » Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:26 pm

AS wrote:
guruof track wrote:Being politically correct has ruined America.


Hmmm, being conscious of the impact of one's behaviours and assumptions on the manner in which others are perceived and treated...

That sounds like a recipe for distaster :roll:

Nowhere near the top of the list of things that have "ruined America"...

...unless the "golden age" of America for you is back when them pesky blacks, women and homos know their place, and WASP men could stride through the land free as a bird saying anything they damn well pleased... :oops:


Thats your opinion, but when being political correct infringes upon peoples first amendment rights (no matter how offense it may be), then yes your ruining America.

I personally don't use offensive words that denigrate a subset of people, but thats my personal choice. But when people are condemn for using words that are purposely NOT meant to cause harm (calling someone by their first name), thats past petty.

You don't have to agree, regular folk can't even speak their mind without worry about offending someone. People need to lighten up, everything is no meant as a slight or derogatory term. Live and let live.
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Postby TrakFan » Wed Jun 03, 2009 2:55 pm

Its always amusing to hear guys debating an issue about how a woman may or may not be offended concerning how they're addressed. I'd be curious about what women thought concerning the topic. Although I could be wrong, many female athletes could care less about whether or not they are referred to in a similar way as they're male counterpart. The big concern is that they're provided similar opportunities to participate and receive equal compensation...Wimbledon finally got the message in 2007.

While working in military and DoD contractor environments, I would always get a crazy look from female colleagues if I referred to them by their last names. It was seen as too impersonal if I'd know them for any amount of time. As for the guys, they could care less.
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Postby AS » Wed Jun 03, 2009 3:57 pm

guruof track wrote:Thats your opinion, but when being political correct infringes upon peoples first amendment rights (no matter how offense it may be), then yes your ruining America.

I personally don't use offensive words that denigrate a subset of people, but thats my personal choice. But when people are condemn for using words that are purposely NOT meant to cause harm (calling someone by their first name), thats past petty.

You don't have to agree, regular folk can't even speak their mind without worry about offending someone. People need to lighten up, everything is no meant as a slight or derogatory term. Live and let live.


What I am always astounded by is folks' perception that this is about "condemnation". It's actually just about awareness - i.e. it might be a bit dodgy to have different methods of talking about different folks (rather than "you must not...").

In the same way that calling certain folks "boy" rather than their name has (hopefully) faded away, so too it might be that this tendency to differentiate here reflects some old, unsavoury attitudes...

But maybe not.

PC at its best is about awareness... at its worst it is no better than the old unexamined attitudes...

The debate is healthy... and screaming out for some female input!!
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Postby guruof track » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:26 pm

Calling an adult male a 'boy' is inappropriate, calling a female by her first name is ok in my book.

The terms of this debate are almost set on a false premise. The notion that I refer to all women by their first names and all men by their last name, is hogwash. I refer to Merritt, by Lashawn........is that sexist? I refer to Carter, by X is that sexist? I refer to Lashinda, by Demus does that now make me less sexist?? I refer to Amy, by Acuff??

You see how ridiculous this is? Nothing in this thread was inappropriate.........the sexism claim was outlandish and frivilous. People need to be 'aware' of what they are say, but being PC isn't necessarily being aware, thats basically saying stuff because you 'think' its the approapriate thing to say.

If I would say it behind closed doors, I'd probably say it in a crowded room as well. I don't think that is unreasonable.
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Postby AS » Wed Jun 03, 2009 4:41 pm

guruof track wrote:The notion that I refer to all women by their first names and all men by their last name, is hogwash...


I'm not sufficiently au fait with your posting style to comment on that. But there are a considerable number of regular posters here who demark along gender lines on this issue.

Have a look at any of the Brit-dominated threads to see this in action: lots of "Nicola", "Stephanie", "Tasha", "Lee" etc.

I have whinged about it in the past as a practice that is (possibly) sexist, but if nothing else exclusionary (the basis of some of the criticism here too) for those of us who can't keep track of the insular world of a given thread.

Behaviours have improved considerably. The most recent Britsh Results thread is almost squeaky clean, and thus much easier to read...

Hence, why folks raise concerns...
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Postby Brian » Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:11 pm

gh wrote:It definitely shows disrespect to call women by first name if you wouldn't think of doing it for a guy. It's a practice we heartily discourage.



Speaking solely for myself on this issue, I've always believed it was a little disrespectful to call anyone you don't personally know by (only) their first name. Implies a buddy "insider-ness" that simply isn't true. So I try not to do it.

Exceptions being when needed to differentiate between two with the same last name; i.e., brothers, etc., and, of course, when discussing Cher or Madonna--not that anyone would want to do so or ever should for that matter. :]


Having said that, I have more than once referred to the star of "24" only as "Kiefer" in those threads (and always had a twinge in my stomach during those times). But I did so because I honestly cannot ever seem to remember if his last name is "Southerland" or "Southerlin" and I didn't want the point of my post lost to members of the typo police. [And I never remembered to look it up before I posted. Frankly, it never seemed that important.]


Maybe this example ties into some points being made here.

Or not. Especially coming from someone who posts with only his first name. :] :]
Last edited by Brian on Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Speedfirst » Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:14 pm

I really can't believe you guys are debating this subject, about what is stated on a message board :shock:

Don't sweat the small stuff, it's all small stuff...Wow
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Postby Brian » Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:17 pm

Speedfirst wrote:I really can't believe you guys are debating this subject, about what is stated on a message board :shock:

Don't sweat the small stuff, it's all small stuff...Wow



Hmmm...good point in that a message board isn't the same as a public address system (wherein I agree with gh that it is absolutely wrong).
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Postby mojo » Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:24 pm

I definitely think an announcer should call all the athletes by their last names. It does seem sexist to call the women (and don't EVER call them girls unless they are under 18 :x ) by their first names and not the men. It is very subtle but it implies to me that they should be taken less seriously. "Mary is stepping into the ring for her final throw just sounds weaker than Smith is taking his/her final throw".

I am all over the map with first and last names. Gary is Gary...no need to explain which Gary. :P :wink: Perdita is Perdita.

I call Sanya Richards Sanya most of the time...I call Andreas...well we wont go there. :lol:

I don't think it is sexist in casual converstaion to mix surnames with first names.
If I said the name Marion here I think we would all know who I meant. Same with Tyson. Or Usain.


Results, announcing, and reporting should be consistent and the last name has always been the standard usage.
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Postby TrackDaddy » Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:53 pm

Daisy wrote:
nevetsllim wrote:I post on tennis forums too and everyone posts Roger, Rafa, Novak as well as Venus, Serena, Maria etc. See, no double standards.

Well there is no double standard if you use first names for everyone. The whole point of the first post in this thread is that some people use first names for women but last names for men. In that scenario it could easily be considered a double standard.


Is that even realistic to expect?

If we called Marion, Jones instead...would that be less confusing?

*Sigh*
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Postby TrackDaddy » Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:54 pm

Speedfirst wrote:I really can't believe you guys are debating this subject, about what is stated on a message board :shock:

Don't sweat the small stuff, it's all small stuff...Wow


Its the moderators who are requiring it.
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Postby Daisy » Wed Jun 03, 2009 5:55 pm

TrackDaddy wrote:
Daisy wrote:
nevetsllim wrote:I post on tennis forums too and everyone posts Roger, Rafa, Novak as well as Venus, Serena, Maria etc. See, no double standards.

Well there is no double standard if you use first names for everyone. The whole point of the first post in this thread is that some people use first names for women but last names for men. In that scenario it could easily be considered a double standard.


Is that even realistic to expect?

If we called Marion, Jones instead...would that be less confusing?


The sentence you bolded is about being consistent. Don't take it too literally. How about this:
    Well there is no double standard if you use first names for both men and women.

guruof track wrote:The notion that I refer to all women by their first names and all men by their last name, is hogwash.

Who said you did? Seemed to be more of a general comment rather than one aimed at anyone in particular.

TrackDaddy wrote:Its the moderators who are requiring it.

Tandfman is not a moderator. I think he was just offering an opinion. I didn't even see it as particularly PC, let alone infringing on peoples first amendment right. Let's get real here.
Last edited by Daisy on Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:03 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby TrackDaddy » Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:01 pm

AS wrote:
guruof track wrote:Being politically correct has ruined America.


Hmmm, being conscious of the impact of one's behaviours and assumptions on the manner in which others are perceived and treated...

That sounds like a recipe for distaster :roll:

Nowhere near the top of the list of things that have "ruined America"...

...unless the "golden age" of America for you is back when them pesky blacks, women and homos know their place, and WASP men could stride through the land free as a bird saying anything they damn well pleased... :oops:


"Homo" isnt a gender or a race and is therefore a different topic than those altogether.

I can't tell you how many times I've typed Tyson, LeGerald, Wallce, X, Lashawn, Jeremy, Usain, Asafa, etc.

Isnt it true that MOST women athletes sir names can or do change during their career while men's dont?

Can that be a legitmate reason for using first names?

Isnt it a good thing that we called Veronica Campbell Brown, VC and now VCB instead of Campbell?

Oh wretched man that I am, who will save me from this body of death?
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Postby TrackDaddy » Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:06 pm

Daisy wrote:
TrackDaddy wrote:Its the moderators who are requiring it.

Tandfman is not a moderator. I think he was just offering an opinion. I didn't even see it as particularly PC, let alone infringing on peoples first amendment right. Let's get real here.


Did you overlook gh's post in the thread and the references to policy and the topic being raised before?

Or did you only see tandfman's "opinion?"
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Postby TrackDaddy » Wed Jun 03, 2009 6:12 pm

mojo wrote:If I said the name Marion here I think we would all know who I meant.


In the future just use Jones and label us stupid if we don't make the connection. :roll:
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