Didn't Marion Jones run/jump her PR's before taking drugs?


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Postby 26mi235 » Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:47 pm

fez wrote:
CookyMonzta wrote:
fez wrote:Is it really true that she hired Johnnie Cochran to defend her against a doping charge when she was 16? I've read it in various different places.

I think it was because she was supposed to take a drug test after one of those races and she missed it. Anyone care to expand on that?


I'm already pretty sure the missed test is true. I want to know if the Johnnie Cochran part is true?

Can't beat that Chewbacca defense


I am pretty sure that the JC part is also true.
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Postby tandfman » Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:47 pm

CookyMonzta wrote:
fez wrote:Is it really true that she hired Johnnie Cochran to defend her against a doping charge when she was 16? I've read it in various different places.

I think it was because she was supposed to take a drug test after one of those races and she missed it. Anyone care to expand on that?

The missed test was not after a race; it was an out-of-competition test. IIRC, her defense was based on her not having received notice of the test.
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Postby eldrick » Sun Mar 22, 2009 11:56 pm

CookyMonzta wrote:Didn't Ben confess? I thought I heard either him or Charlie Francis confessing to having put him on a drug program that went as far back as 1981. Certainly, the effects kicked in at around 1985, when he ran 9.98.


i've never heard of steroids taking 4y to work !?

how about he got an advantage within weeks of taking them - evidence being in '92 when he started taking them again & started running real quick in short period of time
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Postby gh » Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:18 am

Daisy wrote:
lovetorun wrote:This thread is going all over the place (which is typical) but I'd really like to know if anyone else thinks Marion could have been world class without PED's.

I think she could have been.


She was already world class in high school. She ran 11.17 and 22.86 as a 15-year-old. One of the great sprint prodigies of all-time. (And no, I don't believe for a minute she was doping then and continued on for a dozen years at it.)
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Postby jhc68 » Mon Mar 23, 2009 6:26 am

Yeah, I saw her run when she was a 9th grader at Rio Mesa HS and we all knew she was something very special at first glance. I doubt she had the sophistication or the access to be using in high school. Still, as GH said, the question of when she started is unknowable. My impression is that she never really tested positive in formal tests, isn't that right? That presents a sort of dismal impression of the effectiveness of testing at that time. What a waste of time and money!
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Postby eldrick » Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:56 am

gh wrote:She was already world class in high school. She ran 11.17 and 22.86 as a 15-year-old. One of the great sprint prodigies of all-time. (And no, I don't believe for a minute she was doping then and continued on for a dozen years at it.)


unfortunately, big guy, you are pissing in the wind here - a handful believe it

if Tiger ever tested +ve for drugs ( e g steroids ), then you will get the yahoos around here stating, seriously, that Earl had him on 'roids when he was 2y ole on the mike douglas show

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_wHkA_983_s

'roids don't just seem to cause issues with athletes, they appear to have a secondary effect often rendering posters delusional/moronic as well
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Postby lonewolf » Mon Mar 23, 2009 11:25 am

We can speculate all we want but the bottom line is, only Marion knows when she started doping and she ain't telling. Even her suppliers only know when they started supplying. As in other matters, they cannot know with absolute certainty that they were "the first"
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Postby AthleticsInBritain » Mon Mar 23, 2009 1:43 pm

I don't know. It's really not nice to think about the possibility of a 15 year old doping is it? But then, I'm sure there have been cases of 14 and 15 year olds doping in other sports - i.e. gymnastics and swimming, so why not athletics?

Although in the case of gymnastics and swimming, people are competitive at the world level much earlier than in athletics.

If you're starting weights and training in a gym out of school here it wouldn't be hard to come across pro-steroid bodybuilders and gain access to drugs.

Like gh, I personally doubt MJ was doping in HS. After that I wouldn't care to say.
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Postby skiboo » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:21 pm

Marion clean when she set her PRs? :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

So were the East Germans.
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Postby skiboo » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:23 pm

lonewolf wrote:We can speculate all we want but the bottom line is, only Marion knows when she started doping and she ain't telling.


We don't need her to tell. Common sense tells all anyone needs to know in this case. PUH-LEEEEZE!! What is truly shocking is that there are still people around naive and bored enough to speculate whether Marion's nonsense about being clean in 97 is not bullshit.

Image
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Postby eldrick » Mon Mar 23, 2009 2:42 pm

eh ?

to go from 11.14 as 17y ole to 10.76 over 5y later is as shocking as going from 11.3 to high-10.7 in 1y as an adult ???
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Postby EPelle » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:11 pm

There was NOTHING in between those five years... not even hot air.
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Postby eldrick » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:31 pm

nonsense

she was working her way upto ~ og level 'ball in 4y

if you seriously believe that is "couch potatoing", & not having a building effect on the cardiovascular & musculoskeletal systems from an 11.14 base, it's about time to put down the smoked-herring bong

after you've done that, i'd like to hear why you were so conspicous in your absence on commenting on

going from 11.3 to high-10.7 in 1y as an adult ???
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Postby gh » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:37 pm

skiboo wrote:
lonewolf wrote:We can speculate all we want but the bottom line is, only Marion knows when she started doping and she ain't telling.


We don't need her to tell. Common sense tells all anyone needs to know in this case. PUH-LEEEEZE!! What is truly shocking is that there are still people around naive and bored enough to speculate whether Marion's nonsense about being clean in 97 is not bullshit.



I doubt she was, but after seeing what she was capable of as a high schooler, I think the door remains open to a (slim) chance that she was indeed still legal in '97. She was that impressive. I can think of few other high schoolers (in any event) that looked to have as much upside potential as she did.
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Postby gh » Mon Mar 23, 2009 3:41 pm

EPelle wrote:There was NOTHING in between those five years... not even hot air.


Not exactly true. She didn't do much sprinting (11.28/11.21w in '93, 11.40 in '94, 23.96w in '95) but jumped 22-½ (22-1¾w) in '93, PRed at 22-1¾ in '94 when she was NCAA runner-up, and did 21-9½ in '95 when she was NCAA runner-up.
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Postby EPelle » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:13 pm

This I know (I listed it out on the drug board in 2006), and I was being more figurative than literal. She had no top-25 times in the 100m/200m following high school up to 1997.
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Postby gh » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:15 pm

And she concentrated more on basketball than track and broke her foot twice, so a lack of track progress not entirely surprising.
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Postby EPelle » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:27 pm

Solid points, but a rapid-fire acceleration into the pro ranks following a sustained absence from techincal races which require specific training - not just talent - can't be explained away by stating that Jones was once a superb talent; that talent well dried up some between her final year at Thousand Oaks and her time at NC.

No times of note during a period where she concentrated on basketboll following a prep campaign where she was also a two-sport star. Granted, NCAA comp required more from her in terms of strength, musclur build and schedule. Then she sustained a broken foot. Then a re-break four months later. From her final season to the track, it took only 13 weeks of dedication (?!) to not just break a long-standing PB, but to run three rounds at USA Champs under 11 seconds, nonetheless.

Unbelievable.
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Postby eldrick » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:30 pm

very important law of physics to consider here with weight/performances

losing blubber ( supposed overweight thru 'ball ) thru just pure aerobic training + dieting can improve performances by

ratio of masses^0.5

for sprinting & likely just the simple ratio for lj, as it helps in both run-up speed & less to carry in flight

she is listed as 150 in most sources in her prime ( the supposed "cut" of '97 athletics )

i'd imagine she was 155 - 160 at least to posters here claiming to have seen her in her 'ball days

her pbs in '92/'93 ( latter for lj ) :

11.14/22.58/6.71

just assuming no improvement in these as a blubbery 155 - 160 pounder, getting down to 150 woud improve those by

( 150/155 )^ 0.5 to ( 150/160 )^0.5 & just ratio for lj

so we are thinking from physics, an improvement to

10.79 - 10.96

21.87 - 22.21

6.93 - 7.15
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Postby eldrick » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:33 pm

EPelle wrote:She had no top-25 times in the 100m/200m following high school up to 1997.


eh ?

how about

going from 11.3 to high-10.7 in 1y as an adult ???


where did 11.3+ place before going to high-10.7 ???
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Postby ed gee » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:42 pm

No.

She displayed her natural abilities the year she waddled a 55 second 400.

lovetorun wrote:This thread is going all over the place (which is typical) but I'd really like to know if anyone else thinks Marion could have been world class without PED's.
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Postby bad hammy » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:48 pm

gh,

Feel free to step in between eldy and Epelle before we have a hundred back-and-forths here . . .
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Postby EPelle » Mon Mar 23, 2009 4:57 pm

bad hammy wrote:gh,

Feel free to step in between eldy and Epelle before we have a hundred back-and-forths here . . .

? My only responses on this page have been directly to gh.
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Postby eldrick » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:00 pm

if you don't correct ignorance & stupidity, it festers...
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Postby AthleticsInBritain » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:11 pm

EPelle wrote:
bad hammy wrote:gh,

Feel free to step in between eldy and Epelle before we have a hundred back-and-forths here . . .

? My only responses on this page have been directly to gh.


That's how I read Epelle's responses too. He very admirably hasn't engaged the troll who's arse-achingly, heroin-junkie desperate to drag him into a pointless debate so as to get a fix from the adrenaline rush of trying to prove his is biggest. In fact, the poster in question will even get a perverse thrill from me describing said poster like this.

Said poster is becoming more and more desperate and I'm worried he'll implode for lack of a fix and to be honest, it's sucking the enjoyment and life out of too many threads at the moment.
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Postby fez » Mon Mar 23, 2009 5:13 pm

gh wrote:And she concentrated more on basketball than track and broke her foot twice, so a lack of track progress not entirely surprising.


The broken foot is also very significant though because injuries can be a big factor in turning to PEDs and a way of justifying it to oneself.

I agree with you gh that it is unlikely that she was doping as a teenager.

Some of these cases seem to support my biased opinion which is that the PEDs help but not all that much (Chambers, Jones) and that their performance enhancing effects probably have more to do with injury prevention and recovery then anything else. They help you train hard but not smart.
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Postby lovetorun » Mon Mar 23, 2009 7:07 pm

gh wrote:
Daisy wrote:
lovetorun wrote:This thread is going all over the place (which is typical) but I'd really like to know if anyone else thinks Marion could have been world class without PED's.

I think she could have been.


She was already world class in high school. She ran 11.17 and 22.86 as a 15-year-old. One of the great sprint prodigies of all-time. (And no, I don't believe for a minute she was doping then and continued on for a dozen years at it.)


I believe both Daisy and gh....and feel that the whole Marion Jones saga is tragic since she could have been really good with no PED abuse.
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Postby CookyMonzta » Mon Mar 23, 2009 9:59 pm

eldrick wrote:
CookyMonzta wrote:Didn't Ben confess? I thought I heard either him or Charlie Francis confessing to having put him on a drug program that went as far back as 1981. Certainly, the effects kicked in at around 1985, when he ran 9.98.


i've never heard of steroids taking 4y to work !?

how about he got an advantage within weeks of taking them - evidence being in '92 when he started taking them again & started running real quick in short period of time

There's more than one kind of drug, and Charlie was undoubtedly using more than one kind of drug on Ben. My guess is that the drugs he was using in 1981-84 didn't produce the desired effect; so in '85 he most likely put him on something more efficient, or more potent. I imagine stanozolol is more powerful than mere artificial testosterone, yes? He didn't break 10.00 until 1985. In fact, he was having trouble breaking 10.10. He had to have been using something stronger in '85 than what he was using in '81-84.
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Postby CookyMonzta » Mon Mar 23, 2009 10:16 pm

skiboo wrote:
lonewolf wrote:We can speculate all we want but the bottom line is, only Marion knows when she started doping and she ain't telling.


We don't need her to tell. Common sense tells all anyone needs to know in this case. PUH-LEEEEZE!! What is truly shocking is that there are still people around naive and bored enough to speculate whether Marion's nonsense about being clean in 97 is not bullshit.

Image

Given the lively discussion we have been having here, one must conclude that the issue here is far more complex than to simply paint it with a broad brush, as you are attempting to do. But then again since you are a newbie here I wouldn't expect you to understand right away.

No doubt many of us here are suspicious of her 1997-99 seasons, but we just don't have a smoking gun related to those years. We only have Sydney 2000, Conte's charts and his statement that she joined his cadre in mid-August, 2000, and her EPO A-test in 2006, for which the last 6 years of her career (starting with Sydney) were scrubbed from the record books.
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Postby eldrick » Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:26 am

CookyMonzta wrote:I imagine stanozolol is more powerful than mere artificial testosterone, yes? He didn't break 10.00 until 1985. In fact, he was having trouble breaking 10.10. He had to have been using something stronger in '85 than what he was using in '81-84.


no

testo is a full agonist like stanozolol - little difference in efficacy or potency

all that is likely is a dose increase, which is likely when you see the way he got run over after leading the '84 race to 60m - his dosing regime was only keeping him strong for 60m, not 100m, so increased dose or frequency is likely

& back then, there wasn't the vast cocktail available today - 4 or 5 steroids were about it, little else
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Postby eldrick » Tue Mar 24, 2009 12:36 am

AthleticsInBritain wrote: He very admirably hasn't engaged the troll who's arse-achingly, heroin-junkie desperate to drag him into a pointless debate so as to get a fix...


where's the fly-swatter ?

hmmm... i know these scousers are famous for their love of skag along with their famous collection of hubcaps & satnavs

the obssession with smack is worrying - it's frying whatever paucity of neuronal capacity existed pre-addiction - i suggest you inquire into your local methadone programmes...

btw, you coud have a use - i'm in the market for a top of the range tomtom, price negotiable

thank you
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Postby Powell » Tue Mar 24, 2009 1:27 am

CookyMonzta wrote:There's more than one kind of drug, and Charlie was undoubtedly using more than one kind of drug on Ben. My guess is that the drugs he was using in 1981-84 didn't produce the desired effect; so in '85 he most likely put him on something more efficient, or more potent. I imagine stanozolol is more powerful than mere artificial testosterone, yes? He didn't break 10.00 until 1985. In fact, he was having trouble breaking 10.10. He had to have been using something stronger in '85 than what he was using in '81-84.


How about he simply developed with age and experience? He was just 23 in 1985.
Also, you're making it sound like he was no good before then, while he was already an Olympic medalist in LA.
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Postby steve » Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:18 am

CookyMonzta wrote:But then again since you are a newbie here I wouldn't expect you to understand right away.


Talk about an arrogant position!! Those kind of statements are not helpful to any discussion.
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Postby Dutra » Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:32 am

AthleticsInBritain wrote:I don't know. It's really not nice to think about the possibility of a 15 year old doping is it? But then, I'm sure there have been cases of 14 and 15 year olds doping in other sports - i.e. gymnastics and swimming, so why not athletics?


Not sure why anyone would be surprised at the possibility that a HS athlete would use PEDs. It may not be widespread but there's probably enough usage to eliminate the surprise. In Jones' case, while I think too many are attempting to nail down a clear answer...for which there certainly never will be one....two facts are known and they are that she was at least tangentally involved in an incident in HS and as an adult athlete was involved in a major scandal and was associated with multiple violators. So to dismiss the fact that she may have used PEDs at any time during here career, as at least one poster is attempting to do, is pretty odd to me.
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Postby gh » Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:35 am

steve wrote:
CookyMonzta wrote:But then again since you are a newbie here I wouldn't expect you to understand right away.


Talk about an arrogant position!! Those kind of statements are not helpful to any discussion.


Nor do they have any place on any thread.
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Postby skiboo » Tue Mar 24, 2009 6:38 am

CookyMonzta wrote:Given the lively discussion we have been having here, one must conclude that the issue here is far more complex than to simply paint it with a broad brush, as you are attempting to do. But then again since you are a newbie here I wouldn't expect you to understand right away.

No doubt many of us here are suspicious of her 1997-99 seasons, but we just don't have a smoking gun related to those years. We only have Sydney 2000,


I believe you are enjoying making what is obvious to many here - a ridiculous progression in next to no time after a long and unspectacular hiatus - into something "complex" and therefore good for a debate. When all we have is Marion Jones' word on the issue, and a lot of evidence in the form of unbelievable results, followed by a request to believe that she then became less impressive after taking drugs, I salute you for wishing to believe she might have been telling the truth. I'll vote for intuition after a very long time watching the sport, newbie or not. :wink:
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