Didn't Marion Jones run/jump her PR's before taking drugs?


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Didn't Marion Jones run/jump her PR's before taking drugs?

Postby lovetorun » Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:38 pm

My understanding is that Marion Jones began taking drugs in 2000. But weren't her PR's (10.65, 21.81 and 23-11+) set before that....1998 I believe? If so, what an irony, and tragedy....she didn't need those drugs.
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Postby mump boy » Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:50 pm

her 200 pb is 21.62a but it was set in 98
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Postby gh » Fri Mar 20, 2009 2:56 pm

That's her story... we have only her say-so on it, and as we've discovered, she ended up in jail for being a liar.

It's not an illogical assumption to draw that when she re-emerged on the track scene in '97 with a body sculpted by god (and with the company that she was keeping) that she had been busy in the interim.
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Postby eldrick » Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:09 pm

olympic calibre basketballers don't train hard enough to get sculpted bodies nor get tested whilst playing basketball ?!
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Postby dukehjsteve » Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:22 pm

gh wrote:That's her story... we have only her say-so on it, and as we've discovered, she ended up in jail for being a liar.

It's not an illogical assumption to draw that when she re-emerged on the track scene in '97 with a body sculpted by god (and with the company that she was keeping) that she had been busy in the interim.


GH, plainly said, and sadly in all probability, accurately said.
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Postby kuha » Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:40 pm

dukehjsteve wrote:
gh wrote:That's her story... we have only her say-so on it, and as we've discovered, she ended up in jail for being a liar.

It's not an illogical assumption to draw that when she re-emerged on the track scene in '97 with a body sculpted by god (and with the company that she was keeping) that she had been busy in the interim.


GH, plainly said, and sadly in all probability, accurately said.


Yup.
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Postby gh » Fri Mar 20, 2009 3:53 pm

eldrick wrote:olympic calibre basketballers don't train hard enough to get sculpted bodies nor get tested whilst playing basketball ?!


I don't follow women's hoops well enough to make a definitive statement, but no, I've never seen a basketball player with a body like Marion's (not a woman at least). Her basketball career was over a year before she emerged as a sprinter again in '97, so what testing, if any, existed in that realm is irrelevant.
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Postby EPelle » Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:01 pm

Jones played for the Tarheels in 1997, finishing the season in march. 13 weeks later, she was a double (triple?) USA track and field champion. Word from folks here on the boards was that she was more out of shape (looking) than ever. She suffered two major injuries in hoops (broken leg). Didn't run a 100m race from her second year onward. She then ran 11,4x in her first race back, but somehow mustered her first sub-11,00 times at USA Champs. Her reason for her fast improving times was simply that Graham changed her block positions and made a couple of other minor adjustments.

Presto.
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Postby eldrick » Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:21 pm

EPelle wrote:She then ran 11,4x in her first race back, but somehow mustered her first sub-11,00 times at USA Champs. Her reason for her fast improving times was simply that Graham changed her block positions and made a couple of other minor adjustments.

Presto.


no surprise there as she already had 11.14 ability as a kid & was probably 1/2 foot taller & 20 pound more muscular in '07

1993 11.28 1.40 Norwalk 04/06/199
1992 11.14 1.70 Norwalk 06/06/1992
1991 11.17 2.00 Cerritos 01/06/1991
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Postby polevaultpower » Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:22 pm

eldrick wrote:olympic calibre basketballers don't train hard enough to get sculpted bodies nor get tested whilst playing basketball ?!


How many women's basketball players have you seen in spandex? They're in pretty good shape, but they rarely have that track and field sculpted look to them. Different kinds of training.
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Postby gh » Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:27 pm

EPelle wrote:Jones played for the Tarheels in 1997, finishing the season in march. 13 weeks later, she was a double (triple?) USA track and field champion. Word from folks here on the boards was that she was more out of shape (looking) than ever. She suffered two major injuries in hoops (broken leg). Didn't run a 100m race from her second year onward. She then ran 11,4x in her first race back, but somehow mustered her first sub-11,00 times at USA Champs. Her reason for her fast improving times was simply that Graham changed her block positions and made a couple of other minor adjustments.

Presto.


I had forgotten that she played hoops again in '97... thought she had given it up after her second broken foot (not leg) in '96.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:29 pm

eldrick wrote:she already had 11.14 ability as a kid & was probably 1/2 foot taller

Huh? :shock: :? I realize that you Europeans have been on the metric system for a while now, but you do realize that a half foot is 15 cm's, don't you?
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Postby gh » Fri Mar 20, 2009 4:33 pm

eldrick wrote:....
no surprise there as she already had 11.14 ability as a kid & was probably 1/2 foot taller & 20 pound more muscular in '07

1993 11.28 1.40 Norwalk 04/06/199
1992 11.14 1.70 Norwalk 06/06/1992
1991 11.17 2.00 Cerritos 01/06/1991


No, she was listed as 5-10/140 in the '92 season, same as when she broke out in '97.
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Postby CookyMonzta » Fri Mar 20, 2009 8:08 pm

The short answer to all this is, we don't know exactly how fast she was or could have been, in fantasy or reality. On top of that, only her record of performances from the XXVIII Olympiad in Sydney (2000) to the day she sang (I believe it was Oct. 7, 2007) have been stricken from the books, and the money she made during that period ordered recalled. Unfortunately, as with all things DDR, CCCP and CHN ('93-'97), what she did before Sydney stays in the books, including her 10.65A, 21.62A and 7,31 long jump, not to mention a little-known 4x200 WR of 1:27.34 at the 2000 Penn Relays, where she anchored in 20.8...

...That is, unless Trevor Graham spills all the beans on his entire program in the years 1997 to 1999, or Marion herself finally comes to realize that she can't run or hide from herself anymore, and tells everything that went on in those 3 seasons, without sugar-coating a thing.

I doubt it, though. For one, she wasn't the only one who might have been dirty during that period. For another, she can't afford it, because all the money she made between June, 1997 and August, 2000, is gone. She has nothing to give back if she is stripped of her 1997-99 seasons.

Last but not least, I don't think the track world can afford it. If she loses everything from her 1997-99 performances, a whole slew of meet records, including her World Cup record of 10.65, along with several 10.71s, 10.72s, 10.74s and 10.75s, would have to be wiped out, along with the awards and money she earned.. Her 1999 World Championship record of 10.70 would get tossed, and the AR of 41.47 in 1997 would be stricken, for which she, Chryste Gaines (who herself had been suspended), Inger Miller and Gail Devers would have to return their gold medals.

Who knows how many meet records and medals would have to change hands because of her? And who knows how much more money would have to be given out, when she is removed from the record books and the 4th-place finishers at these meets are elevated to 3rd? It would be a logistical nightmare.

And she is almost certainly not the only one. The fact that she was the biggest fish out there made her a big target.
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Postby gh » Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:24 am

at this point, long string of unacceptable posts removed by mods.... this forum does not tolerate idle drug speculation about people who have never tested positive.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Mar 21, 2009 6:35 am

gh wrote:at this point, long string of unacceptable posts removed by mods.... this forum does not tolerate idle drug speculation about people who have never tested positive.

Long string of unacceptable posts? Huh? :? Would you at least say who the guilty people are, because if I'm one of them, I would like to apologize since it was never my intention to violate the forum rules.
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Postby Dutra » Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:08 am

As usual the thread has gone off track. Jones missed a test as a youth and then was nailed as an adult. If anyone wishes to hang on to the naive thought that she was most definitely clean the rest of her career then you can continue to flail away. To the rest of the more reasoned posters there is a lot of room for proper skepticism.
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Postby paulthefan » Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:23 am

It is impossible for an athlete to get a PR while proved to be on peds.
Last edited by paulthefan on Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Didn't Marion Jones run/jump her PR's before taking drug

Postby steve » Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:02 am

My post was part of those removed, but I firmly believe that Bolt has not used PEDs and there is no evidence to suggest that he has. He is, in my opinion, the most talented sprinter in the history of the sport, and has not had to retire early (T Smith) or switch to another sport (B Hayes, R Nehemiah, W Gault, etc.). We all get to sit back and watch what will hopefully be an awesome career unfold.

If somehow my post appeared to suggest otherwise, I apologize.
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Postby gh » Sat Mar 21, 2009 9:56 am

paulthefan wrote:It is impossible for an athlete to get a PR while proved to be on peds.


Oh, if only somebody had explained that to Ben Johnson he could have used it as a defense! C'mon, get real.
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Postby mrbowie » Sat Mar 21, 2009 1:12 pm

I will never forget when I saw Marion Jones long jumping at the NCAA championship (I think it was Fresno or Sacramento). I couldn't believe my eyes, because she looked so downright tubby.

I saw her coach leaning against a chain-link fence, so I walked up, introduced myself as a fan that had seen her in action since she was an early teenager in California. I told him what I saw and asked what kind of shape she was in.

He said she was in basketball but not track shape.

When she reappeared, it was hard to believe that she was the same person.

If I had not seen all this with my own eyes I wouldn't believe it if somebody just told it to me.

One other thing: what kind of sick mind does it take to do what she did and flash that exuberant smile that captivated a nation? She should have been hanging her head in shame.

To hell with Marion Jones and her ilk. Our sport is a all the better for having gotten rid of them.
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Postby tandfman » Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:14 pm

mrbowie wrote:I will never forget when I saw Marion Jones long jumping at the NCAA championship (I think it was Fresno or Sacramento).

The NCAA Championships have never been in Fresno and I believe the first time they were in Sacramento was 2003. long after Jones was a collegian. So I'm afraid you've forgotten what you thought you'd never forget. :(
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Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Mar 21, 2009 2:44 pm

tandfman wrote:
mrbowie wrote:I will never forget when I saw Marion Jones long jumping at the NCAA championship (I think it was Fresno or Sacramento).

The NCAA Championships have never been in Fresno and I believe the first time they were in Sacramento was 2003. long after Jones was a collegian. So I'm afraid you've forgotten what you thought you'd never forget. :(

They were in Boise in 1994, Knoxville in 1995 and Eugene in 1996.
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Postby lovetorun » Sat Mar 21, 2009 7:19 pm

O.K. so we aren't sure if Marion's 10.65, 21.62 and 7.31 PR's were PED assisted or not....but, she obviously was a gifted athlete...didn't she run a 22.58 200m when 16 years old?

My whole point in all this is the tragedy of her poor choices...I believe she had enough talent to be world class with no PED assistance.
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Postby eldrick » Sat Mar 21, 2009 8:00 pm

lovetorun wrote:O.K. so we aren't sure if Marion's 10.65, 21.62 and 7.31 PR's were PED assisted or not....but, she obviously was a gifted athlete...didn't she run a 22.58 200m when 16 years old?

My whole point in all this is the tragedy of her poor choices...I believe she had enough talent to be world class with no PED assistance.


i woudn't waste your time

if you offered 12.0s/24.0s/5m intrinsic, unassisted of her, the drug issue seems to have befuddled brains as well, with thinking of

"oh, i coudn't say about 12.0s/24.0s/5m

oooooh...

then again, is that with a +1 or -1.5 wind ?"
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Postby paulthefan » Sat Mar 21, 2009 9:35 pm

gh wrote:
paulthefan wrote:It is impossible for an athlete to get a PR while proved to be on peds.


Oh, if only somebody had explained that to Ben Johnson he could have used it as a defense! C'mon, get real.


I think I can help. My comment was tongue in cheek. The record books do not show Ben Johnson as having the PR of 9.79 he "recorded" in Seoul. Today even on this board someone might post a thread about PR's that Ben ran before he tested positive and build a case for Ben's very elite sprint status just as this one does for Marion and just as a recent one did for Jordan Vaden's 19.98 at the USATF.
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Postby ed gee » Sun Mar 22, 2009 10:08 am

It was the ´95 version of USATF and I agree with the assessment of her appearing tubby. She was a different athlete by Indy '97.

tandfman wrote:
mrbowie wrote:I will never forget when I saw Marion Jones long jumping at the NCAA championship (I think it was Fresno or Sacramento).

The NCAA Championships have never been in Fresno and I believe the first time they were in Sacramento was 2003. long after Jones was a collegian. So I'm afraid you've forgotten what you thought you'd never forget. :(
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Postby mrbowie » Sun Mar 22, 2009 4:25 pm

I have finally reached senility.

I knew it would come, but I never suspected it had already arrived!
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Postby CookyMonzta » Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:03 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
gh wrote:at this point, long string of unacceptable posts removed by mods.... this forum does not tolerate idle drug speculation about people who have never tested positive.

Long string of unacceptable posts? Huh? :? Would you at least say who the guilty people are, because if I'm one of them, I would like to apologize since it was never my intention to violate the forum rules.


I think he might be referring to a section in my post; specifically, the following:

...That is, unless Trevor Graham spills all the beans on his entire program in the years 1997 to 1999, or Marion herself finally comes to realize that she can't run or hide from herself anymore, and tells everything that went on in those 3 seasons, without sugar-coating a thing.

I doubt it, though. For one, she wasn't the only one who might have been dirty during that period. For another, she can't afford it, because all the money she made between June, 1997 and August, 2000, is gone. She has nothing to give back if she is stripped of her 1997-99 seasons


When I say that she wasn't the only one who might have been dirty during the period (that is, 1997-99), that isn't exactly pure speculation. Did I miss something, or did Antonio Pettigrew confess to having been dirty in 1997, for which USATF and USADA disregarded the 8-year statute of limitations (it was 11 years before he sang) and swept aside his stats for that year?
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Postby fez » Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:06 pm

Is it really true that she hired Johnnie Cochran to defend her against a doping charge when she was 16? I've read it in various different places.
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Postby CookyMonzta » Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:30 pm

paulthefan wrote:
gh wrote:
paulthefan wrote:It is impossible for an athlete to get a PR while proved to be on peds.


Oh, if only somebody had explained that to Ben Johnson he could have used it as a defense! C'mon, get real.


I think I can help. My comment was tongue in cheek. The record books do not show Ben Johnson as having the PR of 9.79 he "recorded" in Seoul. Today even on this board someone might post a thread about PR's that Ben ran before he tested positive and build a case for Ben's very elite sprint status just as this one does for Marion and just as a recent one did for Jordan Vaden's 19.98 at the USATF.

Didn't Ben confess? I thought I heard either him or Charlie Francis confessing to having put him on a drug program that went as far back as 1981. Certainly, the effects kicked in at around 1985, when he ran 9.98.
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Postby CookyMonzta » Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:32 pm

fez wrote:Is it really true that she hired Johnnie Cochran to defend her against a doping charge when she was 16? I've read it in various different places.

I think it was because she was supposed to take a drug test after one of those races and she missed it. Anyone care to expand on that?
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Postby CookyMonzta » Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:35 pm

mrbowie wrote:I will never forget when I saw Marion Jones long jumping at the NCAA championship (I think it was Fresno or Sacramento). I couldn't believe my eyes, because she looked so downright tubby.

I saw her coach leaning against a chain-link fence, so I walked up, introduced myself as a fan that had seen her in action since she was an early teenager in California. I told him what I saw and asked what kind of shape she was in.

He said she was in basketball but not track shape.

When she reappeared, it was hard to believe that she was the same person.

If I had not seen all this with my own eyes I wouldn't believe it if somebody just told it to me.

One other thing: what kind of sick mind does it take to do what she did and flash that exuberant smile that captivated a nation? She should have been hanging her head in shame.

To hell with Marion Jones and her ilk. Our sport is a all the better for having gotten rid of them.

What year was this? I don't think she ran on the elite level at all in the years 1994-96. Now, 1997 is probably a different story. As I remember it, she went straight to the pros in track after basketball season was over.
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Postby Daisy » Sun Mar 22, 2009 6:57 pm

fez wrote:Is it really true that she hired Johnnie Cochran to defend her against a doping charge when she was 16? I've read it in various different places.


More to the point are we naive to think that drugs are not a problem in HS, especially now that the NBA is recruiting directly from high schools? There are a lot of good reason to gain an edge even at that stage of their careers.

Just did a quick search for any articles on this topic and came up with the following stat:
New Jersey, Florida, Texas and Illinois have tried steroid testing since 2006, and an examination of the results by The Associated Press shows that only 18 tests out of 30,799 have come back positive.
Source

This suggests using PED's is pretty low in high schools. Or should I say, it is when there is a drug testing program in place. Having said this, I'm not sure if these are random tests or competition tests. I assume it would be relatively easy to be clear of steroids before a competition.
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Postby lovetorun » Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:20 pm

This thread is going all over the place (which is typical) but I'd really like to know if anyone else thinks Marion could have been world class without PED's.
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Postby Daisy » Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:50 pm

lovetorun wrote:This thread is going all over the place (which is typical) but I'd really like to know if anyone else thinks Marion could have been world class without PED's.

I think she could have been.
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Postby CookyMonzta » Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:10 pm

lovetorun wrote:This thread is going all over the place (which is typical) but I'd really like to know if anyone else thinks Marion could have been world class without PED's.

I think the original question was, "Didn't MJ run/junp her PRs before she got dirty?" The answer to that is, we simply don't know...yet. But the consensus here is that, since 6 years of performances, going back to Sydney 2000 and ending in August, 2006 (the last time she ran) were wiped from the books, it is highly probable that she was dirty in 1998, when she set those PRs. Like so many from the GDR, the USSR and China, there is no individual evidence (that is, evidence pertaining to any specific athlete), unless I missed a documentary regarding Communist-bloc athletics. As a result, like Koch's 47.60 and Kratochvílová's 1:53.28 (both of which are suspicious to many), MJ's marks before Sydney stay in the record books.
Last edited by CookyMonzta on Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby fez » Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:12 pm

lovetorun wrote:This thread is going all over the place (which is typical) but I'd really like to know if anyone else thinks Marion could have been world class without PED's.


Nope
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Postby fez » Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:17 pm

CookyMonzta wrote:
fez wrote:Is it really true that she hired Johnnie Cochran to defend her against a doping charge when she was 16? I've read it in various different places.

I think it was because she was supposed to take a drug test after one of those races and she missed it. Anyone care to expand on that?


I'm already pretty sure the missed test is true. I want to know if the Johnnie Cochran part is true?

Can't beat that Chewbacca defense
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Postby mrbowie » Sun Mar 22, 2009 8:40 pm

CookyMonzta wrote:
mrbowie wrote:I will never forget when I saw Marion Jones long jumping at the NCAA championship (I think it was Fresno or Sacramento). I couldn't believe my eyes, because she looked so downright tubby.

I saw her coach leaning against a chain-link fence, so I walked up, introduced myself as a fan that had seen her in action since she was an early teenager in California. I told him what I saw and asked what kind of shape she was in.

He said she was in basketball but not track shape.

When she reappeared, it was hard to believe that she was the same person.

If I had not seen all this with my own eyes I wouldn't believe it if somebody just told it to me.

One other thing: what kind of sick mind does it take to do what she did and flash that exuberant smile that captivated a nation? She should have been hanging her head in shame.

To hell with Marion Jones and her ilk. Our sport is a all the better for having gotten rid of them.

What year was this? I don't think she ran on the elite level at all in the years 1994-96. Now, 1997 is probably a different story. As I remember it, she went straight to the pros in track after basketball season was over.


Well, she long jumped, I don't think she ran. I would almost swear the meet was either in San Jose or Fresno and that it was a college meet, because she wore the baby blue singlet of North Carolina and I spoke with her college coach.
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