"This Election Will Change The World"


Normally open July 4th only---the one day a year when partisan politics, religion, etc. are acceptable topics on this Board (within reason). The forum is now closed.

Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:58 am

Marlow wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
Marlow wrote:I have always found European racism to be virtually identical to American racism, both in scope and number.

I couldn't disagree with you more

I'm glad your experience was different, but in Germany I found plenty of anti-Turk (gastarbeiters) sentiment, in England plenty of anti-Indian sentiment, in France plenty of anti-Arab sentiment, etc..

That's why I qualified my statement. Black Americans compare how we're treated here versus how we're treated over there, but that doesn't mean you're wrong in your observations.
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Postby SQUACKEE » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:01 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Marlow wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
Marlow wrote:I have always found European racism to be virtually identical to American racism, both in scope and number.

I couldn't disagree with you more

I'm glad your experience was different, but in Germany I found plenty of anti-Turk (gastarbeiters) sentiment, in England plenty of anti-Indian sentiment, in France plenty of anti-Arab sentiment, etc..

That's why I qualified my statement. Black Americans compare how we're treated here versus how we're treated over there, but that doesn't mean you're wrong in your observations.


Saw a documentary on Mile Davis and he was treated like a god in Europe..as he should be! :D
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Postby EPelle » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:04 am

Daisy wrote:I'd say it is a bit different but it is there. More nationalism than racism.

Here in Stockholm: Anti-Greek, Anti-Finn, Anti-Turk, Anti-African, Anti-Arab, Anti-American, Anti-everyone non-Swede not due to race, but to country of origin.
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Postby mike renfro » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:11 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
tandfman wrote:
Friar wrote: It would be hard to think of anything McCain did right.

I thought his concession speech was terrific--better than Obama's. Of course, you don't win elections on concession speeches.

I agree. Obama's speech seemed a little lackluster by his standards. It certainly didn't live up to my expectations, because I thought he would bring the house down. But I'm assuming that the decision to tone it down was intentional.


I think the key in the above is "by his standards". The speech hit my wife and I very emotionally. Not every speech will be Gettysburg Address quality, and Barack has set the bar pretty high for himself.
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Postby Conor Dary » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:12 am

Daisy wrote:
EPelle wrote:Yes, what if:

Image


Is it my imagination or is that a skinny version of Arnold Schwarzenegger?


Obama looks like Obama except for his hair. McCain's photo reminds me more of Robert Mugabe.
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Postby mike renfro » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:21 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Marlow wrote:Not to put too fine a point on it, I have always found European racism to be virtually identical to American racism, both in scope and number. Now that we have broken through, I'm sure Europe is just as capable.

I couldn't disagree with you more, and every Black person I've ever met who has been fortunate enough to travel feels the same way. Of course I'm only speaking from the Black American perspective, because I've had Europeans tell me that Africans don't get treated the same way we do. It really should come as no surprise, since Europeans don't have the history of institutional racism - segregated schools, segregated military, segregated buses, White-only hotels, White-only restaurants, White-only voting rights, etc. - that we do. Sure they practiced it in their colonies and conquered terrirtoies, but those policies were never brought back to the homeland.


Uh, I suspect that the odd 6 million or so Jews might disagree with that analysis. In Hannah Arendt's Origins of Totalilarianism, colonialism and anti-semitism were the lead culprits. The Dreyfus Affair had a star role in this. Scapegoats always seem to be necessary.
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Postby gh » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:26 am

Rupert Murdoch doesn't read his own papers?

from Forbes.com

<<....Newspapers around the world seemed upbeat, and the most positive press in Britain appeared to come from the two papers owned by News Corp., owner Rupert Murdoch.

"One Giant Leap For Mankind," proclaimed The Sun, a right-wing tabloid that is widely read in Britain, while The Times of London had a picture of Obama with the headline "The New World."
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Postby Conor Dary » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:30 am

gh wrote:Rupert Murdoch doesn't read his own papers?

from Forbes.com

<<....Newspapers around the world seemed upbeat, and the most positive press in Britain appeared to come from the two papers owned by News Corp., owner Rupert Murdoch.

"One Giant Leap For Mankind," proclaimed The Sun, a right-wing tabloid that is widely read in Britain, while The Times of London had a picture of Obama with the headline "The New World."


Hey, Murdoch is a businessman. He can tell where the current is now flowing.
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Postby Helen S » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:45 am

For the first itme since I started voting, every state I ever lived in was won by the person I voted for- IN, VA, VT, NC, PA.
Regardign the speeches, I liked the statements I heard on PBS -
"It was vintage John McCain" - meaning it was the guy from over 10 years ago.
Obama was not celebrating- he realized the seriousness of the upoming years ahead.

Yes, we can! ( I prefer this statement with the pause offered by a comma. )
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Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:58 am

mike renfro wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
Marlow wrote:Not to put too fine a point on it, I have always found European racism to be virtually identical to American racism, both in scope and number.

I couldn't disagree with you more, and every Black person I've ever met who has been fortunate enough to travel feels the same way. Of course I'm only speaking from the Black American perspective.

Uh, I suspect that the odd 6 million or so Jews might disagree with that analysis.

A few years ago, while my mother and I were visiting the Dachau Concentration Camp, she said, "You know, the Jews suffered as much as we did." Then she corrected that statement by saying, "No, the Jews suffered worse than we did, but we suffered a lot longer." My point is that 13 years of very severe instituionalized racism in one European country doesn't compare to 350 years of less severe instituionalized racism throughout and entire country, when it comes to indoctrinating a culture. The duration and scope of an indoctrination process are more crucial to its success than its barbarity, IMO.
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Postby LopenUupunut » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:24 am

EPelle wrote:
Daisy wrote:I'd say it is a bit different but it is there. More nationalism than racism. It explains much of the violence at soccer games (more often white on white).

One example of a similar type of racism is at the soccer games when fans throw bananas on the field at black players and make monkey sounds. It's sad to see.

Here in Stockholm: Anti-Greek, Anti-Finn, Anti-Turk, Anti-African, Anti-Arab, Anti-American, Anti-everyone non-Swede not due to race, but to country of origin.

I agree with these observations. My take is that racists these days tend to largely be low-IQ people (which explains the large overlap of racists and soccer fans, and also why non-White track athletes don't face so many problems). But almost everyone, stupid or not, feels uneasy about foreigners in general (and roots for home country athletes in a track meet!) And in Europe there are a lot of foreigners, since everywhere you look there's a national border...
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Postby Marlow » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:41 am

LopenUupunut wrote:And in Europe there are a lot of foreigners, since everywhere you look there's a national border...

Yeah, I gotta admit I hate them obnoxious Georgians and Alabamans and South Carolinans!
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Postby mike renfro » Wed Nov 05, 2008 10:53 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
mike renfro wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
Marlow wrote:Not to put too fine a point on it, I have always found European racism to be virtually identical to American racism, both in scope and number.

I couldn't disagree with you more, and every Black person I've ever met who has been fortunate enough to travel feels the same way. Of course I'm only speaking from the Black American perspective.

Uh, I suspect that the odd 6 million or so Jews might disagree with that analysis.

A few years ago, while my mother and I were visiting the Dachau Concentration Camp, she said, "You know, the Jews suffered as much as we did." Then she corrected that statement by saying, "No, the Jews suffered worse than we did, but we suffered a lot longer." My point is that 13 years of very severe instituionalized racism in one European country doesn't compare to 350 years of less severe instituionalized racism throughout and entire country, when it comes to indoctrinating a culture. The duration and scope of an indoctrination process are more crucial to its success than its barbarity, IMO.


Not to trivialize the horrors of slavery (and the aftermath) in the western hemisphere, the Jews had a bit more history than the culmination in the "final solution". The laws regarding what professions, where they could live, etc go back to at least the middle ages, and probably earlier. By duration and savagery, the Jewish experience is certainly on a par with the Black experience, at least in the millenium just past. My theory is that we, as humans, must have scapegoats. Something has gone awry, a progrom will cure what ails you. The mill just closed? Lynch a black. Today, our scapegoats of choice seem to be Muslims and gays. But, there are certainly those who hold the old prejudices near and dear.
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Postby gh » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:29 am

jazzcyclist wrote:.....
A few years ago, while my mother and I were visiting the Dachau Concentration Camp, she said, "You know, the Jews suffered as much as we did." Then she corrected that statement by saying, "No, the Jews suffered worse than we did, but we suffered a lot longer." .....


Dachau has a bad name (as it should!), perhaps because the word itself has a nice evil feel to the English ear, but relatively speaking it was one of the "better" ones, meant for political prisoners more than being an extermination camp for the Jews. And there was at least one African prisoner:

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/Dachauscr ... oners.html
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Postby eldrick » Wed Nov 05, 2008 11:57 am

mike renfro wrote:The laws regarding what professions, where they could live, etc go back to at least the middle ages, and probably earlier


only time in history one group was completely expelled from a country - jews from spain in 1492
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Postby sprintblox » Wed Nov 05, 2008 12:06 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Powell wrote:No European country has racial minorities of a size similar to the US. And the significant black populations that do exist in Europe (mostly in the UK and France) are mostly composed of fairly recent immigrants.

Doesn't France have a sizeable Arab population?

Not that many of them in the typical presidential age range of 45-65 were born in France.
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Only Group Completely Expelled From a Country

Postby bijanc » Wed Nov 05, 2008 2:05 pm

"...only time in history one group was completely expelled from a country - jews from spain in 1492..."

There might be other instances. In any case, the Native American nations, while not completely expelled from this country (as in deported/barred), were eliminated. Ditto indigenous populations of Hispaniola, Cuba, Jamaica, Puerto Rico, and Canada.

Interesting that Obama's race vs. Clinton was much closer than his race vs. McCain. Little girls and boys will grow up thinking the best qualified person who mounts a strong campaign can be elected president- and not just in sci-fi films such as M. Crichton made.
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Re: Only Group Completely Expelled From a Country

Postby eldrick » Wed Nov 05, 2008 3:00 pm

bijanc wrote:"...only time in history one group was completely expelled from a country - jews from spain in 1492..."

There might be other instances. In any case, the Native American nations, while not completely expelled from this country (as in deported/barred), were eliminated. Ditto indigenous populations of Hispaniola, Cuba, Jamaica, Puerto Rico, and Canada


no comparison

jews from spain, was done in a handful of years
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Postby nickelcity » Wed Nov 05, 2008 5:38 pm

The 1972 expulsion of all Asians from Uganda.
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Re: Only Group Completely Expelled From a Country

Postby guru » Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:19 pm

bijanc wrote: Little girls and boys will grow up thinking the best qualified person who mounts a strong campaign can be elected president- and not just in sci-fi films such as M. Crichton made.



Make sure the tykes know $600 million war chests don't hurt either.
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Re: Only Group Completely Expelled From a Country

Postby mcgato » Wed Nov 05, 2008 7:30 pm

guru wrote:Make sure the tykes know $600 million war chests don't hurt either.

Note that the majority of that war chest came from those who believed he was the best candidate. It's not like he started the campaign with those funds.
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Re: Only Group Completely Expelled From a Country

Postby guru » Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:03 pm

mcgato wrote:
guru wrote:Make sure the tykes know $600 million war chests don't hurt either.

Note that the majority of that war chest came from those who believed he was the best candidate.


Indeed, let's take a look at his top believers.

University of California $909,283
Goldman Sachs $874,207
Harvard University $717,230
Microsoft Corp $714,108
Google Inc $701,099
JPMorgan Chase & Co $581,460
Citigroup Inc $581,216
National Amusements Inc $543,859
Time Warner $508,148
Sidley Austin LLP $492,445
Stanford University $481,199
Skadden, Arps et al $473,424
Wilmerhale Llp $466,679
UBS AG $454,795
Latham & Watkins $426,924
Columbia University $426,516
Morgan Stanley $425,102
IBM Corp $415,196
University of Chicago $414,555
US Government $400,819


Source: OpenSecrets.org
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Postby gm » Wed Nov 05, 2008 8:21 pm

Hey...wait... I thought I heard him say he was only gonna take public funding. I gotta get my hearing checked, cuz I know the messiah wouldn't lie :D
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Postby jazzcyclist » Wed Nov 05, 2008 9:23 pm

gm wrote:Hey...wait... I thought I heard him say he was only gonna take public funding. I gotta get my hearing checked, cuz I know the messiah wouldn't lie :D

The figures that guru provided show contributions from employees of those companies, not the companies themselves. Surely the two of you knew that didn't you? :roll:
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