First 4 minute flat mile?


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First 4 minute flat mile?

Postby runforfun » Sat Aug 30, 2008 5:52 pm

Here's a trivia question that isn't very relevant, but, I'm curious...any of you stat whiz's out there know the circumstances of the first exactly 4 minute flat mile was run? I almost wrote first 4:00.00 mile, but it may have been before electronic timing was the norm.
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Postby paulthefan » Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:37 pm

the probability is very very small.
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Postby Daisy » Sat Aug 30, 2008 6:51 pm

paulthefan wrote:the probability is very very small.


Actually i think the probability might be pretty high.

Look at pela2's site for the mile.

http://www.alltime-athletics.com/m_mileok.htm

Code: Select all
317    3:52.0     John Walker, NZL 11.07.1977
527    3:53.00    Joaquim Carvalho Cruz, BRA 13.05.1984
755    3:54.00    John Walker, NZL 27.08.1980
755    3:54.00    Steve Cram, GBR 20.09.1986
755    3:54.00+   Ismaïl Sghyr, FRA 12.07.1995
975    3:55.00    Hervé Phélippeau, FRA 06.07.1991
975    3:55.00+   Daniel Komen, KEN 01.09.1996


There are no times listed for 3:56, 57, 58, 59 or 4:00 but I imagine there is more chance at those milestones since more milers will be achieving those times.
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Postby scottmitchell74 » Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:26 pm

Seems like there's just as much chance for a 4:00.00 as there would be a 3:59.99 or 4:00.01. I can't imagine that it hasn't happened.

http://www.runningtimes.com/Article.asp ... &PageNum=2
. An exact 4:00.00 was first achieved on September 3, 1958 by England's Derek Ibbotson in a fourth-place finish behind Herb Elliott at White City.


If you trust the source/link.
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Postby catson52 » Sat Aug 30, 2008 7:39 pm

scottmitchell74 wrote:Seems like there's just as much chance for a 4:00.00 as there would be a 3:59.99 or 4:00.01. I can't imagine that it hasn't happened.

http://www.runningtimes.com/Article.asp ... &PageNum=2
. An exact 4:00.00 was first achieved on September 3, 1958 by England's Derek Ibbotson in a fourth-place finish behind Herb Elliott at White City.


If you trust the source/link.


World Sports wrote up some 45-48 years back that the correct answer to the first man to run a 4:00.0 mile was Derek Ibbotson. Didn't recall that he placed fourth in that race though. But checked it in "Runners and Races". There it is on p. 212, both Ibbotson and Mike Blagrove (fifth) were clocked in 4:00.0 on 9/3/58. (Elliott first - 3:55.4, Hewson - 3:58.9, Orywal (Poland) - 3:59.7).
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Postby Cottonshirt » Sun Aug 31, 2008 6:47 am

This is a common trivia question in this country and the usual answer is that it was Derek Ibbotson. I don't have the details to hand but I will look it up for you.


Many thanks,


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Postby mikli » Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:26 am

Ibbotson is the correct answer for 4:00.0h, but electronic 4:00.00? That is a much more difficult question. It probably has been done, not in 2005-2008, though.
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Postby Cottonshirt » Sun Aug 31, 2008 7:40 am

It was an evening floodlit meeting at the White City, London, sponsored by the Evening News (a newspaper), a match between Warsaw and London for men and women, with some international standard invites for added interest.

Herb Elliott had recently broken the world mile record and there was a lot of interest in his performance.

...after Marsden led through quarters in 59.6 and 2:00.4, Elliott took the lead at the start of the back straight and though Hewson held him until the bell, reached in 2:59.6, he ran right away when he turned the heat on over the last 300 yards to win by 25 yards in 3:55.4, a White City record.

1. H. Elliott (Australia) 3:55.4
2. B. Hewson (Mitcham AC) 3:58.9 pb
3. Z. Orywal (Warsaw) 3:59.7
4. D. Ibbotson (London) 4:00.0
5. M. Blagrove (London) 4:00.0 pb
6. S. Lewandowski (Warsaw) 4:01.7
7. G. Everett (Shettleston) 4:03.8
8. M. Berisford (Sale Harriers) 4:05.3

Warsaw won the men's match 82 points to 72, but lost the women's match 29 points to 33.

Report from AW 12.37.14


Many thanks,



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high school kids asks me who was first sub 4min 1600...

Postby wineturtle » Sun Aug 31, 2008 9:33 am

do we give gunder haggs 4:01.4 from 1945 the first sub 4 1600 or does the good dr bannister get it ?
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Re: high school kids asks me who was first sub 4min 1600...

Postby Conor Dary » Sun Aug 31, 2008 12:42 pm

wineturtle wrote:do we give gunder haggs 4:01.4 from 1945 the first sub 4 1600 or does the good dr bannister get it ?


When Hagg ran 4:01.4 his 1500 split was 3:45.4. A difference of 16.0 seconds.

16 X 100/109.36 = 14.6 seconds

14.6 + 3:45.4 =4:00.0

QED
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Postby andyjgt » Sun Aug 31, 2008 1:19 pm

I think I kinda remember Gary Lough did one in 1994 (he placed 8th in the race, I think it was a UK meet, I believe Sonia O'Sullivan broke either the world 2000 or Euro 3000 record at the same meet).
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Postby runforfun » Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:19 pm

So it is Derek Ibbotson...darn those Brits...they get all the firsts in the mile!
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Re: high school kids asks me who was first sub 4min 1600...

Postby catson52 » Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:36 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
wineturtle wrote:do we give gunder haggs 4:01.4 from 1945 the first sub 4 1600 or does the good dr bannister get it ?


When Hagg ran 4:01.4 his 1500 split was 3:45.4. A difference of 16.0 seconds.

16 X 100/109.36 = 14.6 seconds

14.6 + 3:45.4 =4:00.0

QED


I note that Hagg's time was 4:01.3, rounded up to 4:01.4. Two official watches showed 4:01.3 and one 4:01.2 (taken from Runners and Races).
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Postby paulthefan » Sun Aug 31, 2008 2:41 pm

wait a second here, what is the resolution that we are demanding for equality. Is it 1/100th second accuracy.
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Postby Cottonshirt » Tue Sep 02, 2008 10:43 am

runforfun wrote:So it is Derek Ibbotson...darn those Brits...they get all the firsts in the mile!


Well no, not really. But until quite recently I would have agreed with you.

I have for some unaccountable reason got to this point in my life under the impression that the first man to run a mile in under four minutes indoors was Ron Delaney.

I have just this week discovered that my impression is wrong. So that's one where I tip my hat to the Americans.


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Postby gh » Tue Sep 02, 2008 2:52 pm

in the early '70s I had a list of all the 4:00.0 miles ever run; as I recall, there had been about a couple of dozen at that point (I lost the list).
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Postby Cottonshirt » Tue Sep 02, 2008 9:27 pm

gh wrote:in the early '70s I had a list of all the 4:00.0 miles ever run; as I recall, there had been about a couple of dozen at that point (I lost the list).


Well, that's what lists are for...

My current list on the topic has Jim Beatty as the 19th sub 4-minute miler, and his was the 29th such mile (I had just never realised it was indoors!).

Of the sub-4 club members up to that point the most prolific was Landy with 5, Delaney and Ibbotson had three each and Bannister and Hewson had each done the deed twice. All the rest were just one each, and some of them never did it again. Even Ken Wood, who won the Emsley Carr Mile several times (and was the first to win it two years on the trot) never again broke four minutes.

So, here's a trivia question for you...

Bannister was the first, and he won his race, so he was the first man to run a 4-minute mile in first place. Landy lost to Bannister in Vancouver that summer, and so became the first man to run a 4-minute mile in second place. The next year, in May 1955, Laszlo Tabori won a 4-minute mile in London and two men followed him under the bar. The last of these, Brian Hewson, therefore became the first man to run a 4-minute mile in third place.

Who was the first man to run a 4-minute mile in 4th place?

And if that's too easy for you try this... Who has held the record as the youngest 4-minute miler in history for the shortest amount of time?
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Postby Cottonshirt » Thu Sep 04, 2008 1:56 am

gh wrote:in the early '70s I had a list of all the 4:00.0 miles ever run; as I recall, there had been about a couple of dozen at that point (I lost the list).


And this morning I discover that Delaney was not even the first European!

Which demonstrates another important feature of a list; it is a work in progress, for all I know when you said "about a couple of dozen" you might have been exactly right. Maybe I missed a few.

Anyone got a list?


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Postby Cottonshirt » Thu Sep 04, 2008 2:08 am

This is what I make the first 10.

1 3:59.4 Roger Bannister (GBR) Oxford 06-May-1954
2 3:58.0 John Landy (AUS) Turku 21-Jun-1954
3 3:59.0 Laszlo Tabori (HUN) London (WC) 28-May-1955
4 3:59.8 Christopher Chataway (GBR) London (WC) 28-May-1955
5 3:59.8 Brian Hewson (GBR) London (WC) 28-May-1955
6 3:58.6 Jim Bailey (AUS) Los Angeles, CA 05-May-1956
7 3:59.0 Ron Delaney (IRL) Compton 01-Jun-1956
8 3:59.2 Gunnar Nielsen (DEN) Compton 01-Jun-1956
9 3:59.4 Derek Ibbotson (GBR) London 06-Aug-1956
10 3:59.0 István Rózsavölgyi (HUN) 26-Aug-1956

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Postby EPelle » Thu Sep 04, 2008 5:54 am

This list is decent and surfaced here on the boards three years ago, but it hasn:t been updated since 2002.

http://easyweb.easynet.co.uk/~rsparks/sub4-dat.htm
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Postby Cottonshirt » Thu Sep 04, 2008 6:06 am

Well that's very useful, thank you.

And with Bob Sparks name on it we can assume it is reasonably accurate, although I notice he has mispelled Delaney.

Thank you very much.


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Postby gh » Thu Sep 04, 2008 7:30 am

Cottonshirt wrote:
gh wrote:in the early '70s I had a list of all the 4:00.0 miles ever run; as I recall, there had been about a couple of dozen at that point (I lost the list).


And this morning I discover that Delaney was not even the first European!

Which demonstrates another important feature of a list; it is a work in progress, for all I know when you said "about a couple of dozen" you might have been exactly right. Maybe I missed a few.

Anyone got a list?


Martin


My list was of 4:00.0 (zackly) milers, not sub-4:00 milers, since that was the premise of this whole thread.
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Postby catson52 » Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:16 am

Cottonshirt wrote:
gh wrote:in the early '70s I had a list of all the 4:00.0 miles ever run; as I recall, there had been about a couple of dozen at that point (I lost the list).


Well, that's what lists are for...

My current list on the topic has Jim Beatty as the 19th sub 4-minute miler, and his was the 29th such mile (I had just never realised it was indoors!).

Of the sub-4 club members up to that point the most prolific was Landy with 5, Delaney and Ibbotson had three each and Bannister and Hewson had each done the deed twice. All the rest were just one each, and some of them never did it again. Even Ken Wood, who won the Emsley Carr Mile several times (and was the first to win it two years on the trot) never again broke four minutes.

So, here's a trivia question for you...

Bannister was the first, and he won his race, so he was the first man to run a 4-minute mile in first place. Landy lost to Bannister in Vancouver that summer, and so became the first man to run a 4-minute mile in second place. The next year, in May 1955, Laszlo Tabori won a 4-minute mile in London and two men followed him under the bar. The last of these, Brian Hewson, therefore became the first man to run a 4-minute mile in third place.

Who was the first man to run a 4-minute mile in 4th place?

And if that's too easy for you try this... Who has held the record as the youngest 4-minute miler in history for the shortest amount of time?


In the Dublin mile in 1958, I recall about five ran sub 4:00.0. Elliott first WR, Lincoln second. I think Delaney third, Halberg fourth and I cannot recall if Albie Thomas ran sub 4. (Due to Gustav, I am joining this thread from a place other than my house - no electricity - where I have all my track stuff.)
No idea re youngest etc.
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Postby Cottonshirt » Fri Sep 05, 2008 10:35 am

catson52 wrote:Due to Gustav, I am joining this thread from a place other than my house - no electricity - where I have all my track stuff.


We all hope the weather improves considerably, and that everyone is safe and well.

As for your answer, well remembered; you're partly right and partly wrong.

Santry Stadium, Dublin, 6th August 1958

1)..3:54.5......Herb Elliott.........AUS..WR
2)..3:55.9......Mervyn Lincoln...AUS
3)..3:57.5......Ron Delaney......IRL
4)..3:57.5......Murray Halberg..NZL
5)..3:58.6......Albert Thomas...AUS

So five men beat four mintes in this race, and two of them, Halberg and Thomas, did it for the first time. Correct.

But that is not the answer to my question. In fact that is why I think it is such an interesting question, because this race is "famous" not just because of Elliott's world record but because five men broke four minutes; everyone seems to know that. But where did four men do it first?


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Postby FrankS » Fri Sep 05, 2008 11:23 pm

That would(!) be Ken Wood in the Ibbotson world record race.
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Postby Cottonshirt » Sat Sep 06, 2008 12:34 am

Correct!

White City Stadium, London, 19th July 1957

Matches at the White City in those days were often arranged to take place over two days, some teaser events on Friday evening to draw in the crowds with the rest of the match taking place on Saturday. This particular match was a dual meet incorporating a mens's match between New York and London and a women's match between London and Rome. The teaser of teasers was the invitation one mile to take place on the Friday evening, advertised in advance as an attempt on John Landy's World Record.

Mike Blagrove of Ealing went into the lead and led through the 440 in 55.3 and 880 in 1:55.8, compared to his p.b. of 1:53.5 set in May of that year. Jungwirth and Ibbotson followed him through 440 in 55.7 and 56.0 respectively. Nothing changed on the second lap with Ibbotson still three tenths behind Jungwirth in 1:56.4 with the rest of the field bunched up behind. Entering the back straight for the third time Blagrove began to drop back and at the bell Jungwirth led in three minutes exactly with Ibbotson (3:00.3) still on his tail and Lewandowski and Delaney only a few feet further back. Entering the back straight Ibbotson dashed in to the lead and drove for home with Jungwirth in full pursuit. Delaney was moving up but did not look to have his usual finish. Coming out of the bottom bend he managed to pass the tiring Czech but could make no impression on Ibbotson who set a new World Record, beating Landy's mark set over three years previously. Ken Wood closed up on Jungwirth down the home straight and broke four minutes for the first time.

1)..3:57.2.....Derek Ibbotson...........GBR WR
2)..3:58.8.....Ron Delaney..............IRL
3)..3:59.1.....Stanislaus Jungwirth..CZE
4)..3:59.3.....Ken Wood..................GBR



That just leaves one of my trivia questions un-answered...

Who has held the record as the youngest sub-4-minute miler in history, for the shortest amount of time?



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Postby LopenUupunut » Sat Sep 06, 2008 1:20 am

Cottonshirt wrote:That just leaves one of my trivia questions un-answered...

Who has held the record as the youngest sub-4-minute miler in history, for the shortest amount of time?
I guess Bob Day was the youngest ever when he broke 4min ahead of Jim Ryun? If not, then it would be László Tábori...
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Postby Cottonshirt » Sat Sep 06, 2008 2:21 am

Both of which are very good guesses, and one of them is correct. Let's see which one.

In May 1955, the record for the youngest 4-minute miler was held by John Landy (d.o.b. 12 Apr 1930) at 24:2:9 (that's 24 years, 2 months and nine days) which he set on 21 Jun 1954. Laszlo Tabori (d.o.b. 6 Jul 1931) broke 4-minutes on 28 May 1955 and brought the record down to 23:10:22 when he won a mile in 3:59.0 at London's White City stadium. Less than a second behind him in 3rd place was Brian Hewson (d.o.b. 4 Apr 1933) in 3:59.8, so the record, which Tabori has held for eight tenths of a second, comes down to 22:1:24.

The next holder was Ron Delaney (d.o.b. 6 Mar 1935) who ran his first sub 4-minute mile at Compton on 1 Jun 1956, so the record comes down to 21:2:26. Exactly one year later, Don Bowden (d.o.b. 8 Aug 1936) becomes the first American to run sub-4 at Stockton on 1 Jun 1957, and the record comes down to 20:9:24.

Less than eight months later, Herb Elliott (d.o.b. 25 Feb 1938) runs his first four minute mile on 25 Jan 1958 and the record comes down to an astonishing 19:11:0. The barrier that only four years earlier had been considered invincible is now being broken by young men barely out of school!

Dyrol Burleson (d.o.b. 27 Apr 1940) had a go at the record but was unfortunately 27 days too late, but 3:58.6 (compared to Elliott's 3:59.9) is still a remarkable achievement by one so young (19:11:27).

So we come to Compton on the 5 Jun 1964. The whole world now knows that on that day and in that place a young man, just five weeks past his seventeenth birthday, broke four minutes for the mile. Jim Ryun (d.o.b. 29 Apr 1947), after being knocked off the track on the second lap and losing about a second rejoins the race and finishes last of eight men to break four minutes in 3:59.0, only 1.6 seconds behind Burleson the winner.

In doing so, Ryun becomes the 48th sub 4-minute miler in history, and the youngest, at 17:1:7.

Just ahead of Ryun, in 6th place, is Robert "Bob" Day (d.o.b. 31 Oct 1944) making him, at 19:7:5, momentarily, the youngest 4-minute miler in history, knocking four and a half months off Elliott's record. Day's time was 3:58.9, which means he held that record for precisely one tenth of a second, and he is therefore the person who held the record as the youngest 4-minute miler in history, for the shortest period of time.



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Re: First 4 minute flat mile?

Postby gh » Sat Feb 09, 2013 4:37 pm

We had a 4:00.00 today, but a quick google turned up somebody who had done it earlier (no idea if he was the first).

http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/south-afri ... n-magagane
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Re: First 4 minute flat mile?

Postby Brian » Sat Feb 09, 2013 10:45 pm

If (faulty) memory serves, I seem to remember Ovett doing just that early in his career.

[Maybe Coe? My God, those two are forever linked in one's head-!]

I don't have access to my copy of Ovett's biography--which has a list in the appendix--handy right now. It's in a part of the house I keep closed off in the Winter (for heating purposes).

If you folks can wait until late May/early June...?

[This *IS* Minnesota.]
:]
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Re: First 4 minute flat mile?

Postby aaronk » Sun Feb 10, 2013 4:08 am

wineturtle wrote:do we give gunder haggs 4:01.4 from 1945 the first sub 4 1600 or does the good dr bannister get it ?


According to a VERY reliable source.....
the first sub-4:00 was in......
a race 1597.34 meters long.

It was deemed "official" by the....

NO BRAIN STATISTICIANS ASSOCIATION of TRANSYLVANIA!!

:P :P
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Re: First 4 minute flat mile?

Postby 18.99s » Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:04 am

gh wrote:We had a 4:00.00 today, but a quick google turned up somebody who had done it earlier (no idea if he was the first).

http://www.iaaf.org/athletes/south-afri ... n-magagane


He's just 26, so there's a good chance he'll eventually run sub-4.

But is there anybody who ran a 4:00.00 PR and retired without ever running sub-4?

Or worse, 4:00.01? At least the 4:00.00 guy can genuinely say he ran a 4-minute mile.
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Re: First 4 minute flat mile?

Postby 26mi235 » Sun Feb 10, 2013 10:42 am

The recorded time in that 4:00.00 was most likely 3:59.99x (90%), so, it is likely that he could say that he ran the mile faster than that (of course, his reaction time was at least 0.2 so his running time for the mile was under four. Of course, we all 'know' this.
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Re:

Postby Halfmiler2 » Sun Feb 10, 2013 2:26 pm

Cottonshirt wrote:It was an evening floodlit meeting at the White City, London, sponsored by the Evening News (a newspaper), a match between Warsaw and London for men and women, with some international standard invites for added interest.

Herb Elliott had recently broken the world mile record and there was a lot of interest in his performance.

...after Marsden led through quarters in 59.6 and 2:00.4, Elliott took the lead at the start of the back straight and though Hewson held him until the bell, reached in 2:59.6, he ran right away when he turned the heat on over the last 300 yards to win by 25 yards in 3:55.4, a White City record.

1. H. Elliott (Australia) 3:55.4
2. B. Hewson (Mitcham AC) 3:58.9 pb
3. Z. Orywal (Warsaw) 3:59.7
4. D. Ibbotson (London) 4:00.0
5. M. Blagrove (London) 4:00.0 pb
6. S. Lewandowski (Warsaw) 4:01.7
7. G. Everett (Shettleston) 4:03.8
8. M. Berisford (Sale Harriers) 4:05.3

Warsaw won the men's match 82 points to 72, but lost the women's match 29 points to 33.

Report from AW 12.37.14


Many thanks,



Martin


So Blagrove did it too - or is that a misprint?
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Re: First 4 minute flat mile?

Postby AS » Sun Feb 10, 2013 8:11 pm

What about running 4.00.00 or 4.00.0 exactly on debut?

Aussie Miler (@Villanova) Jordan Williamsz ran his first ever mile on weekend, but fell a tiny bit short: 4.00.12i
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Re: Re:

Postby gh » Sun Feb 10, 2013 9:45 pm

Halfmiler2 wrote:
Cottonshirt wrote:It was an evening floodlit meeting at the White City, London, sponsored by the Evening News (a newspaper), a match between Warsaw and London for men and women, with some international standard invites for added interest.

Herb Elliott had recently broken the world mile record and there was a lot of interest in his performance.

...after Marsden led through quarters in 59.6 and 2:00.4, Elliott took the lead at the start of the back straight and though Hewson held him until the bell, reached in 2:59.6, he ran right away when he turned the heat on over the last 300 yards to win by 25 yards in 3:55.4, a White City record.

1. H. Elliott (Australia) 3:55.4
2. B. Hewson (Mitcham AC) 3:58.9 pb
3. Z. Orywal (Warsaw) 3:59.7
4. D. Ibbotson (London) 4:00.0
5. M. Blagrove (London) 4:00.0 pb
6. S. Lewandowski (Warsaw) 4:01.7
7. G. Everett (Shettleston) 4:03.8
8. M. Berisford (Sale Harriers) 4:05.3

Warsaw won the men's match 82 points to 72, but lost the women's match 29 points to 33.

Report from AW 12.37.14


Many thanks,



Martin


So Blagrove did it too - or is that a misprint?


Blagrove becomes the answer to a wondrous trivia question, yes.
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Re: First 4 minute flat mile?

Postby 26mi235 » Mon Feb 11, 2013 10:24 am

The official reading was apparently 3:59.998, which of course goes in the books as a 4:00.00.
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Re: Re:

Postby Halfmiler2 » Thu Feb 14, 2013 5:51 pm

gh wrote:
Halfmiler2 wrote:
Cottonshirt wrote:It was an evening floodlit meeting at the White City, London, sponsored by the Evening News (a newspaper), a match between Warsaw and London for men and women, with some international standard invites for added interest.

Herb Elliott had recently broken the world mile record and there was a lot of interest in his performance.

...after Marsden led through quarters in 59.6 and 2:00.4, Elliott took the lead at the start of the back straight and though Hewson held him until the bell, reached in 2:59.6, he ran right away when he turned the heat on over the last 300 yards to win by 25 yards in 3:55.4, a White City record.

1. H. Elliott (Australia) 3:55.4
2. B. Hewson (Mitcham AC) 3:58.9 pb
3. Z. Orywal (Warsaw) 3:59.7
4. D. Ibbotson (London) 4:00.0
5. M. Blagrove (London) 4:00.0 pb
6. S. Lewandowski (Warsaw) 4:01.7
7. G. Everett (Shettleston) 4:03.8
8. M. Berisford (Sale Harriers) 4:05.3

Warsaw won the men's match 82 points to 72, but lost the women's match 29 points to 33.

Report from AW 12.37.14


Many thanks,



Martin


So Blagrove did it too - or is that a misprint?


Blagrove becomes the answer to a wondrous trivia question, yes.


Anyone know much else about Blagrove since he is before my time? I knew of Ibbotson.
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