more trouble in Russia


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Postby Tiago » Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:32 am

lapsus wrote:
Tiago wrote:
What cases?i only see athletics. :? ....Gusev run for Astana,case closed.
Alifirenko have the eye injurie to justify the use of the drug but and as far i remember this is the first time a russian shooter is tested positive.

Btw,Hardy has tested positive,so is the all usa swimming team doped? :?


Russia have a problem with the athletics,the rest are normal doping cases as in any other countrie.


I should have been more specific: I meant the 7 women athletes (+ the 3 walkers). The nature of the first bust was unusual in that they didn't all seem to be part of the same training group.

I don't mean it is state-sponsored doping; I don't want to kick Russia out of the games. But I would like to see some serious investigation of non-athletes involved in this. Reassign them to Siberia or something...


It is a athletics problem.

Ok,you have doping cases in Weightlifting but no one is clear there as in cyclism.

As for the athletics this is my opinion:

In the runners only borzakovsky seems clean,the female better not to talk.
Jumpers,they are all clean
Throwers,well the hammer top throwers were all suspende so it is a doping system there,the discus the same thing.
Race walkers,Nizhegorodov and Kaniskina are clean and only they can lose the gold medal.

So

Borzakovsky
Slinov
Rybakov
Lukyanenko
Nizhegorodov
Lebedeva
Isynbayeva
Slesarenko
Kaniskina

9 clean medals...then of course comes Sadova,Samitova,Petrova,Andrianova.

15-20 medals for russia in the end,it couyld be 30 at full squad. :(


Wrestling realy needs to come big as boxing to top the medal table. :D

Ah,and female weighlifting. 8-) :lol:
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Postby EPelle » Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:35 am

gosh, I:ll have to repeat myself:

ti hoces stobi tebia ot siuda vignali?
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Postby elcaballo » Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:55 am

gh wrote:
Matt wrote:Didn't Hazel Clark have a warning for something or other? Pseudoephedrine? I can't say for sure.


Yes, pseudo, which has subsequently been removed from the banned list (common in cold medications like Sudafed). Came off at the same time caffeine did.

Any lumping of people who fell afoul of cold-medication rules (before the WADAs got their heads together) with true druggies is very unfair.


Whilst that's true to an extent, everyone knew it was banned and that it was common in cold medications so it was pretty dumb to be taking it during competiition. I also know of plenty of athletes that used it to pep themselves up for training sessions out of season (when it wasn't tested for), was supposed to speed up metabolism as well to help with gettting rid of body fat.

The ones I truly feel sorry for are guys like john capel that have been done for the performance enhancing wonder drug, cannabis.
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Postby croflash » Fri Aug 08, 2008 2:03 am

The next one...

RUSSIA'S 3000m steeplechaser Roman Usov has been kicked out of the Olympic team after failing a drugs test.

The 30-year-old tested positive for the banned subtance Carphedon at the national championships at Kazan last month where he finished second, local press reported.

Russian Athletics Federation officials refused to comment before Usov's B sample had been tested but confirmed he was expelled from the Olympic squad.


http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/be ... 97,00.html
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Postby Tiago » Fri Aug 08, 2008 7:50 am

Yeah,the russian media confirm this.

What a disgrace,11 positive cases in the last week. :lol:
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Postby MJR » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:07 am

Other teams have been kicked out & sent home for less. What is the IOC waiting for?
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Postby Daisy » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:08 am

MJR wrote:Other teams have been kicked out & sent home for less.


Really? The whole team, or just one sport from a team?
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Postby 26mi235 » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:14 am

Daisy wrote:
MJR wrote:Other teams have been kicked out & sent home for less.


Really? The whole team, or just one sport from a team?


He said teams, not countries; I interpret teams as sports within a country. Several wrestling and/or weight lifting teams have gotten into trouble, if I recall correctly. I cannot remember if they were not allowed or if they were actually kicked out during the Games.
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Postby Jaack » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:20 am

MJR wrote:Other teams have been kicked out & sent home for less. What is the IOC waiting for?
As sad as it would be to see Isi and Lebedeva miss the games, HOW can the Russian track team compete with any sort of pride?

11 athletes is just too many at this point.

The team should be pulled.
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Postby Tiago » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:22 am

MJR wrote:Other teams have been kicked out & sent home for less. What is the IOC waiting for?



The 11 athletes were doped they were suspended or disqualified.....they didn't went to Beijing.

What is the big deal? :?

If any Russia is doped in Beijing he will be caught.

Now a all team suspended?for what?
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Postby Tiago » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:26 am

Jaack wrote:
MJR wrote:Other teams have been kicked out & sent home for less. What is the IOC waiting for?
As sad as it would be to see Isi and Lebedeva miss the games, HOW can the Russian track team compete with any sort of pride?

11 athletes is just too many at this point.

The team should be pulled.


Come on,Rusia is invading Georgia and the ioc says nothing, and now you are worried about the Russian athletic team,if they have doped athletes in Beijing worst for them.
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Postby lalala » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:32 am

Of course they should kick the whole team off...11 athletes in a week ? This is getting farcical...
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Postby Jaack » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:32 am

Tiago wrote:[

If any Russia is doped in Beijing he will be caught.

:
If you believe that, you are an IDIOT! How many Olympic champions have been doped and provided a clean drugs test? Dozens upon dozens!
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Postby 26mi235 » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:36 am

Tiago wrote:
Jaack wrote:
MJR wrote:Other teams have been kicked out & sent home for less. What is the IOC waiting for?
As sad as it would be to see Isi and Lebedeva miss the games, HOW can the Russian track team compete with any sort of pride?

11 athletes is just too many at this point.

The team should be pulled.


Come on,Rusia is invading Georgia and the ioc says nothing, and now you are worried about the Russian athletic team,if they have doped athletes in Beijing worst for them.


I think that the reason is quite clear. If the kick the whole team out of the Games then the powers that be in Russia will be much more protective of their resource, which either means making sure that the doping is not detected (apparently that is not working) or put a lot more pressure to not dope. It would be a disaster for those that run the sport in Russia and if they have a hand in this (i.e., if the doping is 'systematic') then they deserve to be kicked out at some point. Have we reached that point with Russia? Quite possibly, or at least they are getting close. I suspect that there has been some communication with Russia about the consequences.

On a sinister note, betting interests might try to knock out lead contenders to make money, so getting systematic might mean something not identical to just the number of positives. Note, however, that the sample-switching episode tends to fit into to 'systematic' category.
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Postby EPelle » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:41 am

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Last edited by EPelle on Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:42 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Tiago » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:41 am

Jaack wrote:
Tiago wrote:[

If any Russia is doped in Beijing he will be caught.

:
If you believe that, you are an IDIOT! How many Olympic champions have been doped and provided a clean drugs test? Dozens upon dozens!


So what's the fuss about Russia?....well they are been caught no?usov was test in the russian champ not by a iaaf investigation.

Let face it,Athletics is as doped as Cyclism or Swimming.

No one is clean.....good for the chinese that they suck in Athletics..
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Postby Tiago » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:45 am

26mi235 wrote:
Tiago wrote:
Jaack wrote:
MJR wrote:Other teams have been kicked out & sent home for less. What is the IOC waiting for?
As sad as it would be to see Isi and Lebedeva miss the games, HOW can the Russian track team compete with any sort of pride?

11 athletes is just too many at this point.

The team should be pulled.


Come on,Rusia is invading Georgia and the ioc says nothing, and now you are worried about the Russian athletic team,if they have doped athletes in Beijing worst for them.


I think that the reason is quite clear. If the kick the whole team out of the Games then the powers that be in Russia will be much more protective of their resource, which either means making sure that the doping is not detected (apparently that is not working) or put a lot more pressure to not dope. It would be a disaster for those that run the sport in Russia and if they have a hand in this (i.e., if the doping is 'systematic') then they deserve to be kicked out at some point. Have we reached that point with Russia? Quite possibly, or at least they are getting close. I suspect that there has been some communication with Russia about the consequences.

On a sinister note, betting interests might try to knock out lead contenders to make money, so getting systematic might mean something not identical to just the number of positives. Note, however, that the sample-switching episode tends to fit into to 'systematic' category.


It makes no sense to kick out an all team....this is individual sport.
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Postby MJR » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:48 am

Tiago wrote:It makes no sense to kick out an all team....this is individual sport.


then just kick out all the individuals that wear the russian uniform :twisted:
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Postby Tiago » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:52 am

MJR wrote:
Tiago wrote:It makes no sense to kick out an all team....this is individual sport.


then just kick out all the individuals that wear the russian uniform :twisted:


Like someone said in a russia forum

So what?we have ten doping cases,let it be....
I prefer to win a gold medal with 20 athletes doped,then all team clean and zero medals.

This summarize the situation,case closed. :)
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Postby 26mi235 » Fri Aug 08, 2008 8:58 am

Tiago wrote:
26mi235 wrote:
Tiago wrote:
Jaack wrote:
MJR wrote:Other teams have been kicked out & sent home for less. What is the IOC waiting for?
As sad as it would be to see Isi and Lebedeva miss the games, HOW can the Russian track team compete with any sort of pride?

11 athletes is just too many at this point.

The team should be pulled.


Come on,Rusia is invading Georgia and the ioc says nothing, and now you are worried about the Russian athletic team,if they have doped athletes in Beijing worst for them.


I think that the reason is quite clear. If the kick the whole team out of the Games then the powers that be in Russia will be much more protective of their resource, which either means making sure that the doping is not detected (apparently that is not working) or put a lot more pressure to not dope. It would be a disaster for those that run the sport in Russia and if they have a hand in this (i.e., if the doping is 'systematic') then they deserve to be kicked out at some point. Have we reached that point with Russia? Quite possibly, or at least they are getting close. I suspect that there has been some communication with Russia about the consequences.

On a sinister note, betting interests might try to knock out lead contenders to make money, so getting systematic might mean something not identical to just the number of positives. Note, however, that the sample-switching episode tends to fit into to 'systematic' category.


It makes no sense to kick out an all team....this is individual sport.


I just gave you a reason for kicking the team off. The sport is not run as 20000 different groups, one for each athlete. There is a federation at the top and if it looks like there is organized doping or lack of systematic attempt to stop dopping, and Russia fits some of the characteristics, like requiring a Visa, then the federation is responsible. Kicking out only those that test positive when they are not doing their job adequately is rewarding those that have the power and resources to do the job.
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Postby Tiago » Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:19 am

26mi235 wrote:
Tiago wrote:
26mi235 wrote:
Tiago wrote:
Jaack wrote:
MJR wrote:Other teams have been kicked out & sent home for less. What is the IOC waiting for?
As sad as it would be to see Isi and Lebedeva miss the games, HOW can the Russian track team compete with any sort of pride?

11 athletes is just too many at this point.

The team should be pulled.


Come on,Rusia is invading Georgia and the ioc says nothing, and now you are worried about the Russian athletic team,if they have doped athletes in Beijing worst for them.


I think that the reason is quite clear. If the kick the whole team out of the Games then the powers that be in Russia will be much more protective of their resource, which either means making sure that the doping is not detected (apparently that is not working) or put a lot more pressure to not dope. It would be a disaster for those that run the sport in Russia and if they have a hand in this (i.e., if the doping is 'systematic') then they deserve to be kicked out at some point. Have we reached that point with Russia? Quite possibly, or at least they are getting close. I suspect that there has been some communication with Russia about the consequences.

On a sinister note, betting interests might try to knock out lead contenders to make money, so getting systematic might mean something not identical to just the number of positives. Note, however, that the sample-switching episode tends to fit into to 'systematic' category.


It makes no sense to kick out an all team....this is individual sport.


I just gave you a reason for kicking the team off. The sport is not run as 20000 different groups, one for each athlete. There is a federation at the top and if it looks like there is organized doping or lack of systematic attempt to stop dopping, and Russia fits some of the characteristics, like requiring a Visa, then the federation is responsible. Kicking out only those that test positive when they are not doing their job adequately is rewarding those that have the power and resources to do the job.


Didn't Iaaf gave the world champions 2013 to Balakhnichev?isn't Balakhnichev one of the most important figures in the iaaf?

The race walkers and usov dope cases were detected by Russia,
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Postby Powell » Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:07 am

MJR wrote:Other teams have been kicked out & sent home for less.


Which teams? When?
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Postby lalala » Fri Aug 08, 2008 10:59 am

Anyone else notice the BBC are using footage of Tomashova as part of their advert for the interactive service ?

OOOPS :lol:
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Postby gh » Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:15 am

Tiago wrote:...
Didn't Iaaf gave the world champions 2013 to Balakhnichev?isn't Balakhnichev one of the most important figures in the iaaf?...,


No, the IAAF gave the '13 WC to the Russian Federation. As a first-year Council member, I would guess that Balakhnichev is not one of the most important figures in the IAAF.

Unless of course he's also the president of the Russian bank that was behind the winning bid!
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Postby Bruno » Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:16 am

[quote="Tiago"][quote="lapsus"][quote="Tiago"]

Race walkers,Nizhegorodov and Kaniskina are clean and only they can lose the gold medal.

So

Borzakovsky
Slinov
Rybakov
Lukyanenko
Nizhegorodov
Lebedeva
Isynbayeva
Slesarenko
Kaniskina

9 clean medals...then of course comes Sadova,Samitova,Petrova,Andrianova.

15-20 medals for russia in the end,it couyld be 30 at full squad. :(
[/quote]

Well, Tiago, do not discard the chances of Chernova, Volkova, Borchin, Guschina, Chicherova, Feofanova, Sibileva and the 4x400 m (W)... or even Abakumova... In an ideal competition, Russia could still get close to 30...

To all of those suggesting Russia's athletics team should be kicked out of Beijing, please... Inocent people should never pay for the guilty ones. You cannot seriously believe all 105 of the current squad are doped...??

Imagine if Jamaica's sprinting (100-200 m, M & W) clan was found with steroids... Would you send the entire team home??

Is it just because this is powerful, once dominant Russia? Would you like to have a "walk in the park" like in LA 1984? In a sport where we have all gotten use to the worst ever since Ben Johnson's case in 1988, what is the point of being so moralistic?? We all know there is a LOT of drugs in our sport! (Look at all US 400 m runners that have retrospectively been DQed...) Lets just DQ the ones found guilty and, as in LAW, presume the INNOCENCE of those never caught!

Cheers,
Bruno.
(My first post! - Hi everyone...)
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Postby lalala » Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:29 am

Bruno wrote:
To all of those suggesting Russia's athletics team should be kicked out of Beijing, please... Inocent people should never pay for the guilty ones. You cannot seriously believe all 105 of the current squad are doped...??


Absolutely not, but it is an effective deterrent and which is why it has been used in other sports- I fail to see why athletics is any different

Imagine if Jamaica's sprinting (100-200 m, M & W) clan was found with steroids... Would you send the entire team home??


Yes, yes I would ! If it was on the same en masse scale. I still think the US got off lightly thanks to the Balco stuff but to be honest, it was all connected (mostly) to a couple of training groups- this Russian fiasco seems to be completely unrelated athletes who are being warned about drug testing- either thanks to a country's visa policies and a leak there or something more sinister and higher up...
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Postby Tiago » Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:57 am

Bruno wrote:
Tiago wrote:
lapsus wrote:
Tiago wrote:
Race walkers,Nizhegorodov and Kaniskina are clean and only they can lose the gold medal.

So

Borzakovsky
Slinov
Rybakov
Lukyanenko
Nizhegorodov
Lebedeva
Isynbayeva
Slesarenko
Kaniskina

9 clean medals...then of course comes Sadova,Samitova,Petrova,Andrianova.

15-20 medals for russia in the end,it couyld be 30 at full squad. :(


Well, Tiago, do not discard the chances of Chernova, Volkova, Borchin, Guschina, Chicherova, Feofanova, Sibileva and the 4x400 m (W)... or even Abakumova... In an ideal competition, Russia could still get close to 30...

To all of those suggesting Russia's athletics team should be kicked out of Beijing, please... Inocent people should never pay for the guilty ones. You cannot seriously believe all 105 of the current squad are doped...??

Imagine if Jamaica's sprinting (100-200 m, M & W) clan was found with steroids... Would you send the entire team home??

Is it just because this is powerful, once dominant Russia? Would you like to have a "walk in the park" like in LA 1984? In a sport where we have all gotten use to the worst ever since Ben Johnson's case in 1988, what is the point of being so moralistic?? We all know there is a LOT of drugs in our sport! (Look at all US 400 m runners that have retrospectively been DQed...) Lets just DQ the ones found guilty and, as in LAW, presume the INNOCENCE of those never caught!

Cheers,
Bruno.
(My first post! - Hi everyone...)


Yeah,i agree.

Looks like Iaaf doesn't have any suspicious about the rest of russian delegation.........

But Russia neds to clean their athletic federation after the olympics.
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Postby BruceFlorman » Fri Aug 08, 2008 4:58 pm

If you folks are so comfortable heading down the slippery slope of punishing the innocent, why not just take it a step further? Let's have the IOC toss out the whole stinkin' mess of T&F/Athletics for a few years! It's obvious that the whole sport's dirty, and while people can't help what country they were born in, they do have a choice about what sport they take up. So while we're throwing out the Russians, let's get rid of the Greeks, Americans, Australians, English, Irish, Portugese and Swedes too! That ought to convince the IAAF to get serious about getting its house in order. :roll:
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Postby Kurt Francis » Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:01 pm

BruceFlorman wrote:If you folks are so comfortable heading down the slippery slope of punishing the innocent, why not just take it a step further? Let's have the IOC toss out the whole stinkin' mess of T&F/Athletics for a few years! It's obvious that the whole sport's dirty, and while people can't help what country they were born in, they do have a choice about what sport they take up. So while we're throwing out the Russians, let's get rid of the Greeks, Americans, Australians, English, Irish, Portugese and Swedes too! That ought to convince the IAAF to get serious about getting its house in order. :roll:


Thank you, Bruce, for your bit of sanity here.

As far as I'm concerned, throw out the Brits and the Canucks FIRST! They seem to have the most hatred towards the Russians! People who are so vindictive must be guilty themselves!!! :x
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Postby Steeplechaser » Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:07 pm

Kurt Francis wrote:
BruceFlorman wrote:If you folks are so comfortable heading down the slippery slope of punishing the innocent, why not just take it a step further? Let's have the IOC toss out the whole stinkin' mess of T&F/Athletics for a few years! It's obvious that the whole sport's dirty, and while people can't help what country they were born in, they do have a choice about what sport they take up. So while we're throwing out the Russians, let's get rid of the Greeks, Americans, Australians, English, Irish, Portugese and Swedes too! That ought to convince the IAAF to get serious about getting its house in order. :roll:


Thank you, Bruce, for your bit of sanity here.

As far as I'm concerned, throw out the Brits and the Canucks FIRST! They seem to have the most hatred towards the Russians! People who are so vindictive must be guilty themselves!!! :x


And your evidence for this is....?
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Postby Mennisco » Fri Aug 08, 2008 5:12 pm

Lots of smug people here calling for the Russian team to be kicked out. And just how many dirty soot-covered little polluters are running for their countries?

Image

Didn't catch 11? Too bad.......
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Postby imaginative » Fri Aug 08, 2008 9:10 pm

Apart from the risk of punishing innocents there is a pragmatical
consideration:

If e.g. the russians are thrown out as a group (without conclusive
evidence of organized cheating), we risk another boycott game in 2012.
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Postby Half Miler » Sat Aug 09, 2008 2:34 am

Well, the whole Olympic angle aside, this is just depressing.

I feel like all Russian marks made over the last few years now may have some measure of doubt cast about them. I have a few favorite athletes that I just don't want to have doubts about, so this really sucks.

Surely other athletes/coaches/teams/federations are employing similar strategies as we speak.

Just reminds me how the fragile ideals of T&F continue to be torn away.
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Postby EPelle » Sat Aug 09, 2008 3:45 am

Problems in Russia solved. USA comes to rescue.

Image
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Postby George P. » Sat Aug 09, 2008 4:49 am

Half Miler wrote:Well, the whole Olympic angle aside, this is just depressing.

You can say that again. Things aren't going so swimmingly here in South Ossetia either.

MOSCOW, Aug. 8 -- Russia launched airstrikes Friday deep inside Georgia and mobilized columns of tanks after Georgian forces embarked on a major offensive ...
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Postby Mennisco » Sat Aug 09, 2008 4:53 am

I wonder if Putin was wearing a particular diamond ring yesterday....
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Postby nevetsllim » Sat Aug 09, 2008 8:32 pm

Apparently javelin thrower Lada Chernova tested positive too.
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Postby Magedd » Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:32 pm

Yeah. That weird. I didn't even hear about it until today, although it was on the news when that steeplechaser got caught. Maybe because she hadn't qualified to the olympics. There aren't so many javerin trowers caught lately (or thay haven't been that good and therefore haven't heard of them). This is bad.
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Postby nevetsllim » Sat Aug 09, 2008 10:58 pm

Neither did I - it's quite weird because I think more people have heard of Chernova, compared to the Russian steeplechaser.
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