Another TdF, EDIT- 3 dopers and counting!


This Forum was created to divert traffic from Current Events at the height of the BALCO scandal. It comes and goes as "needed"; it's back to being locked.

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Jul 19, 2008 8:52 pm

Pego wrote:I maintain that such PED activities have no place in criminal proceedings. Sport authorities should deal with them, not courts of law.

Tonight on Versus I heard Bob Roll say that in France, the use of PED's is a misdemeanor, except in the Tour de France where it is a felony. This may sound crazy, but we do live in a country that holds congressional hearings to investigate steroids in baseball, and let's not forget Arlen Specter and Spygate.
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Postby DrJay » Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:05 am

bambam wrote:So there - I finally admitted that to more than just a few isolated people.


We still love you.

I'm reading "Ball Four" for the first time. Taking amphetamines was about like taking some ibuprofen for those guys.
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Postby bambam » Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:45 am

DrJay wrote:
bambam wrote:So there - I finally admitted that to more than just a few isolated people.


We still love you.

I'm reading "Ball Four" for the first time. Taking amphetamines was about like taking some ibuprofen for those guys.


The funniest sports book ever written. You'll enjoy it a very fun read.
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Postby Conor Dary » Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:31 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Pego wrote:I maintain that such PED activities have no place in criminal proceedings. Sport authorities should deal with them, not courts of law.

Tonight on Versus I heard Bob Roll say that in France, the use of PED's is a misdemeanor, except in the Tour de France where it is a felony. This may sound crazy, but we do live in a country that holds congressional hearings to investigate steroids in baseball, and let's not forget Arlen Specter and Spygate.


Not surprising at all the French would make it a felony. The Tour is a big economic boom for them and take great pride in it. So when riders come along and disgrace it to the world, you can bet they are going to bring the hammer down.

By the way, I have watched it live every day and it has been a great race so far.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:04 am

Conor Dary wrote:By the way, I have watched it live every day and it has been a great race so far.

If watched it this morning, one thing I think we'll agree on is that the Tour de France is the world's most beautiful sporting venue. By the way, who do you pick to win?
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Postby Jnathletics » Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:00 pm

Current top ten:
1. SCHLECK Frank 17 TEAM CSC SAXO BANK 63h 57' 21"
2. KOHL Bernhard 115 GEROLSTEINER 63h 57' 28" + 00' 07"
3. EVANS Cadel 1 SILENCE - LOTTO 63h 57' 29" + 00' 08"
4. MENCHOV Denis 131 RABOBANK 63h 57' 59" + 00' 38"
5. VANDEVELDE Christian 191 GARMIN CHIPOTLE 63h 58' 00" + 00' 39"
6. SASTRE Carlos 11 TEAM CSC SAXO BANK 63h 58' 10" + 00' 49"
7. KIRCHEN Kim 41 TEAM COLUMBIA 64h 00' 09" + 02' 48"
8. EFIMKIN Vladimir 104 AG2R-LA MONDIALE 64h 00' 57" + 03' 36"
9. VALVERDE Alejandro 31 CAISSE D’EPARGNE 64h 01' 32" + 04' 11"
10. SANCHEZ Samuel 27 EUSKALTEL - EUSKADI 64h 01' 55" + 04' 34"


But with two mountain stages and a time trial left, it looks to be an exciting finish.
Kohl -0:47, Menchov -0:27, Schleck -0:09, over Evans today. Can they put enough distance between themselves and Evans before the final TT is the question.

Evans in the first TT was 2nd, 16 seconds ahead of Menchov while +1:56 Schleck and +1:29 Kohl (Vandevelde +0:19 and Sastre +1:25). To note the 1st TT was almost half the distance the 2nd TT will be, plus the 2nd will have some hills to it. So, a lot more time can be made up by a good TT'er.

IMHO it's an Evans vs Menchov race currently with the final TT looming. But we will have to see what the climbers can do on Tuesday and Wednesday. Five more "HC" catagory climbs over two days with the last being a mountain top finish on Wednesday. (HC = Beyond Catagory climb, so tough that it's beyond the rating system for a climb.) So, plenty of chances for Kohl, Schleck, Sastre and even Valverde to put time in on the TT fav's.
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Postby Conor Dary » Sun Jul 20, 2008 12:14 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:By the way, I have watched it live every day and it has been a great race so far.

If watched it this morning, one thing I think we'll agree on is that the Tour de France is the world's most beautiful sporting venue. By the way, who do you pick to win?


It is great to watch with the wonderful vistas, and superb drama. It really exciting to watch the peloton swoop down on the the leaders in the last few kilometers. As to who will win, until today, I would have bet on Evans. But, he looked a bit off at the end. He still is my favorite, however, in the next two days after the rest day, he will have to do better or the TT won't matter.
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Postby 26mi235 » Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:54 am

Two things, one on the PEDs and one on the race:

Menchov should be the favorite except for Menchov -- he is not as good a rider technically as the others. In an earlier stage he missed a split that he should not have missed and had to push his team very hard to lose only 38 seconds (I think that is the right number). Then, in an attack that might well have changed the race a lot he crashed because he did not manage the terrain/road. He had a big gap very quickly and it was much further down the mountain with enough time to make for big gaps; he finally got some gap but later and with the after-effects of the fall hurting him some.

It would seem the he and Evans have the combination of climbing ability and experience in racing Grand Tours. However, with so many in the top minute and with three of them climbers, I think that no one is going to 'win' the Tour over the next two days but that several riders are going to 'lose' the Tour, and the E/M/VdV trio are the most likely to lose it with the trio of Alp stages taking a toll on the ability to stay with the climbers.


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/jul08/jul21news2

One the PEDs side, the French testing agency is the one catching the CEREA/generation 3 EPO. It seems like they are less constrained by the technical protocol -- the new EPO has a different signature and is not being declared 'positive' by the official WADA criteria even though it is detected. Maybe the tests results will be over-ruled later but the riders will have been tossed and disgraced and it seems likely that no major team will pick up these riders again. Further, since the test criteria can be enhanced after-the-fact (as with The Clear) it will probably pass muster eventually. In the piece below, it says that the authorities are 'sitting on' some samples that are the new EPO but that the test do not yet classify them as +. Do others here agree with my guess that these might eventually be ruled + by enhanced criteria.

"A report by the BBC has claimed that (WADA) is failing to catch a large number of athletes using EPO due to a flawed criteria by which samples are declared positive. The report also highlights the growing problem of bio-similar EPOs - those which have a slightly different molecular fingerprint to regular EPO and therefore may not produce a positive sample under WADA's current criteria.

According to Dr Rasmus Damsgaard, an anti-doping expert who oversees the internal testing programs for both CSC-Saxo Bank and Astana, WADA laboratories are sitting on "a mountain of positive EPO" from athletes that have not failed a test. Dr Damsgaard inspected the electronic profiles, or gels as they are known, of five samples declared negative by a WADA laboratory, and said they showed clear signs of EPO being present.

"It was very obvious that the gels were very un-natural or very different from natural distributions," Damsgaard told the BBC. "But I also saw that they were declared negative because they didn't fulfil the WADA criteria of a positive test; although they looked suspicious and had no natural bands at all, they were still declared negative."
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Postby Jnathletics » Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:51 am

26mi235 wrote:Two things, one on the PEDs and one on the race:

Menchov should be the favorite except for Menchov -- he is not as good a rider technically as the others. In an earlier stage he missed a split that he should not have missed and had to push his team very hard to lose only 38 seconds (I think that is the right number). ...


I think your talking about this.
Crash Splits Peloton
With about 26km to go there was a crash in the peloton. Gomez (SDV) was the worst affected but Sprick (BTL) and Sorensen (CSC) also came down. It prompted a split in the peloton. Menchov (RAB) and Ricco (SDV) were in the second group. Quickstep teamed up at the front of the first group to set a furious tempo. With 20km to go, Frischkorn, Dumoulin, Feillu and Longo Borghini led the yellow jersey’s peloton by 4’10” and Menchov’s group (which also included Ricco) by 4’35”.


I guess it's bad tactics not always staying at the front of the peloton, but it's more bad luck to get stuck behind one of those bad crashes. Especially at the end of a stage where the peloton is going so fast that it's hard to catch back up.
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Postby 26mi235 » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:06 am

Jnathletics wrote:
26mi235 wrote:Two things, one on the PEDs and one on the race:

Menchov should be the favorite except for Menchov -- he is not as good a rider technically as the others. In an earlier stage he missed a split that he should not have missed and had to push his team very hard to lose only 38 seconds (I think that is the right number). ...


I think your talking about this.
Crash Splits Peloton
With about 26km to go there was a crash in the peloton. Gomez (SDV) was the worst affected but Sprick (BTL) and Sorensen (CSC) also came down. It prompted a split in the peloton. Menchov (RAB) and Ricco (SDV) were in the second group. Quickstep teamed up at the front of the first group to set a furious tempo. With 20km to go, Frischkorn, Dumoulin, Feillu and Longo Borghini led the yellow jersey’s peloton by 4’10” and Menchov’s group (which also included Ricco) by 4’35”.


I guess it's bad tactics not always staying at the front of the peloton, but it's more bad luck to get stuck behind one of those bad crashes. Especially at the end of a stage where the peloton is going so fast that it's hard to catch back up.


You make your luck. Armstrong may or may not have used PEDs but across his seven wins he essentially did not crash, even when given the 'opportunity' when Beloki destructed in front of him on the decent (well he caught the loop of the bag but...). He also virtually never got caught out a la Menchov, despite crashes etc (he did have one such instance and lost 10 or so seconds when the guy in front of him went down a little before the end). He adroitly took advantage of a big crash on the causeway of Stage 1 of his first GC victory by organizing his team and getting cooperation from other teams in the front part to put six minutes on the back part, which included the guy who finished second in the Tour -- six minutes back.

LeMond won Tours because he was the best prepared to use whatever was available rather than what the Europeans 'always did' (e.g., the aero bars in his TT win into Paris). Armstrong took this several steps further and used a thousand little things that added up to seconds and seconds, and seconds. Ullrich was too naturally good to worry as much about those details (although Riis was better at it and it shows in what might now be the best run/managed team CSC). Lots of people on the team dedicated chunks of their year to the little details on bikes, timetrial positions, riding details, scouting details etc.
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Postby 26mi235 » Wed Jul 23, 2008 6:22 am

There is a little more on the positive tests for the new (genreation 3) EPO CERA-type.

Riccardo Riccò was caught by a special molecule placed in the banned substance he is said to have taken, the head of the World Anti-Doping Agency told the Australian Broadcasting Corp. radio today. John Fahey said that Roche Pharmaceuticals had placed a special molecule in the product CERA when it developed the drug, which would help the anti-doping authorities to detect its illegal use.

Of course, maybe the chemist will make there own version, but that might be trickier and more illegal.
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Postby Jnathletics » Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:13 am

Well I was wrong looks like Sastre will win. Up by 1:30+ going into time trial and is holding it. Has only lost :23 to Evans at 2nd time check.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Jul 26, 2008 7:31 am

What was Frank Schleck thinking? Did he really think they would let him get away with drafting?
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Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Jul 27, 2008 6:05 am

If Christian Vandevelde hadn't lost 2:36 on stage 16, the day he crashed on the descent, he'd be on the podium today.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Jul 27, 2008 10:00 am

I just saw a Cadel Evans interview in which a reporter asked him, "What's the difference between first and second in your mind?" His answer, "Many, many hundreds of thousands of Euros." I guess you can't fault him for lack of candor. :wink:
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Postby Conor Dary » Sun Jul 27, 2008 4:30 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:I just saw a Cadel Evans interview in which a reporter asked him, "What's the difference between first and second in your mind?" His answer, "Many, many hundreds of thousands of Euros." I guess you can't fault him for lack of candor. :wink:


That sounds about right.

A great Tour. I am already looking forward to next year.
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Postby Steeplechaser » Sun Jul 27, 2008 5:29 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:I just saw a Cadel Evans interview in which a reporter asked him, "What's the difference between first and second in your mind?" His answer, "Many, many hundreds of thousands of Euros." I guess you can't fault him for lack of candor. :wink:


That sounds about right.

A great Tour. I am already looking forward to next year.


I ignored it more than I have in the past fifteen years, then decided I had to watch L'Alp d'Huez. It was a great stage, and my wife (an avid francophile) and I watched the time trial Saturday and she chastized me for not getting up early enough to watch the final stage (still saw most of it). Maybe we really can "Take back the Tour" ?
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