Brave New World is here


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Brave New World is here

Postby Marlow » Thu Jul 24, 2008 4:47 am

We've discussed the impact of the next new Big Thing in PEDs - bioengineering - and an article linked on the home page says its time has come.
Startling new evidence of a burgeoning underground doping culture in China emerged last night as a hospital doctor said that he was prepared to give illegal performance-enhancing gene therapy treatment to an Olympic swimmer

This is indeed the beginning of the end for our sport - as we know it - as the playing field will be STEEPLY downhill (in both senses of the word) for anyone who can have their body genetically manipulated to perform beyond normal human capacity. I predict that 100 years from now, this will be legal, in a regulated sort of way (good luck with that!), and the standards of performance will rise dramatically. Pego's mythical 8'2 High Jump will not get you through the qualifying rounds of a Global Championship.

Remember - tafn . . . Marl . . . I told you first!! :twisted:
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Postby Mennisco » Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:03 am

Then it is time for the DIVAS. I kid you not. These f**ckers deserve it.

OK, time to say the Serenity Prayer and ask the Lord to forgive me for the evil in my heart.

:?
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Postby Marlow » Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:09 am

Mennisco wrote:Then it is time for the DIVAS. I kid you not. These f**ckers deserve it.


They should be so lucky.

Image
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby jamese1045 » Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:13 am

Marlow wrote:We've discussed the impact of the next new Big Thing in PEDs - bioengineering - and an article linked on the home page says its time has come.
Startling new evidence of a burgeoning underground doping culture in China emerged last night as a hospital doctor said that he was prepared to give illegal performance-enhancing gene therapy treatment to an Olympic swimmer

This is indeed the beginning of the end for our sport - as we know it - as the playing field will be STEEPLY downhill (in both senses of the word) for anyone who can have their body genetically manipulated to perform beyond normal human capacity. I predict that 100 years from now, this will be legal, in a regulated sort of way (good luck with that!), and the standards of performance will rise dramatically. Pego's mythical 8'2 High Jump will not get you through the qualifying rounds of a Global Championship.

Remember - tafn . . . Marl . . . I told you first!! :twisted:


"...
That has such people in't!"
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Postby Mennisco » Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:14 am

Marlow wrote:
Mennisco wrote:Then it is time for the DIVAS. I kid you not. These f**ckers deserve it.


They should be so lucky.

Image


(BADD) IN DEED :

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/intro/ied.htm

http://www.tswg.gov/subgroups/idd/idd.html

http://www.coleparmer.com/techinfo/tech ... .htm&ID=34

http://sciencelinks.jp/j-east/article/2 ... 792744.php
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Postby Pego » Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:42 am

Marlow wrote:Pego's mythical 8'2 High Jump will not get you through the qualifying rounds of a Global Championship.


8'2 (249) is waaay beyond my mythical level already :D .
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Daisy » Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:50 am

Marlow wrote:We've discussed the impact of the next new Big Thing in PEDs - bioengineering - and an article linked on the home page says its time has come.
Startling new evidence of a burgeoning underground doping culture in China emerged last night as a hospital doctor said that he was prepared to give illegal performance-enhancing gene therapy treatment to an Olympic swimmer


Mmm, so he's prepared to give it but has not? Sounds like typical bluster to me. Tell me when he has given it AND it makes the athlete performer better rather than keeling over.
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Marlow » Thu Jul 24, 2008 5:57 am

Daisy wrote: Tell me when he has given it AND it makes the athlete performer better rather than keeling over.

Do you doubt the day is coming . . . and soon?
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Pego » Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:02 am

Marlow wrote:
Daisy wrote: Tell me when he has given it AND it makes the athlete performer better rather than keeling over.

Do you doubt the day is coming . . . and soon?


As you know, I am also in Daisy's camp on this.

Repeat after me, loud, very loud "severe, unpredictable side-effects".
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Marlow » Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:06 am

Pego wrote:Repeat after me, loud, very loud "severe, unpredictable side-effects".

Yes, but that third leg may be a big help too.
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Mennisco » Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:08 am

Pego wrote:
Repeat after me, loud, very loud "severe, unpredictable side-effects".


Which, of course, could result in prosecution for involuntary manslaughter. No man's laughter, either.
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Mennisco » Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:10 am

Marlow wrote:
Pego wrote:Repeat after me, loud, very loud "severe, unpredictable side-effects".

Yes, but that third leg may be a big help too.


Oh, you really don't have a clue where that can lead, do you? Google around and see what you can cum up with.
:roll:
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Marlow » Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:43 am

Mennisco wrote:Oh, you really don't have a clue where that can lead, do you? Google around and see what you can cum up with. :roll:

I don't even want to pretend to know what you're talking about. :x
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Daisy » Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:48 am

Marlow wrote:
Daisy wrote: Tell me when he has given it AND it makes the athlete performer better rather than keeling over.

Do you doubt the day is coming . . . and soon?


Yes. Don't believe everything you read in the press.

Besides, chemicals as more effective, chemicals are harder to detect. So why would athletes switch?
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Marlow » Thu Jul 24, 2008 8:21 am

Daisy wrote:So why would athletes switch?

Bio-engineering suggests more specific, more targeted 'goals'. Chemicals seem more random. If your goal is to increase muscle mass, I would think (but you're the scientist, not I) that one could do something more tailored to the desired goal by messing with specific genes.

Genetic manipulation IS going to happen (it's already started on a rudimentary level), and yes, there's going to be mistakes along the way, but sooner or later (my WAG is in 25 years) medicine will begin 'curing' people by manipulating their genes, not just dosing them with meds. When that happens, athletes will be right there in line for 'treatment'. It is inevitable.
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Mennisco » Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:04 am

Marlow wrote:
Mennisco wrote:Oh, you really don't have a clue where that can lead, do you? Google around and see what you can cum up with. :roll:

I don't even want to pretend to know what you're talking about. :x


http://www.thehumanmarvels.com/2006/04/ ... truly.html
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Marlow » Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:16 am

Mennisco wrote:http://www.thehumanmarvels.com/2006/04/strange-story-of-blanche-dumas-is-truly.html


TTTTTTTTMI
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Postby Mennisco » Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:22 am

You are a squeamish one, aren't you? That was a naturally occurring mutation - why does entertaining thoughts of athletic freaks apparently not bother you nearly so much?

:?
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Mennisco » Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:25 am

Marlow wrote:
TTTTTTTTMI


I saw a licence plate today - PTTTT - I thought "Oh I get it. Pecker 2 TTs, do you copy? "

More likely a biologist or a vintage aircraft enthusiast.
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby tandfman » Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:38 am

Mennisco wrote:
Marlow wrote:
Mennisco wrote:Oh, you really don't have a clue where that can lead, do you? Google around and see what you can cum up with. :roll:

I don't even want to pretend to know what you're talking about. :x

http://www.thehumanmarvels.com/2006/04/ ... truly.html

It appears that at some point, Ms. Dumas may have met her match.

http://phreeque.tripod.com/dos_santos.html
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Postby Mennisco » Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:40 am

Are you calling me a dumbass?

:lol:
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Postby tandfman » Thu Jul 24, 2008 10:42 am

No, would you like me to?

(Just don't ask me to call you a taxicab.) :)
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Postby lonewolf » Thu Jul 24, 2008 11:25 am

I fear I would have difficulty being amourous and nauseous simultaneously.
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Marlow » Thu Jul 24, 2008 12:51 pm

tandfman wrote:It appears that at some point, Ms. Dumas may have met her match.http://phreeque.tripod.com/dos_santos.html

Way to go, Mennisco!! Now look what you've done! Enticed erstwhile respectable poster, tandfman, to wallow in your depravities with you!!! :roll: :twisted: :shock: :D
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Mennisco » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:55 pm

Marlow wrote:Way to go, Mennisco!! Now look what you've done! Enticed erstwhile respectable poster, tandfman, to wallow in your depravities with you!!! :roll: :twisted: :shock: :D

Has he ever been banned?
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Daisy » Thu Jul 24, 2008 2:56 pm

Marlow wrote:
Daisy wrote:So why would athletes switch?

Bio-engineering suggests more specific, more targeted 'goals'. Chemicals seem more random. If your goal is to increase muscle mass, I would think (but you're the scientist, not I) that one could do something more tailored to the desired goal by messing with specific genes.


Not only can chemicals be specific they can also be titrated to the correct dose. Genetic engineering is far harder to manipulate and more likely to fail. To get the optimal level of extra gene expression is luck rather than controlable and is as likely to be too low or too high than just right. You are more likely to make a detrimental mutations than to get the desired change.

Marlow wrote:Genetic manipulation IS going to happen (it's already started on a rudimentary level), and yes, there's going to be mistakes along the way, but sooner or later (my WAG is in 25 years) medicine will begin 'curing' people by manipulating their genes, not just dosing them with meds. When that happens, athletes will be right there in line for 'treatment'. It is inevitable.


They might be in line for treatment but they will not get the benefits you claim. The chemists will win over the athletes with superior results and undetectable small molecules.
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby Marlow » Thu Jul 24, 2008 6:30 pm

Daisy wrote:They might be in line for treatment but they will not get the benefits you claim. The chemists will win over the athletes with superior results and undetectable small molecules.

Ima gonna hafta take your word for it, cuz I am seriously overmatched in the scientific department, Dr. Daisy!!
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Postby Mennisco » Thu Jul 24, 2008 7:16 pm

"In addition, the sensationalized story was on MSNBC, but it’s really an AP story. If you are mad about the AP story, you should be angry at the writer/editor of the story, and not “western” media. Always differentiate who really is responsible, unless you want to fall into the same trap the first article did by blaming China for the actions of one man."

http://blog.foolsmountain.com/2008/07/2 ... o-athletes

“It is very scary that health professionals should have such a lack of ethics and try what we know to be experimental on human beings for a vast amount of money,”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/ ... 375097.ece

"Patrick Diel, a gene therapy expert at the Deutsche Sporthochschule in Cologne and WADA officer, expressed astonishment that such performance enhancements were so readily available. “I find this shocking,” Diel said. “It carries enormous health risks. Quite frankly, this surpasses my worst fears.” Diel and other German experts also said there was no evidence that stem-cell injections would work as a doping treatment." [so why is he attributed with calling them performance enhancements?]

http://olympics.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/ ... for-24000/

"The film provides evidence that drug companies are willing to flout Government orders to 'keep China doping-free before the Games' by selling steroids that never passed full clinical and pharmaceutical trials and EPO at prices that undercut western competition by a massive margin: in the case of one steroid, 100g was sold for 150 euros when the price in Europe would have been more than 6,000 euros, according to experts."

http://www.swimnews.com/News/displaySto ... et&id=6224

Download the actual documentary, in German:

http://www.dokfilm.de/cms/frontend/port ... 1&page=137
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Re: Brave New World is here

Postby mikli » Fri Jul 25, 2008 4:49 am

Daisy wrote:Not only can chemicals be specific they can also be titrated to the correct dose. Genetic engineering is far harder to manipulate and more likely to fail. To get the optimal level of extra gene expression is luck rather than controlable and is as likely to be too low or too high than just right. You are more likely to make a detrimental mutations than to get the desired change.

As of today, likely to change "slightly" during this millenium.
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Postby Marlow » Tue Nov 18, 2008 5:03 am

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Postby Daisy » Tue Nov 18, 2008 4:36 pm

Marlow wrote:uh oh . . .


Which bit are you referring to? All I see is that athletes want to use it. Nowhere in the article does it say it will work.

I'm sure the athletes want to use a star trek like teleporter to save having to use commerical flights. It does not mean it can be done.
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Postby Marlow » Tue Nov 18, 2008 6:35 pm

Daisy wrote:
Marlow wrote:uh oh . . .


Which bit are you referring to? All I see is that athletes want to use it. Nowhere in the article does it say it will work.

I'm sure the athletes want to use a star trek like teleporter to save having to use commerical flights. It does not mean it can be done.

Daisy - even though you know 14,000 times as much as I do about this stuff, I still think you GROSSLY underestimate the time it will take to get genetic engineering out of the lab and into people's bodies, in a way that can enhance their 'natural gifts'. Sure there will be dangers, but since when has that ever stopped someone from trying?
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Postby Daisy » Tue Nov 18, 2008 10:59 pm

Marlow wrote:
Daisy wrote:
Marlow wrote:uh oh . . .


Which bit are you referring to? All I see is that athletes want to use it. Nowhere in the article does it say it will work.

I'm sure the athletes want to use a star trek like teleporter to save having to use commerical flights. It does not mean it can be done.

Daisy - even though you know 14,000 times as much as I do about this stuff, I still think you GROSSLY underestimate the time it will take to get genetic engineering out of the lab and into people's bodies, in a way that can enhance their 'natural gifts'. Sure there will be dangers, but since when has that ever stopped someone from trying?


I don't underestimate the time in which it can be done. It will be done. What i question is whether the result will be an elite athlete. For every lab rat successfully engineered there are hundreds of failures.
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Postby tandfman » Tue Nov 18, 2008 11:46 pm

Daisy wrote:What i question is whether the result will be an elite athlete. For every lab rat successfully engineered there are hundreds of failures.

So what? For every medal winner, there are thousands of non-medal winners.
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Postby Daisy » Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:29 am

tandfman wrote:
Daisy wrote:What i question is whether the result will be an elite athlete. For every lab rat successfully engineered there are hundreds of failures.

So what? For every medal winner, there are thousands of non-medal winners.


Why risk a 1/100 or worse shot at success rather than use the real gains from chemicals?

My position has always been that the gains from chemicals are more effective and harder to detect.
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Postby tandfman » Wed Nov 19, 2008 4:14 am

Harder to detect than gene manipulation? I don't know about that.
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Postby Daisy » Wed Nov 19, 2008 7:56 am

tandfman wrote:Harder to detect than gene manipulation? I don't know about that.


The evidence of gene manipulation is always going to be present in your cells. For chemicals you only get caught if you have them in your system. Assuming they can even be detected or distinguished from the bodies own versions.
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Postby Marlow » Wed Nov 19, 2008 8:05 am

Daisy wrote:
tandfman wrote:Harder to detect than gene manipulation? I don't know about that.

The evidence of gene manipulation is always going to be present in your cells.


If ANY kind of genetic manipulation is 'easily' detected, then I feel better. I just don't 'trust' geneticists to NOT figure out a way to alter the gene structure to benefit a greater musculature WITHOUT detection.
Botanists - nice, kind, friendly flower people, with cute little nicknames like . . . oh . . . I don't know . . .Daisy.
Geneticists - evil, nefarious, moohahahaha mad scientists, with nicknames like Igor or Viktor
8-)
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Postby tandfman » Wed Nov 19, 2008 9:17 am

Daisy wrote:
tandfman wrote:Harder to detect than gene manipulation? I don't know about that.

The evidence of gene manipulation is always going to be present in your cells. For chemicals you only get caught if you have them in your system.

Sorry, I'm not a scientist. I realize that the altered gene will always be in your system, but are you saying that there will always be evidence that it has been altered? If so, I'm glad to hear that.
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Postby Daisy » Wed Nov 19, 2008 12:29 pm

tandfman wrote:are you saying that there will always be evidence that it has been altered?


In short, yes.
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