Thanou


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Thanou

Postby Matt » Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:11 am

Almost makes one feel sympathy for Chambers:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/olympic ... 517713.stm
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Postby peach » Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:51 am

Whilst I wholeheartedly would love to get rid of her on a personal level, I just don't see how they can...or should...when the likes of Lyudmila Blonska will be happily in the fight for medals...
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Postby Mennisco » Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:31 am

peach wrote:Whilst I wholeheartedly would love to get rid of her on a personal level,.


What does this mean?
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Postby 26mi235 » Mon Jul 21, 2008 9:39 am

peach wrote:Whilst I wholeheartedly would love to get rid of her on a personal level, I just don't see how they can...or should...when the likes of Lyudmila Blonska will be happily in the fight for medals...


There is a wrinkle -- she declined to come before the IOC to defend herself and turned in her credentials instead. Those credentials are still 'turned in' and she is going to have to go in front of the IOC to get them back. She is probably not going to do it and they are not going to make it easy.
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Postby Jacksf » Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:30 am

peach wrote:Whilst I wholeheartedly would love to get rid of her on a personal level, I just don't see how they can...or should...when the likes of Lyudmila Blonska will be happily in the fight for medals...


How do you feel about convicted dopers, Torrie Edwards and Damu Cherry being on the US team?!
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Postby Seeksreal » Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:35 am

Jacksf wrote:
peach wrote:Whilst I wholeheartedly would love to get rid of her on a personal level, I just don't see how they can...or should...when the likes of Lyudmila Blonska will be happily in the fight for medals...


How do you feel about convicted dopers, Torrie Edwards and Damu Cherry being on the US team?!

I would be in favor of stricter penalties for doping of serious nature, i.e. hormones, epo, etc. and lifetime OG bans are not unreasonable. I don't recall what Torri did, but my recollection is that hers was of a "lighter" nature and thus she should be ok. However, what now is a 2-year ban is a serious violation.
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Postby peach » Mon Jul 21, 2008 11:30 am

Mennisco wrote:
What does this mean?


What it says- that I personally don't WANT her in the Olympics, but I can't see how they can refuse...it's ridiculous when others are allowed, same as I thought about Chambers. However, I didn't know that about the accreditation thing...

As for Cherry , I feel the same way I do about Thanou...

Edwards less so. Whatever your opinion about her (and I know there are a few on here who don't believe for a minute she is clean), the whole nikethamide (sp?) was downgraded just after her ban and is no longer a 2 year punishment...
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Postby 26mi235 » Mon Jul 21, 2008 11:51 am

Jacksf wrote:
peach wrote:Whilst I wholeheartedly would love to get rid of her on a personal level, I just don't see how they can...or should...when the likes of Lyudmila Blonska will be happily in the fight for medals...


How do you feel about convicted dopers, Torrie Edwards and Damu Cherry being on the US team?!


Your flawed indictment of Torrie gets a little tiresome/boring - it was a secondary infraction (although it took IAAF/WADA awhile to go from evidence to action in reducing the categorization) and why exactly would she be wanting a light (at most) advantage in an early-season meet of no consequence?

In my mind Cherry is a different kettle of fish and is not high on my list of athletes I admire. I was disappointed so see athletes like Powell not on the team while she made it.
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Postby peach » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:11 pm

And why don't you read, my dear boy...I actually have no issue with Torri Edwards whatsoever, I said that many people on this board do. Whatever you believe, the facts show she tested positive for something which is now considered a "minor" stimulant- I have no problem with her competing in the games at all...
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Postby peach » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:12 pm

Oh sorry, i've just realised that was aimed at Jack

less haste, more speed peach...
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Postby Jacksf » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:18 pm

...and what was Thanou convicted of using?
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Postby peach » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:22 pm

Jacksf wrote:...and what was Thanou convicted of using?


We're not going to go through THAT again are we....
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Postby Daisy » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:33 pm

Jacksf wrote:...and what was Thanou convicted of using?


So, she will have no problem getting back her Olympic accreditation then. :roll:
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Postby 26mi235 » Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:36 pm

Jacksf wrote:...and what was Thanou convicted of using?


It is like a driver with a DUI that refuses to take a breath test. Some of those involved are already convicted of crimes, hers has just been put off 'n' times. Since she did not appear she gave up her credential for the Games and does not have one yet.
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Postby Jacksf » Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:06 pm

I'm just pointing out what I feel is a strong US bias in these doping conversations.
You guys are always given the benefit of the doubt or citing some excuse, exception for the US athletes; while non-US athletes are seemingly always guilty.
Play fair guys.
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Re: Thanou

Postby maroon » Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:23 pm

Matt wrote:Almost makes one feel sympathy for Chambers:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/olympic ... 517713.stm


well, add the christine ohurogu situation (same offense as ms. thanou and same olympic association as mr. chambers) and surely you must be devasted for mr. chambers. will be interesting to see the british reaction when ms. ohurogu wins the 400m in beijing.
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Re: Thanou

Postby peach » Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:45 pm

maroon wrote:
Matt wrote:Almost makes one feel sympathy for Chambers:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/olympic ... 517713.stm


well, add the christine ohurogu situation (same offense as ms. thanou and same olympic association as mr. chambers) and surely you must be devasted for mr. chambers. will be interesting to see the british reaction when ms. ohurogu wins the 400m in beijing.


Incorrect...Thanou was convicted of "avoiding" tests

Ohuruogo was convicted of "missing" tests and the authorities went to the trouble of saying there was no suggestion this was done intentionally or that she was on drugs.

Entirely different matter
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Re: Thanou

Postby Daisy » Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:47 pm

maroon wrote:add the christine ohurogu situation (same offense as ms. thanou).


You have to stretch the comparison a lot to call it the same.
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Postby Mike67 » Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:51 pm

I'm hoping Thanou can pull off a second behind Nesterenko!! How about you Mennisco?
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Postby texas_speed » Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:56 pm

Jacksf wrote:I'm just pointing out what I feel is a strong US bias in these doping conversations.
You guys are always given the benefit of the doubt or citing some excuse, exception for the US athletes; while non-US athletes are seemingly always guilty.
Play fair guys.
\

I think quite the opposite. Conte just came out in an article saying he thinks Caribbean runners are doping but no one is ranting and raving about it...it's just written off as him trying to bring the whole sport down after being caught.

Typically, in my experience, US athletes are guilty until proven innocent since Marion, Tim, Gatlin, etc. (and to some degree I understand the sentiment). I don't think its a bias about US athletes...at least not to the degree your claiming. If anything, I think the U.S. athletes face more scrutiny because many of their top stars of yesteryear have been found guilty and thus, anyone who does something mind boggling is looked at with a cautious eye from the world.

As for Torri, that is pretty cut and dry. It was a case of negligent use, she served her time without denial and the rule was later changed. What's tough about that one?

I think non-U.S. athletes get the benefit of the doubt more than a U.S. athlete in most cases.
Last edited by texas_speed on Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Flumpy » Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:59 pm

Jacksf wrote:...and what was Thanou convicted of using?


A motorcycle, to fake a crash whilst avoiding taking a drug test that she knew she would fail as she was taking vast amounts of PED's along with her training partner and convicted drug peddling coach.
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Postby Mike67 » Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:05 pm

Flumpy wrote:
Jacksf wrote:...and what was Thanou convicted of using?


A motorcycle, to fake a crash whilst avoiding taking a drug test that she knew she would fail as she was taking vast amounts of PED's along with her training partner and convicted drug peddling coach.


Pure conjecture!
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Postby Flumpy » Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:45 pm

Of course, but would you bet against it being true???
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Re: Thanou

Postby maroon » Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:25 pm

peach wrote:
maroon wrote:
Matt wrote:Almost makes one feel sympathy for Chambers:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/olympic ... 517713.stm


well, add the christine ohurogu situation (same offense as ms. thanou and same olympic association as mr. chambers) and surely you must be devasted for mr. chambers. will be interesting to see the british reaction when ms. ohurogu wins the 400m in beijing.


Incorrect...Thanou was convicted of "avoiding" tests

Ohuruogo was convicted of "missing" tests and the authorities went to the trouble of saying there was no suggestion this was done intentionally or that she was on drugs.

Entirely different matter


the punishment is the same, whether the offense is avoiding or missing the tests. just don't be surprised if john q. public doesn't get your subtle distinction if ms. ohurogu beats one of the heavily hyped u.s. stars of the games.
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Re: Thanou

Postby maroon » Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:27 pm

Daisy wrote:
maroon wrote:add the christine ohurogu situation (same offense as ms. thanou).


You have to stretch the comparison a lot to call it the same.


really?
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Postby Jacksf » Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:08 pm

texas_speed wrote:
Jacksf wrote:I'm just pointing out what I feel is a strong US bias in these doping conversations.
You guys are always given the benefit of the doubt or citing some excuse, exception for the US athletes; while non-US athletes are seemingly always guilty.
Play fair guys.
\

I think quite the opposite. Conte just came out in an article saying he thinks Caribbean runners are doping but no one is ranting and raving about it...it's just written off as him trying to bring the whole sport down after being caught.

Typically, in my experience, US athletes are guilty until proven innocent since Marion, Tim, Gatlin, etc. (and to some degree I understand the sentiment). I don't think its a bias about US athletes...at least not to the degree your claiming. If anything, I think the U.S. athletes face more scrutiny because many of their top stars of yesteryear have been found guilty and thus, anyone who does something mind boggling is looked at with a cautious eye from the world.

As for Torri, that is pretty cut and dry. It was a case of negligent use, she served her time without denial and the rule was later changed. What's tough about that one?

I think non-U.S. athletes get the benefit of the doubt more than a U.S. athlete in most cases.


Certainly the US and European athletes go through more scrutiny than the Caribbean athletes - that is not my point (and we can't rant and rave about drug use by athletes that haven't been caught on this board -that's against the rules).
But there is (in my opinion) a double standard against non-US athletes on this board when it comes to doping discussions.
For example it was never mentioned on this forum once when Damu Cherry qualified for the Olympic team that she is a convicted drug cheat. Nobody mentioned a concern that she is getting a chance to compete at the Olympics. But plenty of comments about Nesterenko and Thanou and Chambers and other Europeans returning to the Olympics.
When we starting talking about the 80s, everyone jumps on the Eastern Europeans, but FloJo and her teammates are generally excluded from that kind of discussion.
If a non-American comes out of nowhere or back from the dead with a great time - it's suspicious. If it's an American - it's awesome.
You mention Americans are considered guilty until proven innocent, but I have not heard a suspicious word about Tyson Gay ever. Can't say the same about Asafa Powell.
As far as Gatlin and Jones and concerned, guys were defending those two vehemently right up until they said they were guilty. I know because I remember arguing with them right here on this board.

I am not saying that Thanou or others aren't guilty, I am just saying let's not be so naive as to think US athletes don't have their fair share of guilty athletes too.
Of course I am not talking about everyone on this board, but definitely a lot of people have this attitude.
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Re: Thanou

Postby Daisy » Mon Jul 21, 2008 4:17 pm

maroon wrote:
Daisy wrote:
maroon wrote:add the christine ohurogu situation (same offense as ms. thanou).


You have to stretch the comparison a lot to call it the same.


really?


Tell me how training in Chicago, when you should be in a completely different country, is different to being at a different track due to your normal one being in use by an unanticipated event?
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Re: Thanou

Postby maroon » Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:27 pm

Daisy wrote:
maroon wrote:
Daisy wrote:
maroon wrote:add the christine ohurogu situation (same offense as ms. thanou).


You have to stretch the comparison a lot to call it the same.


really?


Tell me how training in Chicago, when you should be in a completely different country, is different to being at a different track due to your normal one being in use by an unanticipated event?


that is the point -- the rules do not recognize a difference. and there is a reason the rules provide for a suspension after 3 (not one or two) missed tests no matter the excuse.
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Re: Thanou

Postby Daisy » Mon Jul 21, 2008 5:44 pm

maroon wrote:
Daisy wrote:
maroon wrote:
Daisy wrote:
maroon wrote:add the christine ohurogu situation (same offense as ms. thanou).


You have to stretch the comparison a lot to call it the same.


really?


Tell me how training in Chicago, when you should be in a completely different country, is different to being at a different track due to your normal one being in use by an unanticipated event?


that is the point -- the rules do not recognize a difference. and there is a reason the rules provide for a suspension after 3 (not one or two) missed tests no matter the excuse.


So you don't see the difference AND the rules don't see a difference?
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Postby maroon » Mon Jul 21, 2008 6:55 pm

they were suspended for the same offense -- 3 missed tests. the only difference is that there is extraneous evidence suggesting that ms. thanou evaded the tests in order to escape an otherwsie inevitable positive test and no such evidence has come to light in ms. ohurougu's case. i choose not to believe ms. ohuroughu's explanation, however.

it just seems odd that mr. chambers is villified for attempting to overturn his olympic ban while ms. ohurougu is cheered for having succesfully overturned hers.
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Postby Daisy » Mon Jul 21, 2008 7:21 pm

maroon wrote:they were suspended for the same offense -- 3 missed tests. the only difference is that there is extraneous evidence suggesting that ms. thanou evaded the tests in order to escape an otherwsie inevitable positive test and no such evidence has come to light in ms. ohurougu's case. i choose not to believe ms. ohuroughu's explanation, however .


You don't see any difference in the manner that the evasion took place? The whole point here is you seem to think everyone should be viewed the same on their return. Why would any logical person do that given that one athlete was hop-scotching around the world trying to avoid testers and the other was not? That you choose to think they are similar is your choice but don't sound so surprised when others disagree.

maroon wrote:it just seems odd that mr. chambers is villified for attempting to overturn his olympic ban while ms. ohurougu is cheered for having succesfully overturned hers.


Not by me, i said i think he should run.
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Postby 26mi235 » Mon Jul 21, 2008 8:29 pm

Jacksf wrote:For example it was never mentioned on this forum once when Damu Cherry qualified for the Olympic team that she is a convicted drug cheat. Nobody mentioned a concern that she is getting a chance to compete at the Olympics.


A number of people have commented on this over the last two years; relief that she did not get in last year, disappointment that she did this year (see my post, for instance, where I respond to Torri and Damu as very different cases).

As for the British purist on doping who post often on that topic, I do not want to hear it unless you apply it to O, otherwise it is just ...
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Postby peach » Tue Jul 22, 2008 12:40 am

I honestly fail to understand how people can't see the difference between the Ohuruogo case and that of the recent American positives, Chambers and Thanou...

I fully supported Christine's ban- she deserved it entirely- but to say it's in the same league really is ludicrous. It just doesn't fit the facts and anyone saying otherwise really is talking utter rubbish

And that's not from a "British purist" point of view, I'd quite happily have the same view if the same facts had been revealed about an American athlete, hell, even a Greek. Purposeful test evasion is NOT the same thing as the admittedly stupid situation the Big O found herself in...
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Postby Jon » Tue Jul 22, 2008 3:32 am

maroon wrote:they were suspended for the same offense -- 3 missed tests. the only difference is that there is extraneous evidence suggesting that ms. thanou evaded the tests in order to escape an otherwsie inevitable positive test and no such evidence has come to light in ms. ohurougu's case. i choose not to believe ms. ohuroughu's explanation, however.
You fail to acknowledge a key difference. Thanou missed three of IAAF/WADA's tests. Ohuruogu missed three of UK Sport's tests. National governing bodies test far more frequently than IAAF/WADA (or at least they do in the UK - unfortunately it's not the same in every country), so it is easier to miss three tests within an 18-month period. Relatively speaking, the IAAF/WADA tests don't come up as often, so it is quite difficult to actually miss three tests within a short period of time. By some freak incident (I heard a motorcycle was involved), Thanou and KK managed to do exactly that. There is plenty of other evidence showing that they were going out of their way to avoid being tested - hence why they received a ban.

Ohuruogu, on the other hand, was tested many times during that 18-month period. When you get tested so often, it is almost inevitable that you will miss a test at some point (dozens of British athletes have - that's the downside of being tested so often). There was no evidence whatsoever that Ohuruogu was purposely evading tests - if there was, then she would have been banned for two years.

When the testers came knocking for KK/Thanou, they were in a different country. When the testers came knocking for Ohuruogu, she was 20 minutes around the corner (but the flaws in the testing system did not allow the tester to contact and/or meet with Ohuruogu, which would have prevented the missed tests).

I still can't believe some people (especially 26mi235) cannot differentiate between the two cases. There is about as much similarity between Thanou and Ohuruogu as there is between a kettle and a rabbit.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Jul 22, 2008 4:35 am

Does anyone know if KK and Thanou were tested at all during the time frame that they missed the tests? Or were the three missed tests the only time that the IAAF tried to test them during that time?
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Postby Mennisco » Tue Jul 22, 2008 5:47 am

Mike67 wrote:I'm hoping Thanou can pull off a second behind Nesterenko!! How about you Mennisco?


Sounds good to me, Nesterenko 9.82, Thanou 9.83 - that'd yank a second from her PR. Then we could have something like the Wacky Olympics in Middle School, where the best girl races the best boy. Oh, and I'd love to see Torrie Ewards become the modern equivalent of Chi Cheng, becoming the first real woman to run a 100 in "even time" - 3rd in 10.00. But that'd be a bit too dark for my liking, et toi? eh twat?
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Postby 26mi235 » Tue Jul 22, 2008 6:09 am

Jon wrote:I still can't believe some people (especially 26mi235) cannot differentiate between the two cases. There is about as much similarity between Thanou and Ohuruogu as there is between a kettle and a rabbit.


I very much DO differentiate, I was taking a bit of a shot at someone that seems not to, unless the party involved is one of his favs (i.e., attacking Torrie for a minor violation that would have advantaged her not at all in the sport vs 'O', who maybe also just made mistakes but did indeed commit what is still considered a major violation, and then throw in Gatlin's extreme sin of having had a 'no-advantage' minor violation that then kills his career even though he cooperated like all of the super-anti-cheating people would like).
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Postby maroon » Tue Jul 22, 2008 7:58 am

Jon wrote:You fail to acknowledge a key difference. Thanou missed three of IAAF/WADA's tests. Ohuruogu missed three of UK Sport's tests. National governing bodies test far more frequently than IAAF/WADA (or at least they do in the UK - unfortunately it's not the same in every country), so it is easier to miss three tests within an 18-month period. Relatively speaking, the IAAF/WADA tests don't come up as often, so it is quite difficult to actually miss three tests within a short period of time. By some freak incident (I heard a motorcycle was involved), Thanou and KK managed to do exactly that. There is plenty of other evidence showing that they were going out of their way to avoid being tested - hence why they received a ban.

Ohuruogu, on the other hand, was tested many times during that 18-month period. When you get tested so often, it is almost inevitable that you will miss a test at some point (dozens of British athletes have - that's the downside of being tested so often). There was no evidence whatsoever that Ohuruogu was purposely evading tests - if there was, then she would have been banned for two years.

When the testers came knocking for KK/Thanou, they were in a different country. When the testers came knocking for Ohuruogu, she was 20 minutes around the corner (but the flaws in the testing system did not allow the tester to contact and/or meet with Ohuruogu, which would have prevented the missed tests).

I still can't believe some people (especially 26mi235) cannot differentiate between the two cases. There is about as much similarity between Thanou and Ohuruogu as there is between a kettle and a rabbit.


i understand all of that -- but no need to overstate your case. the bottom line is that they both got suspensions for missing 3 tests . a better comparison would be between a pot and a kettle. furthermore the pot/kettle comparison only works if you believe ms. ohurougu's testimony that she was not trying to evade the tests. all of this in the context of an athlete who after coming back from her ban proceeds to run almost a full second less than her previous seasonal best in the wc final. (please, save the explanations -- i am aware of them)

let me state it again. i don't believe her.

moreover, none of the differences you have identified above should dictate that one is allowed to compete in the olympics but not the other. a fortiori, mr. chambers, who was before the same august body as ms. ohurougu.
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Postby EPelle » Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:29 am

New disciplinary hearing if she makes it to Beijing:
http://www.iht.com/articles/reuters/200 ... THANOU.php
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Postby Mennisco » Thu Jul 24, 2008 3:51 am

Jon wrote:
When you get tested so often, it is almost inevitable that you will miss a test at some point (dozens of British athletes have - that's the downside of being tested so often)


This weakens your argument, contrary to what your reasoning skills have led you to believe. "Hey, it happens all the time! "Everyone" is doing it! What's the big deal?" If it is "almost" inevitable, then it is not inevitable, and this is not an excuse. The fact that so many Brits have missed tests may just as easily mean they are adept at evading them.

Certainly I have no way of knowing with absolute certainty whether Ms. O was evading tests, or was just incomprehensibly careless - but if British athletes are being tested "frequently" then it behooves them to be intelligently responsible and sufficiently frequently prepared, so as to avoid, at the least, the appearance of deliberate evasion.

Finally, are you saying that Britain tests more than any other nation? Is there another nation that tests as frequently? If so, do the athletes of that country miss tests as frequently as British athletes? How does the British record of missed tests : total tests compare with that of other countries? These are important questions, too.
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