Project Believe


This Forum was created to divert traffic from Current Events at the height of the BALCO scandal. It comes and goes as "needed"; it's back to being locked.

Project Believe

Postby wamego relays champ » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:17 am

I may have missed a home page news link about this program:

"The U.S. Anti-Doping Agency recently launched a far-reaching initiative aimed at proving that certain elite American athletes are competing drug-free, two of the athletes in the program disclosed Wednesday at the U.S. Olympic Committee’s “media summit” in Chicago."

Details described here:

http://blogs.nbcsports.com/home/archive ... lieve.html

and here

http://www.latimes.com/sports/la-sp-ell ... ull.column

.
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Postby tandfman » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:53 am

The link is there. It's shown as "Columnist: It's Not Easy . . ."
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Postby gh » Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:55 am

Actually there was an earlier link yesterday (which is still on the front page) which starts "USADA...."
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Postby balzonia » Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:31 am

gh wrote:Actually there was an earlier link yesterday (which is still on the front page) which starts "USADA...."


i would love for an elite athlete to take this a step further and create an insurance policy against themselves.

an elite athlete should make a public and legal contract that says "if i ever test positive for peds, i will give $1million to charity" (maybe youth track and field development programs).

get an insurance company to underwrite it, pay the premiums out of athletic or earnings perhaps by sponsorship, and commit to being clean.
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Postby 26mi235 » Thu Apr 17, 2008 10:47 am

balzonia wrote:
gh wrote:Actually there was an earlier link yesterday (which is still on the front page) which starts "USADA...."


i would love for an elite athlete to take this a step further and create an insurance policy against themselves.

an elite athlete should make a public and legal contract that says "if i ever test positive for peds, i will give $1million to charity" (maybe youth track and field development programs).

get an insurance company to underwrite it, pay the premiums out of athletic or earnings perhaps by sponsorship, and commit to being clean.


Insurance companies do not write policies on 'endogenous' events, there is too much of a moral hazard involved and too much information asymmetry. There are also too many ways to test positive that are inadvertent (and might actually be sabotage) and the loss of earnings etc is big and getting bigger. Hopefully, those that have networks are realizing that there are more holes now and they are harder to plug. I do not know what to think about the comments that there have been sets of positives that have been sat on/shredded.

I do think that some form of the "biological passport" is the way to go and that those not willing to participate might be on a question list.
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Postby EPelle » Thu Apr 17, 2008 11:50 am

26mi235 wrote:I do think that some form of the "biological passport" is the way to go and that those not willing to participate might be on a question list.

AKA Don Catlin project.
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Postby Cyril » Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:20 pm

I think this is a great idea. Athlete who voluteer to be involved in an extensive program are leading the way to cleaning up the sport. They also set an example for the future of the sport by being held up as an example - it can be done the right way!
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Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:57 pm

I really don't see what's the point in all of this. The cheaters have already proven that they can beat any test given no matter how often it's given, even when it's given randomly, and out of competition, year round.
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Postby 26mi235 » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:29 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:I really don't see what's the point in all of this. The cheaters have already proven that they can beat any test given no matter how often it's given, even when it's given randomly, and out of competition, year round.


The passport is new and not really tested. However, there have been athletes that have been identified with a very loose version of this who passed through one-shot (single-shot) tests. Tyler Hamilton is one, who was identified as suspicious by following his profile, not by whether he passed a single test or series of them. In his case, they were suspicious and kept looking for him (one of the first blood doping positives.
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Postby kuha » Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:08 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:I really don't see what's the point in all of this. The cheaters have already proven that they can beat any test given no matter how often it's given, even when it's given randomly, and out of competition, year round.


I agree. If "we" want to spend $50 million per year, employee a staff of 10,000 medical technicians and undercover detectives, then maybe there would be significant "progress"....but, really, is this issue really THAT important???
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Postby bambam » Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:39 pm

kuha wrote:I agree. If "we" want to spend $50 million per year, employee a staff of 10,000 medical technicians and undercover detectives, then maybe there would be significant "progress"....but, really, is this issue really THAT important???


Boy, is that a great question. Couldn't agree more.
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Postby donley2 » Fri Apr 18, 2008 6:34 pm

kuha wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:I really don't see what's the point in all of this. The cheaters have already proven that they can beat any test given no matter how often it's given, even when it's given randomly, and out of competition, year round.


I agree. If "we" want to spend $50 million per year, employee a staff of 10,000 medical technicians and undercover detectives, then maybe there would be significant "progress"....but, really, is this issue really THAT important???

Sports (not track and field obviously) is a multi-billion dollar industry. Fifty million is chump change.
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Postby kuha » Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:05 am

donley2 wrote:Sports (not track and field obviously) is a multi-billion dollar industry. Fifty million is chump change.


I'm just guessing at the numbers--the "real" amount could be just about anything, $50M, $200M, $500M, who knows? The real point is that the the "multi-billion dollar industry" you mention has next to NO incentive for getting serious about all this. They will do as little as they can get away with doing, and no more. And since I think we can all agree that track and field is NOT a "multi-billion dollar industry," that presents a very significant problem for the subject we are discussing. Whatever amount it would take to truly "clean up" t&f would NOT be chump change.

I am not trying to be provocative, funny, ironic, or a PEDs-advocate. It's just a question of reality. With all the incredibly pressing problems in the today's world, how high on our list, really, is PED use among elite athletes? Frankly, if I was going to be concerned about this general subject, I'd suggest that PED-use among non-elite athletes is a bigger worry, since the numbers involved are so much larger and the users tend to be younger.
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Postby tandfman » Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:32 am

kuha wrote:Frankly, if I was going to be concerned about this general subject, I'd suggest that PED-use among non-elite athletes is a bigger worry, since the numbers involved are so much larger and the users tend to be younger.

And that is a major reason to be concerned about PED use by elite athletes. They're role models. If the penalties for PED use by elite athletes were as severe as the penalties for the possession of heroin, and PED's had the same stigma that heroin does, the use of PED's among mainstream non-elite athletes would be a fraction of what it is. Instead, the professional sports industry, by its refusal to sign on to WADA, its code and its globally accepted principles, sends the message that PED use is not something anyone should really be concerned with at all.
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Postby kuha » Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:38 am

tandfman wrote:
kuha wrote:Frankly, if I was going to be concerned about this general subject, I'd suggest that PED-use among non-elite athletes is a bigger worry, since the numbers involved are so much larger and the users tend to be younger.

And that is a major reason to be concerned about PED use by elite athletes. They're role models. If the penalties for PED use by elite athletes were as severe as the penalties for the possession of heroin, and PED's had the same stigma that heroin does, the use of PED's among mainstream non-elite athletes would be a fraction of what it is. Instead, the professional sports industry, by its refusal to sign on to WADA, its code and its globally accepted principles, sends the message that PED use is not something anyone should really be concerned with at all.


That is "a" reason--it's not remotely "the" major reason to be draconian about PED use among elite athletes. If HS-age use is the primary target, there are far better & more direct ways to get at it than by hounding Barry Bonds, or by banning Justin Gatlin.
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Postby tandfman » Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:54 am

And that is why I used the indefinite article.
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Postby kuha » Sat Apr 19, 2008 8:17 am

Yes, certainly. I apologize if you interpreted me as challenging your words.

Just guessing, but I'd suggest that the discussion on these boards of elite PED use vs. non-elite PED use--as a "major" social & moral issue--would be something like a ratio of 200:1. I wonder how "our" expressed concerns here relate to the real social/cultural priorities of this overall issue?
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Postby gh » Sun Apr 20, 2008 3:59 pm

tandfman wrote:.... If the penalties for PED use by elite athletes were as severe as the penalties for the possession of heroin, and PED's had the same stigma that heroin does, the use of PED's among mainstream non-elite athletes would be a fraction of what it is. .....


Yeah, I had forgotten what a raging success our decades old War On Drugs has been. Well raging success if you're in the prison guard union at least.
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Postby mrbowie » Sun Apr 20, 2008 7:49 pm

When I read all this doping and lying stuff, the Nazi in this Jew comes to the fore.

Here is a great plan, though totally unacceptable in civilized society:

Plant some sort of chip in the system of every athletic participant. If they wind up ingesting an illegal foreign substance, the chip activates a poison and the athlete expires.

Another chip would be for liars. Under questioning, if somebody lies under oath, poison is released, liar croaks.
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Postby tandfman » Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:32 am

Hey, with technology like that, we wouldn't need waterboarding, would we? :)
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Postby dakota » Tue May 27, 2008 11:32 am

Does drug testing just help the most sophisticated dope fiends by picking off their rivals?
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Postby 26mi235 » Fri May 30, 2008 11:36 am

EPelle wrote:
26mi235 wrote:I do think that some form of the "biological passport" is the way to go and that those not willing to participate might be on a question list.

AKA Don Catlin project.


Cycling has just banned Astarloa based on the blood passport

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2008/may08/may30news

Team Milram has terminated its contract with former World Champion Igor Astarloa, following disclosures that he had shown "irregular blood values",...

"He has received a letter saying that he no longer rides for us," said team manager .. "He does not agree with it and therefore it is all in the hands of attorneys." He emphasised that there was no positive doping test.

Astarloa, 32, did not start the second stage of the Giro d'Italia, allegedly because of stomach problems. The Spaniard won the 2003 World Championships in Hamilton, Canada.
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