Drugs: What's Acceptable And What Isn't [split]


This Forum was created to divert traffic from Current Events at the height of the BALCO scandal. It comes and goes as "needed"; it's back to being locked.

Postby gh » Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:36 am

Fresh from a banning on the Things Not Track Forum, a caution to Andrea T and bennyg... one more unsubstantiated drug accusation and you're gone also.
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Postby Andrea_T » Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:45 am

gh wrote:Fresh from a banning on the Things Not Track Forum, a caution to Andrea T and bennyg... one more unsubstantiated drug accusation and you're gone also.


Could you please define what is a substantiated claim and what is not? Could you also please advise why it is ok to accuse Flo Jo, but not her training partners, and why it is ok to smear all GDR athletes despite no evidence against all GDR athletes?

If you can provide a clear, fair explanation on what the rules are we can all follow them. At present I am quite confused as to why some posts about Flo Jo have stood, while posts on her training partners have been removed. I am also confused as to why posters can call all GDR athletes cheats when their is only documentary evidence agaisnt some GDR athletes. Some posts have even suggested all eastern bloc athletes were doped, yet these posts were not removed.

Many thanks
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Postby gh » Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:49 am

It's NOT acceptable to trash Flojo..... more posts regarding her have been removed than all others combined.

I have no trouble with generalized slanging of countries from the drug era (including the U.S.). Just leave individuals out of it unless they had a positive drug test. That's the only substantiation that counts. All else is heresay.
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Postby tafnut » Wed Jan 09, 2008 6:54 am

Andrea_T wrote:I am also confused as to why posters can call all GDR athletes cheats when their is only documentary evidence agaisnt some GDR athletes.


You're kidding, right? Poll 100 track experts from around the globe and ask them whether they think that there was systemic (i.e., if you are an EG track athlete, you WILL do as you're told (take PEDs) or you won't be wearing our singlet) doping. Realistically speaking, what do you suppose that the number of 'affirmative' answers will be? People said Marion was doping because there was SO much smoke, there HAD to be a fire. With the EG women, there was fire everywhere.
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Postby Powell » Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:22 am

tafnut wrote:Poll 100 track experts from around the globe and ask them whether they think that there was systemic (i.e., if you are an EG track athlete, you WILL do as you're told (take PEDs) or you won't be wearing our singlet) doping. Realistically speaking, what do you suppose that the number of 'affirmative' answers will be?


And while you're at it, ask the same experts whether they think Flo Jo was clean. If you're going to use the experts' opinion as basis for forum policy, at least be consistent.
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Postby bekeselassie » Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:28 am

Powell wrote:And while you're at it, ask the same experts whether they think Flo Jo was clean. If you're going to use the experts' opinion as basis for forum policy, at least be consistent.


Careful . . . gh is cracking down today.
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Postby gh » Wed Jan 09, 2008 9:40 am

Powell wrote:
tafnut wrote:Poll 100 track experts from around the globe and ask them whether they think that there was systemic (i.e., if you are an EG track athlete, you WILL do as you're told (take PEDs) or you won't be wearing our singlet) doping. Realistically speaking, what do you suppose that the number of 'affirmative' answers will be?


And while you're at it, ask the same experts whether they think Flo Jo was clean. If you're going to use the experts' opinion as basis for forum policy, at least be consistent.


tafnut does NOT speak for Board policy, which is quite simple: don't be implicating individuals. We will go so far as to stipulate that the DDR had an organized doping program (and the U.S. had a disorganized--but equally effective-- one). Doesn't mean that every DDR athlete was dirty; doesn't mean every U.S. one was. If you wanna talk the likelihood of the era, feel free. Just stay away from names.
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Postby tafnut » Wed Jan 09, 2008 11:28 am

gh wrote:
Powell wrote:
tafnut wrote:Poll 100 track experts from around the globe and ask them whether they think that there was systemic (i.e., if you are an EG track athlete, you WILL do as you're told (take PEDs) or you won't be wearing our singlet) doping. Realistically speaking, what do you suppose that the number of 'affirmative' answers will be?


And while you're at it, ask the same experts whether they think Flo Jo was clean. If you're going to use the experts' opinion as basis for forum policy, at least be consistent.


tafnut does NOT speak for Board policy


Especially since I was NOT stipulating ANY policy! I WAS, however, making the distinction between groups of people and individuals. The mention of FloJo is a red herring, precisely because I was NOT naming names. My opinion of her 'situation' is clearly ONLY an opinion. The FACT is that there was systemic doping in EG. And lots of western athletes chose to cheat as well.
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Postby bennyg » Wed Jan 09, 2008 12:40 pm

Then may I respectfully suggest, if it is NOT Board Policy to implicate individuals, as gh says, then a consistency of view would mean that the reference to ''suspect'' athletes, spelled out by name in Powell's'' Top 50 Olympic athletes'' article and introduced on this Forum recently, should cause the Powell List to be banned from this Forum, by definition.

The Powell article breaks the Board policy by referring to East German athletes by name who were not found personally guilty, but broadly suspected of benefiting from the E.G. Doping policies, and, much more to the point, the womens Olympic 100m Champion in 1988 is also mentioned specifically by name and banned from inclusion in Powell List, when we are all aware that the latter athlete was never found guilty of any misdemeanour.

Happy to abide by the Boards policy.

May I note all that the scurrilous attacks on Ohuruogu during last year,clearly hinting/suggesting that she was not clean because of her missed tests, were posted on this Forum and not disallowed, I believe
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Postby bad hammy » Wed Jan 09, 2008 2:57 pm

bennyg wrote:May I note all that the scurrilous attacks on Ohuruogu during last year,clearly hinting/suggesting that she was not clean because of her missed tests, were posted on this Forum and not disallowed, I believe

Well, she actually did serve a drug suspension. As I recall, after it was all over we concluded that she was just dumb, not dirty . . .
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Postby Jon » Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:17 am

bad hammy wrote:
bennyg wrote:May I note all that the scurrilous attacks on Ohuruogu during last year,clearly hinting/suggesting that she was not clean because of her missed tests, were posted on this Forum and not disallowed, I believe
Well, she actually did serve a drug suspension.
Benny isn't doubting that. I don't think anyone ever has, in fact. But Elders was coming out with some gems about Ohuruogu, I seem to recall.
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Postby eldrick » Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:30 am

i was following up the line that many greek posters promulgated :

if kk/thanou are all accused of taking drugs because of missed tests, then why not ohugo ?
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Postby eldrick » Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:33 am

anyhows, as for ddr, in franke's/berendonk's book, the stasi documents they retrieved showed ~20 elite ddr athletes on a doping program, but listed as code numbers & not names

they matched the list with number of elite ddr athletes in the squad at the time which quite miraculously was also ~20

only an idiot coud therefore claim that elite ddr athletes were NOT on drugs
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Postby Jon » Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:36 am

eldrick wrote:if kk/thanou are all accused of taking drugs because of missed tests, then why not ohugo ?
Because the circumstances were completely different. I know you'd probably love to argue about this but I'm not going to go over it all again - all the info is out there, should you wish to go through it.

Bottom line is: When the authorities reviewed all of the KK/Thanou evidence, they decided a ban and possible imprisonment was the worthy punishment.
When the authorities reviewed all of Ohuruogu's evidence, they lifted her lifetime and Olympic ban and said there was nothing untoward about it - just a case of her being forgetful and not realising how serious a mistake it was.
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Postby eldrick » Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:43 am

what do 99+% of track fans think about the athlete in question when they are given a ban for missed tests ?
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Postby Andrea_T » Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:46 am

To tafnut, the FACT is there was systematic doping in the US during the same period. Might not be the same system, but it was there, and plain to see.

And now Marion Jones, Kelly White, Torri Edwards, Christie Gaines, L Tasha Jenkins, Inger Miller...the backbone of the US sprint team for a decade, all failed tests (see gh, I'm within the rules!)
Seems to me something pretty systematic has been and is going on in the US.
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Postby Andrea_T » Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:49 am

eldrick wrote:anyhows, as for ddr, in franke's/berendonk's book, the stasi documents they retrieved showed ~20 elite ddr athletes on a doping program, but listed as code numbers & not names

they matched the list with number of elite ddr athletes in the squad at the time which quite miraculously was also ~20

only an idiot coud therefore claim that elite ddr athletes were NOT on drugs


No, I'd say only and idiot would equate ~20 to all GDR athletes.
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Postby eldrick » Thu Jan 10, 2008 1:53 am

read properly, the post said elite

i'm only interested in top-end
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Postby doug091463 » Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:11 am

i find it hard to enjoy the sport (and i think of myself as a fanatic) when no athlete can run a record without being accused of cheating, or even if an athlete improves a lot, has a personal best, or even runs better than a person who happens to post they are accused of cheating. i think there is cheating in sports as in all things, but i dont think we are at the point in history where human performance cant be improved with just good old hard training given to the 1 in 100 million people who posess the absolute gift for the sport..
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Postby Jon » Thu Jan 10, 2008 2:43 am

eldrick wrote:i'm only interested in top-end
Funny. Most of the things you post seem to come from the bottom end...
Last edited by Jon on Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Powell » Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:21 am

gh wrote:tafnut does NOT speak for Board policy, which is quite simple: don't be implicating individuals.


In that case, why is it OK to suggest, as Tafnut did above that GDR had a policy of "if you are an EG track athlete, you WILL do as you're told (take PEDs) or you won't be wearing our singlet"? That, to me, is implicating every single individual on the national team. Unless there is specific evidence that every single athlete was dirty, that is by no means within bounds of the board policy (I know I will be told it's not my call to make, but I'm entitled to an opinion). And in the past he stated every single East European athlete at the international level was using drugs. AFAIR, that post was never removed.
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Postby Andrea_T » Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:36 am

Hear hear!
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Postby eldrick » Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:43 am

Jon wrote:
eldrick wrote:i'm only interested in top-end
Funny. Most of the things you post seem to come from the bottom end...


at least i know where to find someone to scoop it up...
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Postby tafnut » Thu Jan 10, 2008 3:53 am

Powell wrote:And in the past he stated every single East European athlete at the international level was using drugs. AFAIR, that post was never removed.

REALLY? Every single one? I don't remember that and if I implied it, I recant. As Pego said, not ALL of them had regimes that could afford for ALL of them to be on it. And as far as the West having a systemic regime, clearly you are using the word 'systemic' in a way with which I am not familiar. The East Bloc countries were in ONE system - Soviet communism - and although the system varied from country to country, the GOVERNMENT 'enabled' PED usage. In the USA and many (perhaps not all) other western countries, they did NOT have a government-enabled system for PEDs. I agree (for the 100th time) that there was wide-spread western PED usage also.
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Postby Powell » Thu Jan 10, 2008 5:04 am

tafnut wrote:
Powell wrote:And in the past he stated every single East European athlete at the international level was using drugs. AFAIR, that post was never removed.

REALLY? Every single one? I don't remember that and if I implied it, I recant.


http://mb.trackandfieldnews.com/discuss ... torder=asc
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Postby tafnut » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:14 am

Powell wrote:
tafnut wrote:
Powell wrote:And in the past he stated every single East European athlete at the international level was using drugs. AFAIR, that post was never removed.

REALLY? Every single one? I don't remember that and if I implied it, I recant.

http://mb.trackandfieldnews.com/discuss ... torder=asc


tafnut wrote:because they were state-run programs and EVERYONE was in the program, they're all (relatively speaking) guilty. In America (and similarly 'free' states) the option to cheat was a personal one, so we're not sure how many did it (we CAN assume many). That's all one can infer from my statement.


While I abashedly admit Sloppy Thinking, apologize, and ask forgiveness, I would like to clarify what I said, by adding that - there was 'A Program' and, generally speaking, the INTENT of The Program was to get everybody on board, but my error (and I am sincerely sorry) is that not EVERYONE could have been on the program, if only for logistical reasons, but now I will add that there were probably coaches and athletes that successfully resisted The Program as well. I personally think that ALL the elite EG women WERE on PEDs, but that is clearly opinion. You may recall a previous post where I revealed a great affectiton and empathy for Germans (having lived there several times) and it grieves me to think how they were abused. I am not happy to think they were ALL (EG women of the 70s and 80s) cheaters.

Thanks for finding that link - I learn best from my own mistakes.
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Postby bekeselassie » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:28 am

tafnut wrote:While I abashedly admit Sloppy Thinking, apologize, and ask forgiveness, I would like to clarify what I said, by adding that - there was 'A Program' and, generally speaking, the INTENT of The Program was to get everybody on board, but my error (and I am sincerely sorry) is that not EVERYONE could have been on the program, if only for logistical reasons, but now I will add that there were probably coaches and athletes that successfully resisted The Program as well. I personally think that ALL the elite EG women WERE on PEDs, but that is clearly opinion. You may recall a previous post where I revealed a great affectiton and empathy for Germans (having lived there several times) and it grieves me to think how they were abused. I am not happy to think they were ALL (EG women of the 70s and 80s) cheaters.

Thanks for finding that link - I learn best from my own mistakes.


(Sigh!)

I think it's best that we all get ready for this kind of back-pedaling rant in the coming year. :roll: :P
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Postby Andrea_T » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:39 am

tafnut wrote: The East Bloc countries were in ONE system - Soviet communism - and although the system varied from country to country, the GOVERNMENT 'enabled' PED usage.


They were not one system at all, you've just said yourself it varied from country toc country. Each Warsaw pact country had it's own version of Soviet communism; they weren't all puppet governments. In practice what happened in East Germany does not mean the same went on in Yugoslavia or Czechoslovakia.
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Postby Powell » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:42 am

tafnut wrote:While I abashedly admit Sloppy Thinking, apologize, and ask forgiveness, I would like to clarify what I said, by adding that - there was 'A Program' and, generally speaking, the INTENT of The Program was to get everybody on board, but my error (and I am sincerely sorry) is that not EVERYONE could have been on the program, if only for logistical reasons, but now I will add that there were probably coaches and athletes that successfully resisted The Program as well.


Mhm, I could almost believe that's what you wanted to say all along, were it not for your earlier post in the thread I linked, where you said you considered all Eastern Bloc performances worthless.
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Postby gh » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:44 am

Andrea_T wrote:To tafnut, the FACT is there was systematic doping in the US during the same period. Might not be the same system, but it was there, and plain to see.

And now Marion Jones, Kelly White, Torri Edwards, Christie Gaines, L Tasha Jenkins, Inger Miller...the backbone of the US sprint team for a decade, all failed tests (see gh, I'm within the rules!)....


The mention of Miller is a tad unfair. Her "positive" was for caffeine, and calmer heads have since prevailed and removed that as a bannable offense.

And not to split semantic hairs, but Jenkins did not fail any test. By binding decision that's the case.
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Postby Pego » Thu Jan 10, 2008 6:56 am

gh wrote:
Andrea_T wrote:To tafnut, the FACT is there was systematic doping in the US during the same period. Might not be the same system, but it was there, and plain to see.

And now Marion Jones, Kelly White, Torri Edwards, Christie Gaines, L Tasha Jenkins, Inger Miller...the backbone of the US sprint team for a decade, all failed tests (see gh, I'm within the rules!)....


The mention of Miller is a tad unfair. Her "positive" was for caffeine, and calmer heads have since prevailed and removed that as a bannable offense.

And not to split semantic hairs, but Jenkins did not fail any test. By binding decision that's the case.


So is Edwards.

My name was mentioned earlier in the thread, so I'd like to re-state my position.
Prior to 1968 I am not aware of systematic doping program in Czechoslovakia. Post-1968 I am clueless.
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Postby Matt » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:27 am

Wasn't Miller one of the athletes caught up in the pre Sydney 2000 fiasco, though (thus her bizarre behaviour once the Games began)?
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Postby Andrea_T » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:38 am

Matt my god we must be psychopathically linked :P
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Postby MJD » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:38 am

For anyone who gets caught for anything that was against the rules at the time no matter how minor some may view the infractions, I just default to the position that that is all they got caught for and were doing other stuff and that includes the 19 year old Gatlin. I don't shed any tears for any of them. Others can give them the benefit of the doubt but I am not so naive(as some have been around here with other athletes).
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Postby gh » Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:58 am

Andrea_T has decided to take a vacation. Next?
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Postby marknhj » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:22 am

MJD wrote:For anyone who gets caught for anything that was against the rules at the time no matter how minor some may view the infractions, I just default to the position that that is all they got caught for and were doing other stuff and that includes the 19 year old Gatlin. I don't shed any tears for any of them. Others can give them the benefit of the doubt but I am not so naive(as some have been around here with other athletes).


That is my view too...
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Postby 26mi235 » Thu Jan 10, 2008 8:56 am

marknhj wrote:
MJD wrote:For anyone who gets caught for anything that was against the rules at the time no matter how minor some may view the infractions, I just default to the position that that is all they got caught for and were doing other stuff and that includes the 19 year old Gatlin. I don't shed any tears for any of them. Others can give them the benefit of the doubt but I am not so naive(as some have been around here with other athletes).


That is my view too...


I respectfully disagree. The Gatlin case is one of a prescribed med and there is an official trail that says that it was NOT a deliberate violation. "violations" such as for caffeine (and other 'common' substances), that were later removed tell us little about generalized intent, in my opinion.

I do have a question about how one might talk about a situation where Frank Shorter has pushed on the situation with Cierpinski -- I do not know about WC and would not be speculating but is it feasible to talk about Shorter's comments or about those of Werner Franke (German involved in anti-doping crusade)?
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Postby Mennisco » Sat Jan 12, 2008 7:49 am

Powell wrote:
gh wrote:tafnut does NOT speak for Board policy, which is quite simple: don't be implicating individuals.


In that case, why is it OK to suggest, as Tafnut did above that GDR had a policy of "if you are an EG track athlete, you WILL do as you're told (take PEDs) or you won't be wearing our singlet"? .


Yu vill eat za pill. Yu vill not leave za homeland or ve vill shoot u.
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Postby malmo » Sat Jan 12, 2008 11:31 am

Mennisco wrote:
Powell wrote:
gh wrote:tafnut does NOT speak for Board policy, which is quite simple: don't be implicating individuals.


In that case, why is it OK to suggest, as Tafnut did above that GDR had a policy of "if you are an EG track athlete, you WILL do as you're told (take PEDs) or you won't be wearing our singlet"? .


Yu vill eat za pill. Yu vill not leave za homeland or ve vill shoot u.


Und zee vill be varingz zee itchyscratchysuitzundpantzen madez frumz zee Pottsdam, vile zee uzzerz vill be varingz zee smoozuntsexysuitzundpantzen smugglez inz frumz zee Dusseldorf.

Zu vontz itchybuttz? Zu getz itchybuttz!
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