Gene doping again.


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Gene doping again.

Postby Daisy » Mon Jan 07, 2008 9:46 am

I see there is another article on the home page scaremongering that "gene doping" will be a reality in 2010. This is ridiculous in my opinion. The article discusses WADA funding to Jim Rupert who will be developing a test that will assay the gene expression profile to catch athletes who are "gene doping" for EPO.

A more complete article about this process can be found at playthegame.org that describes Rupert's work done in collaboration with Rob Parisotto (who has made some excellent posts on this forum).

But again I have to wonder, why would athletes gene dope when they can safely use synthetic EPO with a relatively low chance of being detected? With gene doping it will be practically impossible to control the dose and the result would be either lethal or no EPO, both undesirable.

It is possible they are referrring to the cartridge technology that Rob mentioned in an old post:

Rob Parisotto wrote:The cartridge technology involves using engineered cells programmed to release EPO at set rates and for anaemic patients especially those suffering from renal failure this means either no more transfusions and no more needle jabs.

http://mb.trackandfieldnews.com/discuss ... ht=#287780


But if so, that is not gene therapy just a more sophisticated external source of EPO. When these scientists and the IOC say "gene therapy" do they really mean it? Or are they just trying to sensationalise their stories?

Regardless, the test being developed will be good, if it works, as a secondary test for those athletes that do test positive for synthetic EPO.
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Postby eldrick » Mon Jan 07, 2008 11:37 am

it's sounds nonsense to claim to have a test already developed to combat a type of cheating which is still many years from being possible !
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Postby Mennisco » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:24 pm

eldrick wrote:it's sounds nonsense to claim to have a test already developed to combat a type of cheating which is still many years from being possible !


It is? :wink:
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Postby bekeselassie » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:26 pm

Go easy on eldy. American isn't his first language.
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Postby bekeselassie » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:27 pm

Pardon me -

or Canadian.
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Postby eldrick » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:46 pm

my god !

bex is back !

i hope him & menny don't become the harry & lloyd of this place ! :P
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Postby Daisy » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:58 pm

eldrick wrote:harry & lloyd

Too late. But, I thought Harold Lloyd was one person?
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Postby bekeselassie » Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:59 pm

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:






who? :?
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Postby Pego » Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:05 pm

1. Daisy is right, of course. All this "gene therapy" in near future is pure sci-fi.

2. Harry Dunne and Llloyd Christmas are doubtless among my all time favorite movies. Perhaps even above Beavis and Butthead.
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Postby Daisy » Mon Jan 07, 2008 1:31 pm

Pego wrote:All this "gene therapy" in near future is pure sci-fi.


Which is exactly why they talk about it. Gets you funding and headline news. But, it's pure BS. signed Cynical Bastard.
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Gene "Modification"

Postby James Fields » Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:05 pm

Pego wrote: "Daisy is right, of course. All this "gene therapy" in near future is pure sci-fi."
--------
I can't comment regarding gene "therapy" but I can share a brief news item from the current issue of Knoxville's Metro Pulse newspaper:

"A research team led by Richard Hanson of Case Western Reserve University has produced a colony of 'supermice.' . . . By modifying a single metabolism gene, researchers enhanced the mouse's ability to use body fat for energy, creating a mouse that can run five hours without stopping. . . . According to Hanson, humans have eactly the same modifiable gene..."
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Postby Novitiate » Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:20 pm

bekeselassie wrote:Go easy on eldy. American isn't his first language.


Apparently spelling and English grammar are not subjects Mennisco should claim to be qualified to teach:

http://tinyurl.com/33f96v

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/its

:twisted:
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Re: Gene "Modification"

Postby Daisy » Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:24 pm

James Fields wrote:Pego wrote: "Daisy is right, of course. All this "gene therapy" in near future is pure sci-fi."
--------
I can't comment regarding gene "therapy" but I can share a brief news item from the current issue of Knoxville's Metro Pulse newspaper:

"A research team led by Richard Hanson of Case Western Reserve University has produced a colony of 'supermice.' . . . By modifying a single metabolism gene, researchers enhanced the mouse's ability to use body fat for energy, creating a mouse that can run five hours without stopping. . . . According to Hanson, humans have eactly the same modifiable gene..."


But note that those transgenic mice were made from the transformation of a stem cell that is then made into a mouse. So unless we started making these superhumans ten to fifteen years ago there is little chance of them hitting the 2010 olympics. Not to mention that they cherry pick the mice that show the desired trait for the papers. Due to gene silencing, which is common, only some of those mice that were made will have the endurance trait.

To do the same in an already developed human would require an adenovirus vector to introduce the gene. This technology exists but the chances of the gene functioning correctly are slim. The chances of side effects that make the individual non-competitive are high. Worse for the gene dopers, what is to stop the testers indentifying this new gene using PCR techniques once it is inserted?

All in all this is a non starter and the hypers must know it.
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Postby Novitiate » Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:32 pm

Maybe Alvin Toffler should write a book about X-Mice, the transgenderically altered species that can dance for 500 hours to "I Will Survive"....
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Re: Gene "Modification"

Postby Daisy » Mon Jan 07, 2008 2:46 pm

Daisy wrote:
James Fields wrote:"A research team led by Richard Hanson of Case Western Reserve University has produced a colony of 'supermice.' . . . By modifying a single metabolism gene, researchers enhanced the mouse's ability "


Not to mention that they cherry pick the mice that show the desired trait for the papers. Due to gene silencing, which is common, only some of those mice that were made will have the endurance trait.


Here are the actual numbers from their paper.

Of the 34 mice that were produced, only six positive founders, were chosen for further study. (designated A, B, C, D, E and F)

And even these did not show a high enough level of gene expression. To really boost it they had to mate C and D together to get mice that had both C and D new genes. And then mate mice with both C and D genes to get grandchildren mice with two copies of both C and D genes.

So given this "success rate" our gene doping engineers would have to have started about 50 years ago and encouraged two rounds of inbreeding to get these ultra marathoners. Some chance of this before 2010, if ever.
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Re: Gene "Modification"

Postby Athleticsimaging » Mon Jan 07, 2008 3:26 pm

Daisy wrote:So given this "success rate" our gene doping engineers would have to have started about 50 years ago and encouraged two rounds of inbreeding to get these ultra marathoners. Some chance of this before 2010, if ever.


Will you please stop undermining hype with actual facts or you'll end up substantially reducing worldwide rabies diagnoses...
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Re: Gene "Modification"

Postby eldrick » Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:19 am

Daisy wrote:To do the same in an already developed human would require an adenovirus vector to introduce the gene


they were telling us in the early '90s that they were working on a gene-therapy cure for cystic fibrosis by inhaling a presumed vector containing the modified gene ( to get to the lungs which is organ most affected, albeit whole body is afflicted )

15y later, i don't know if they got anywhere ( too lazy to look it up - daisy probably got info )
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Postby Mennisco » Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:10 am

Imagine an athlete named Jean Doe Ping. Not impossible.
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Re: Gene "Modification"

Postby Daisy » Tue Jan 08, 2008 10:38 am

eldrick wrote:15y later, i don't know if they got anywhere ( too lazy to look it up - daisy probably got info )


In 2001 it was just around the corner. I believe they still have "reliable expression" problems, of course they will not admit it unless they have to. . :roll: And they do have to face reality with a phase 3 trial, no amount of their hype can make get it through if it does not work.

(actually, I'm not sure it even got to phase 2)
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