Also, FloJo's "unbeatable" record is 'tainted' because it is a flawed record -- 10.49 was so clearly wind-aided that it is not even in play. The WR is 10.6x; still very difficult to break but not quite in the same league.
Is your 'evidence' of wrong doing just that she ran super times? If you are talking about her early death, there are some pretty knowledgeable doctors in these parts who have strongly refuted that conclusion.
Kedéris won the World Champs 200 in '01, was 2nd in the Euro Cup 100 w/ his still-standing PR of 10.15. Won the 200 at the '02 Euros (with his still-standing PR of 19.85), won the Euro Cup 200 again in '03.
Thánou won 100 bronze in the '01 WC, was 4th in '03, with '02 Euro title in between.
What I should have said was that they skipped racing during the interim 4 years and only ran in a few of the major meets.
Correct me if I am wrong: Its possible to use steroids for training to build up muscle then quit using the steroids a short while before a major meet. There will be no trace of steroids in your body but the effects of training with steroids (namely muscle) will still be there.
By skipping the season and only appearing in a few major meets you can avoid being tested during the season. Its hard enough to ctach a person doping even if you test them often. But if you only test them during major meets, its virtually impossible.
Unless Kenteris And Thanou were tested in between those races then there is no really no way of knowing whether they doped. And as they proved in 2004, they were both very adept at dodging drug tests even to the point of staging an accident.
it's irrelevant whether they competed 100/year or once when it comes to testing
they may have avoided tests in '04, but both were global champs & kk especially, as reigning og champ was tested until his bladder hurt between sydney - athens, obviously, nearly all ooc as he didn't compete much
cheats will have had drugs out of their system for a good few weeks prior to them, so really, only an idiot gets caught testing +ve at a champs ( not stopping drugs early enough & still deciding to compete )
obviously, if you are on undetectable drugs, then that doesn't apply
iirc, wada/ioc/iaaf "target-tested" kk after sydney as they were suspicious of his win ( even though it was a crap time & b default ) & he was geting tested 10+/year between sydney-athens
presumably he managed to have the drugs out of his system for those, but it's a tough game to play & had to throw in some missed tests to survive
Paulthefan wrote, "Every finalist should be a medalist. Then the only changes are in the alloy given."
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Yes, medals and related recognition beyond third place is reasonable for the high level of competition in the Olympics.
How far, beyond third, should be uniform, but not "every finalist" can be uniform because that number varies, e.g eight in lane races, more in distance races of 1500m and longer.
Medals might be awarded to six, or even eight, although for finishers rather than finalists -- so that a medal is not awarded to a finalist who fails to finish for any reason including ejection for a false start.
As to "alloy," pewter can be very attractive for all the places after third. For visualization, look at pewter cups from Norway.
I disagree 100% with everything you say. From the articles I am reading, Thanou and Kenteris have turned dodging drug tests into an artform with plenty of help from Greek officials.
In the other Poseidon Adventure, the Hollywood version, Gene Hackman and most of his fellow star-passengers managed to survive, but the ship sank without trace. The chances are that Kenteris and Thanou, having dodged two drugs tests too far, in Chicago on Monday and in the Olympic village on Thursday, will go the same way as the stricken vessel.
Their real-life disaster movie has been a long, long time in reaching a denouement. At Sydney, when Kenteris emerged from obscurity to win the 200m ahead of Darren Campbell, he was asked at his victory press conference, in the bowels of Stadium Australia, how many times he had been tested for drugs. Before he could reply, his coach, Christos Tzekos, barged on to the stage, grabbed the microphone, and bellowed: "Three or four times. Now, are you satisfied?"
The silence was deafening. Just six months earlier, Kenteris had finished last in the 200m final at the European Indoor Championships in Ghent. His name was conspicuously absent from the 2,500 athletes profiled in the 2004 edition of Who's Who in World Athletics.
His anonymity was such, in fact, that the former British international Mark Richardson was unaware until informed by The Independent on Sunday yesterday that Kenteris had finished behind him in the 400m final at the 1991 European Junior Championships in Thessaloniki. "I didn't know I'd ever run against him," Richardson said. "I can't remember him at all. He wasn't on the radar then."
Kenteris has long since made a name for himself; a name, for the record, which he prefers to translate from Greek to English as Kenteris, as carried by the ferry and the street named after him in his home village in Lesbos, rather than the less frequently used Kederis. He has, however, made a habit of disappearing off the radar when the drugs testers happen to be on his trail. As mentioned in these pages a week ago, he and Thanou have become a pair of Scarlet Pimpernels. The testers sought them here and sought them there, but instead of being in Crete, as they had informed their national federation, the Hellenic Amateur Athletic Association, they were actually in Qatar. Tzekos was reprimanded for not declaring their correct location, as required by the laws of the International Association of Athletics Federations, and the IAAF also issued the Greek federation with an official warning.
It was nothing new for Tzekos. Back in 1997, he was banned for two years by the IAAF for employing what were described as "strong-arm tactics" to prevent four of his athletes from undergoing drugs tests at an indoor meeting in Germany. And in 2002, Kenteris and Thanou were among a number of Greek athletes withdrawn overnight from the starting lists at the Athens Grand Prix when an IAAF testing team turned up unannounced at the athletes' hotel.
Later that summer, despite not having competed outside of their country, Kenteris and Thanou both surged to commanding victories at the European Championships in Munich - leaving a stream of disgruntled rivals in their wake. Kim Gevaert, who finished second to Thanou in the women's 100m final, told the Belgian press: "I can't help thinking the gold medal should be mine. I don't think she is clean. She's always hiding."
In Cyprus yesterday, preparing for the Olympics, Gevaert was reluctant to take developments as a definite sign that Thanou had nowhere left to hide. "I just hope the authorities will treat their case the same as athletes from other countries."
Having seen the Greek sprinters keep the testers on the run for so long, their rivals are not banking on them being caught this time. Avoiding two tests, however, is a suspendable offence under the rules of the International Olympic Committee. And, while the hospitalisation of Kenteris and Thanou has bought them three days' grace before facing an IOC disciplinary committee, it has provoked more suspicion than sympathy.
An IOC member, who asked to remain anonymous, confided: "We know there was an accident but people are wondering what actually happened. There is a great deal of suspicion and confusion."
Now Eldrick I urge you for the sake of debate to present an article that supports your claim that both Thanou and Kenteris were tested 10 times a year as you claim.
Without evidence or supporting documents, all claims made in such a debate are mute. Anyone can come to this forum and make a claim about anything.
Also IMO, testing a gold medallist 10 times a year is insufficient. Suspect athletes who have won medals should be tested year round at least once a week
K7, you:ll also find that in 2003 when the IAAF arrived at the address they had been given for Kenteris in Crete, they discovered that he and Thanou were training in Qatar. When drug-testing officials from the IOC turned up in Athens in july 2004, the two fled Greece to train in Chicago.
For me the evidence seems to suggest that those two cheeky athletes are very adept at dodging dope tests. You can see quotes from athletes like Gevaert and incriminating words from T&F officials. One has to feel sorry for runners like Gevaert, Lauryn Williams etc who are cheated out of medals.
I highly doubt that if I go to the dope board from 2-3 yrs ago, I will find evidence that those two were tested 10 times a year as you claim. It’s a needle in a haystack kind of thing. Plus the message board you suggest basically amounts to the opinions of forummers. Nothing substantial. Like I said, opinions are free and everyone has one. I can easily claim that Flo Jo was tested 20 times in 1988. But where’s the proof ?
kamikaze7 wrote:I highly doubt that if I go to the dope board from 2-3 yrs ago, I will find evidence that those two were tested 10 times a year as you claim. It’s a needle in a haystack kind of thing. Plus the message board you suggest basically amounts to the opinions of forummers. Nothing substantial. Like I said, opinions are free and everyone has one. I can easily claim that Flo Jo was tested 20 times in 1988. But where’s the proof ?
there are ancient links in those dope forums - iirc, one quoting kk stating he'd been tested numerous times between start '04 - athens
as for flojo, the only way she couda been tested 20 times in '88 was if she'd competed at 20 meets that year - no random testing in '88
I'm beginning to think that results should stand as soon as the post-competition tests are passed. Records can be removed, but this could get ridiculous. And how far back will we go.? Will we undo 1996 results if we find that someone is dirty in 2008?
GeorgiaFan1 wrote:I'm beginning to think that results should stand as soon as the post-competition tests are passed. Records can be removed, but this could get ridiculous. And how far back will we go.? Will we undo 1996 results if we find that someone is dirty in 2008?
no, because there is a statute of limitations of 7 years as i understand it MJ originally admitted drug abuse from 99 but changed it to 00 when she realised she couldn't be done for 8 years ago.
anyway no-one has suggested retroactive penalties for + tests only if there is evidence or the athlete has admitted past drug taking.
mump boy wrote:as i understand it MJ originally admitted drug abuse from 99 but changed it to 00 when she realised she couldn't be done for 8 years ago
not sure if that's true
'99 was before balco & thg, so if mj was on any drugs then, it wouda been likely to have been "standard" ones like ole-style anabolics, etc
she never tested +ve for these between '97 - '99, so we'd have to go with her test results
Marion Jones, in a letter to family and friends wrote:In 1999, my track coach Trevor Graham provided me with some nutritional supplements. There is one in particular that he called 'flaxseed oil.' He advised me to take this supplement by placing a few drops under my tongue and then swallow. He told me that it was necessary to add this to my diet so that I could be in peak running shape. I, unfortunately, never asked him any questions about it. I trusted him and never thought for one second that he would jeopardize my career, nor his own. He told me to administer it by placing a few drops under my tongue for a few seconds and then to swallow. He supplied me this for the 1999 and 2000 seasons.
1999 for all intents and purposes wasn:t pre-BALCO.
Victor Conte wrote:In the spring of 1999, I was at another bodybuilding show when someone offered me a clear liquid. I won't tell you who gave it to me. All I'll say is he called it "The Stuff." I assumed it was some sort of pro-hormone. It was norbolethone, the first generation of "The Clear."
According to Conte, Montgomery was on PEDs pre-2000, and had been using whilst a trainee under Graham, who was also coaching Jones.
Marion Jones, in a letter to family and friends wrote:In 1999, my track coach Trevor Graham provided me with some nutritional supplements. There is one in particular that he called 'flaxseed oil.' He advised me to take this supplement by placing a few drops under my tongue and then swallow. He told me that it was necessary to add this to my diet so that I could be in peak running shape. I, unfortunately, never asked him any questions about it. I trusted him and never thought for one second that he would jeopardize my career, nor his own. He told me to administer it by placing a few drops under my tongue for a few seconds and then to swallow. He supplied me this for the 1999 and 2000 seasons.
1999 for all intents and purposes wasn:t pre-BALCO.
Victor Conte wrote:In the spring of 1999, I was at another bodybuilding show when someone offered me a clear liquid. I won't tell you who gave it to me. All I'll say is he called it "The Stuff." I assumed it was some sort of pro-hormone. It was norbolethone, the first generation of "The Clear."
unfortunately, this is not consistent with arnold's admission :
In pleading guilty, Mr. Arnold, 39, of Champaign, Illinois, admitted that between June 1, 2000, and September 3, 2003, while working as an organic chemist in Champaign, Illinois, he knowingly participated in a conspiracy to illegally distribute steroids and other performance-enhancing drugs to professional athletes. Mr. Arnold admitted that as a part of the conspiracy, he developed, manufactured, and distributed the following substances: (1) a synthetic and undetectable steroid-like derivative, tetrahydragestrinone, also known as “THG or “The Clear;”
as he was working hand-in-glove with vic at the time, it is inconceivable he started to distribute thg at a later date then conte did
Regarding your argument, recall the story. I:m citing both Arnold (below) and Conte (above), or, in other words, not a script the US DOJ put together.
"It all started because Victor Conte called me up and asked me if any of the prohormones I made could be used by athletes and not be detected. I told him, You shouldn't use them because I can't guarantee [that they want to be detected]. But this was a friend, a guy whose knowledge I respected, and so I also told him. A better way would be to try [norbolothone, which Arnold had synthesized in 1988], because I don't think it will show up on any drug test. And that sort of opened up Pandora box" Patrick Arnold says,
mojo wrote:The name calling posters get around here is over the top at times but what is far worse IMHO is the names athletes get called by certain people.
IF I ran the board THAT would get you banned immediately.We have a choice whether to put up with getting called an idiot but athletes in the sport the magazine and this board should honour and respect do not deserve it.
(unless they are drug cheats and even then name calling is not really appropriate-though YES I am guilty too).
Well I must say that the notion of an athlete consigning an airborne shag to what is muttered on this board is transparently delusional. Not exactly major media converage, or even minor.
eldrick wrote:i see you conveniently ignored the following part of fed quote :
(2) Desoxymethyltestosterone, also known as “DMT,” or “Madol;” and (3) norbolethone, an anabolic steroid
Actually, you left that part off your original quote. It was not an omission on my part. I believed in the Feds then, and still do now. You:re interested in quoting a DOJ briefing. I:m interested in what the two characters in the story have to say about their involvement.
Concluding this two-person discussion which should have not made it to page three:
"as he was working hand-in-glove with vic at the time, it is inconceivable he started to distribute thg at a later date then conte did"
Norbolethone wasn:t THG, and Arnold switched Conte from norbolethone to THG in 2001. Arnold then packaged THG as the clear and sold to other coaches, agents, athletes. He did, in fact, distribute this "new" drug after supplying to Conte, when Conte had saturated the market and made a mess of things.
One was trying to throw water balloons in the dark and call people names when they didn:t care to get wet...naturally, not having an umbrella to shield the unwanted rain, things got sloppy and wet. The only pissing here was done in the perps pants when the cops, watching wearily from above, yelled, "hej, you, juvenile... cease and desist, or be thrown in the huskow".
Point very well taken. Don:t feed the contrary trolls.
Jones became engaged to known 'roider CJ Hunter in 1996. She started training with known steroid-pusher Trevor Graham in 1998 (or so). She became associated with Victor Conte and BALCO in summer of 2000.
There is evidence Graham, through Tim Montgomery met Conte in 2000 too. However it is highly likely his use of pharmaceutics began long before 'Project World Record'.
If Jones was clean from 1996 on, I would be very surprised, It's just that Conte refined doping to an art form in 2000 for Jones.
Snation wrote:As I read it the evidence against Flo-Jo is theoretical at best.
Far more disconcerting would be those GDR records like Koch's set by athletes who never tested positive, but ran for a very suspect regime.
If one wants to crush dopers, then that record should be obliterated.
If one uses circumstantial evidence, be prepared to throw out the baby with the bath at times.
The circumstantial evidence against FloJo is really quite strong, and follows the pattern of many known 'dopers'.
She had been competing for years, and had been pretty good, but never great. Her highest ranking had 5th in 200m and 6th in 100m. She took some time off.
She returned to the sprinting, and suddenly was the greatest of all-time, running other-worldy times.
She set her records, got her Olympic medals, random dope testing was instituted the next year, and she promptly retired.
Actually, that circumstantial evidence is about as strong as it gets.
Certainly as strong as the evidence against the E. Germans, because there is no 'before' and 'after' period with them to compare.
So you should heed your own advise about throwing out the baby with the bath water.
