Why the California HS state meet is the best


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Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby dl » Fri Jun 06, 2003 7:55 am

One division. Yes, one. The nation's most populous states crowns just one state champion in each event. Heck, doesn't Michigan's northern peninsula have three divisions! A state title for everyone!

Okay, if you like quantity over quality, perhaps other state meets are for you. But if you win a state meet title in the Golden State, you know you're the best in your state.

The best thing about regionals is that now the NCAA meet no longer conflicts with the Cal State high school meet!

dan (exaggerating state pride to stir up a bit of interstate trashtalking! ) :-)
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby gm » Fri Jun 06, 2003 9:20 am

That's just great since your schools there can recruit outside their districts, etc.

You also don't have too many schools playing six-man football, do ya?
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby Guest » Fri Jun 06, 2003 9:51 am

We here at the NCAA are working to ban the California state meet because it promotes--i can hardly say the word--competition.

Our plan is that each of the 14 million high school kids in California will get their own division and run their own race and evrybody can be champion! Imagine the glory for the coaching community--every school's coach can claim a coupla hundred state champs! What a resume-builder!
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby dl » Fri Jun 06, 2003 9:54 am

Private schools can get kids from wherever, but public schools can't. Besides, it's the public schools that dominate track anyway.

Of course, this doesn't mean that kids don't use gramma's address in another district to attend another school, but that practice isn't unique to California.
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby Guest » Fri Jun 06, 2003 10:59 am

>Private schools can get kids from wherever, but
>public schools can't. Besides, it's the public
>schools that dominate track anyway.

Sure, and Long Beach Poly's teams use neighborhood kids, if the neighborhood is all of SoCal. States with muitiple classes recognize that the the differences between mega-schools with 4,000+ students and rural schools with less than a 100 don't make for fair competition. Facilities, coaching, budget, travel all play a part. Californis can keep their simple solution to a complex question.
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby blacklily » Fri Jun 06, 2003 11:14 am

Yet you forget that Allyson Felix comes from a small school! L.A. Baptist has no more than 600 students. So a tiny school CAN produce a top athlete. I like that California has one champion for one state. No coddling to parents & coaches, who want to make it easier for THEIR kid to hold up a phony title. When you're California champ, you are TRULY the state champ.
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby Guest » Fri Jun 06, 2003 12:00 pm

I was watching the PIAA, the Pennsylvania state meet a couple of weeks ago.

The city of Philadelphia doesn't belong to it..

however, next year the PUBLIC school system will..

The annoucers were discussing the significant impact adding Philadelphia would have.

I'm NOT totally aware of the qualifying details, BUT the main point of interest is PHILADELPHIA is an OPEN SCHOOL district. Any student, anywhere can apply go to any school anywhere within the CITY.

So basically there are NO geographic hindrances..

the big change will be basketball, where if you looked at the top 20 teams in the state, 10 would be in the city itself, and 5 in the neighboring counties...

any PAC-10 BB fans out there, watch Mustafa Shakur whose from Friends CEntral here and is going to Arizona...

Jason Kidd = Mustafa Shakur or the other way around
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby dj » Fri Jun 06, 2003 12:07 pm

"I'm NOT totally aware of the qualifying details, BUT the main point of interest is PHILADELPHIA is an OPEN SCHOOL district. Any student, anywhere can apply go to any school anywhere within the CITY."

PIAA schools from suburban and rural schools in Pennsylvania are open to kids from other districts for an out-of-district fee which, although I don't the figure, is far from prohibitive. Which means the entire system is open to abuse, or free-choice--however you choose to view it.
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby Guest » Fri Jun 06, 2003 12:33 pm

yeah i think thats kinda tyte. texas should do somethin like that. i think it would be real nice to see all the class 1A through 5A race and crown one winner. i would have loved to race a couple of the guys who were fast and were at the state meet in 98. but we wasnt i the same class.
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby Guest » Fri Jun 06, 2003 2:03 pm

The kids have to run a lot more races to make the state finals. What they call the "State Meet" in Texas is the equivalent of the "Sectionals" in CA. For instance, the So. Cal CIF has its 1-A, 2-A, etc. championships, and the following week, it has the "Master's Meet" - the CIF championship, with the best from the divisions squaring off. And that's after having to go through the prelims for each division. It's close to the same for the rest of the state. Yeah, kids do lie, or more correctly, the parents lie in order to get kids to schools that are known for having strong programs, but that goes on all over the country. The rules against it aren't enforced all that well in certain areas, due to it not being "PC". However, it's still tougher to make the state meet finals in CA than anywhere else. The flip side is that some kids are burned out by the time the national meets roll around.
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby sl » Fri Jun 06, 2003 3:30 pm

Henry Rono, during his time at Wazoo, was said to have been perplexed by the multiple divisions in NCAA collegiate running, the NAIA and JUCO. "Does every American runner need to be a champion?" he asked.

When you look around at the way most states conduct their "State" meets, I'd have to ask that question also. Seems there is a strong current of that kind of thinking running through our culture.

So you're from a small school and not good enough to make it to State in California? Oh, well. Most of us survive without ever competing in the Olympics. Seems most of the other states could learn a thing or two about the realities of life and the distribution of talent from the Golden State meet--a meet that really counts for something.
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby jhc68 » Fri Jun 06, 2003 4:53 pm

Seems like the California system is better, at least for states with big population. CA is right,the CIF Southern Section Finals offer team competition in 4 divisions with roughly equal school sizes. And Allyson Felix ran in the smallest school division at that meet but will (I assume) win a couple of state championships tomorrow. It is great coup for the student and the community when small school kids win the California State Meet and establish that they are true "state" champions. It can be done. During the past 20 years our local school has varied between 600-900 students but produced two state mile champions and, most recently, a shot champion. There is little chance for a small school to win a team title these days (except behind the power of a super-athlete like Felix) but it is still a great system for individuals.
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby gm » Fri Jun 06, 2003 9:37 pm

hell, why have any weight divisions in wrestling/boxing, either? it's the same sport!

if you little dudes can't hang, too bad

keep having your state HS meet in nutland somewhere near Labor Day and we'll keep ours where and how we have it, OK?
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby jhc68 » Fri Jun 06, 2003 9:42 pm

Calm down ! Do whatever you like, it is just that the California format is better :-D
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby Guest » Sat Jun 07, 2003 2:57 pm

The problem is, California thinks they're soooo much better than everyone. The fact is, in the past 10 years, maybe more, you definitely take a back seat to Texas on the men's side and in some years Florida is just as good or better. Cal women are riding a peak, but everything ends eventually. Quit being so preachy, I used to look forward to the Cal state meet, now I just want to see how badly your men fair against Texas. Most years you would be good comp for TX 3A or 4A. You'll have to go though qualifying before going against 5A.
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby jhc68 » Sat Jun 07, 2003 5:22 pm

You are right, Texas and Fla. performances are outstanding, better lots of times and with more depth than California these days. It just seems like it would be even more exciting for spectators and runners if all the very best Texas kids ran against one another.
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby Guest » Sat Jun 07, 2003 5:30 pm

No, the CA state meet is a better set up than the meets in Fla and Texas. The level of talent has gone down a bit in CA though, a lot of it due to the influx of illegals and their dependency on taxpayer funded social services (thus making for higher taxes on individuals and businesses) forcing a lot of individuals to move to other states - not only whites, but blacks as well, in the lower and middle classes. The set up is good in CA, but the performances ... they are not as consistently as good as they used to be. Texas was always strong in sprints, and now has some great distance stars as well. Fla has improved in all areas. It would be nice to see the top kids in those states square off to see one state champ in each event.
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby Guest » Sat Jun 07, 2003 5:47 pm

Only problem with 1 division is you essentially take away the team aspect of a state meet. No small school will be competitive in the 4x100m, 4x400m, 4x800m, 4x200m (girls in Ohio). If you don't care about team competition this will not matter to you, but I like the teams fighting for school honors, and no school w/250 kids can compete against one with 1500 kids for a team title. Just a thought.

By the way, at the state meet today in Ohio the top performance was a stellar 4:06 1600m by Jeff See of Middletown, OH (63, 63, 64, 56). Most impressive - he is a sophomore!! A name to watch.
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby Guest » Sat Jun 07, 2003 6:08 pm

That would make him about as fast, or faster than Ryun as a soph if it was 4:06 flat, right?

I can only hope that the country is hitting a period where we will see some of these kids develop into threats at the elite level.
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby Guest » Sat Jun 07, 2003 6:26 pm

>The level of talent has
>gone down a bit in CA though, a lot of it due to
>the influx of illegals and their dependency on
>taxpayer funded social services (thus making for
>higher taxes on individuals and businesses)
>forcing a lot of individuals to move to other
>states - not only whites, but blacks as well, in
>the lower and middle classes.

Right, like this is hardly an issue in Texas or Florida.
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby Guest » Sat Jun 07, 2003 6:39 pm

But Ryun as a soph ran the 1609m -- not the 1600m.
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby Guest » Sat Jun 07, 2003 6:55 pm

yalls girls aint bad butthe boys are avg.no 40. yet,xman owns calli ,texas 39.35 all dfw relay at the GSW says it all!
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby Guest » Sun Jun 08, 2003 7:04 am

Maybe other states are just as bad, but does Texas have a lot of success (i.e., good marks?) simply because so many of it's kids are older?

I remember being struck by this in 2002 when it turned out that Texas had three State sprint champs who aren't juniors this year.

Brendan Christian was 18 at state, turned 19 before year was out.
Kelly Willie was 19 turned 20.
Edorian McCullough was 20 all year.

In a "normal" state I'd expect about half (5/12ths actually) of the kids to be just 17, turning 18. Huge difference there.
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby Guest » Sun Jun 08, 2003 8:08 am

We could probably find similar "snapshots" of CA (or any other state's) athletes.
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby Guest » Sun Jun 08, 2003 8:27 am

>We could probably find similar "snapshots" of
>CA (or any other state's) athletes.>>

Be my guest.
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby Guest » Sun Jun 08, 2003 8:48 am

ivory williams is da shyt now in texas. and still a junior
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby Guest » Sun Jun 08, 2003 8:58 am

Yeah, an 18-year-old junior! (Thanks for firming up my case.)
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby Guest » Sun Jun 08, 2003 10:21 am

>>We could probably find similar "snapshots"
>of
>CA (or any other state's) athletes.>>

Be
>my guest.


It doesn't really matter, does it?
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby Guest » Sun Jun 08, 2003 11:02 am

Well it certainly matters in the sense that if we've have a debate over the merits of CA vs TX and one of them is using primarily 17-18 athletes and the other is using 18-19, the paramters are skewed mightily.
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby Guest » Sun Jun 08, 2003 11:28 am

You honestly believe that the former is PRIMARY in one place but not the other and that the latter occurs ONLY in the other? Quit imagining things, save the conspiracy theories for when you brunch with Oliver Stone.
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby Guest » Sun Jun 08, 2003 11:51 am

Bad writing on my part. The primarily should have been used in both places.
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby Guest » Sun Jun 08, 2003 12:18 pm

Texas follows the same rules as EVERYONE else. If you are 19 after September 1 you are eligible. Quit trying to make California some paragon of virtual. Your residence rules make a joke of "neighborhood schools".
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby The Professor » Sun Jun 08, 2003 12:56 pm

>Quit trying to make California some paragon of
virtual.<

You are wise to remain anonymous.
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby Guest » Sun Jun 08, 2003 1:05 pm

>Bad writing on my part. The primarily should
>have been used in both places.

Bad thinking on your part, too.
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby The Flash » Mon Jun 09, 2003 6:17 am

Dan--I have a question for you. Do you know where I can find the "overall" state records for high school Track and Field in the state of California? Can state records only be set in the "state meet", or can the be set any time there is the proper meet equipment (ie wind guage, FAT, etc.)? Thanks!
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby Guest » Mon Jun 09, 2003 6:48 am

>Texas follows the same rules as EVERYONE else. If
>you are 19 after September 1 you are eligible.
>Quit trying to make California some paragon of
>virtual. Your residence rules make a joke of
>"neighborhood schools".>>

If that's the case, please explain how in 2002 Edorian McCullough ran the entire season even though he turned 20 on January 6 (so he was 20 the entire season) and Kelly Willie turned 20 on September 7. I'd be very surprised if all states have the same rules. Suspect some are based on what year you were born, others on how old you are when the school year starts. A state that follows the latter rule would have an advantage.

As to California residence rules, what does that have to do with the discussion of ages? I never brought up residency. I don't live in California and know nothing of what they do there. I noted a statistican anomaly and commented on it. I keep asking somebody to prove that there's a lots of "older" stars in other states, but nobody has done so yet.
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby Guest » Mon Jun 09, 2003 7:37 am

Older stars in other states:
Paul Cross in Florida has been 19 for a long time. Sam Zasquez of Florida is 19 now, although I don't know when he turned 19.
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby CoachKoby » Mon Jun 09, 2003 8:03 am

That's Sam Vasquez
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby huh? » Mon Jun 09, 2003 9:05 am

>Paul Cross in Florida has been 19 for a long time.<

A long time? More than a year?
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Re: Why the California HS state meet is the best

Postby dl » Mon Jun 09, 2003 10:21 am

<<<Dan--I have a question for you. Do you know where I can find the "overall" state records for high school Track and Field in the state of California? Can state records only be set in the "state meet", or can the be set any time there is the proper meet equipment (ie wind guage, FAT, etc.)? Thanks!>>>

Greg-No, I don't know of a site with Cal HS records. The CIF site does not have them. And I'm not sure what records they'd keep anyway. Perhaps just state meet records.

In any case, you could easily deduce the best marks by Cal HS athletes from our boys prep editor's amazing High School Track annuan, available by e-mailing shepwest@aol.com
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