doping: a modest proposal for a statute of limitations


This Forum was created to divert traffic from Current Events at the height of the BALCO scandal. It comes and goes as "needed"; it's back to being locked.

Should the results stand after 24 hours?

Poll ended at Mon Nov 19, 2007 4:22 pm

We should track down cheaters forever
12
67%
24 hours may not be the right number but something would be
6
33%
 
Total votes : 18

Postby oldvaulter » Sun Nov 18, 2007 2:42 pm

Dave wrote:I seem to remember as a kid reading about steroid use at the Mexico City games along with payoffs from the shoe companies. This is a very very old problem.


Were drugs illegal in 1968? I've been wondering about this. I think I asked this question on this forum several years ago but either I didn't get a definitive answer or else I've forgotten it: When were drugs outlawed in track and field?

It seems logical that if retroactive nullification and revision of results is the rule, as the majority evidently favor in the poll here, that the cut off would be when the drugs were made illegal. All results in all competitions affected by the drug ban are tentative since that time. We haven't had a definitive Olympic champion since the last Olympics held without rules regarding PEDs. Even the King's "Jesse Owens" accomplishment in 1984, as well as his four LJ golds in row, are only tentative results. They're not final. As long as there is no statute of limitations allowing the certification of truly final results, nothing is decided.

New technologies will be developed. King Carl's body will be exhumed in a couple hundred years when it will be possible to examine whatever cells remain to determine if he ever took steroids. If the result is "yes", then his results from a couple centuries before will be nullified. The medals will be awarded to other athletes, posthumously of course. No achievement in the sport is ever final or definitive. It's always open to revision. The race is never over. There is no finish line. What a sport!
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Postby Dave » Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:29 pm

Nah, by that time no one will much care about either the Olympics or track. it will have all gotten too confusing about who wins or loses that no one will care.
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Postby Dave » Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:34 pm

oldvaulter wrote:
Dave wrote:I seem to remember as a kid reading about steroid use at the Mexico City games along with payoffs from the shoe companies. This is a very very old problem.


Were drugs illegal in 1968? I've been wondering about this. I think I asked this question on this forum several years ago but either I didn't get a definitive answer or else I've forgotten it: When were drugs outlawed in track and field?

It seems logical that if retroactive nullification and revision of results is the rule, as the majority evidently favor in the poll here, that the cut off would be when the drugs were made illegal. All results in all competitions affected by the drug ban are tentative since that time. We haven't had a definitive Olympic champion since the last Olympics held without rules regarding PEDs. Even the King's "Jesse Owens" accomplishment in 1984, as well as his four LJ golds in row, are only tentative results. They're not final. As long as there is no statute of limitations allowing the certification of truly final results, nothing is decided.

New technologies will be developed. King Carl's body will be exhumed in a couple hundred years when it will be possible to examine whatever cells remain to determine if he ever took steroids. If the result is "yes", then his results from a couple centuries before will be nullified. The medals will be awarded to other athletes, posthumously of course. No achievement in the sport is ever final or definitive. It's always open to revision. The race is never over. There is no finish line. What a sport!


From what I can find on the web, steroids were banned in 1967.

http://www.google.com/views?q=steroids+ ... &ct=tlmore
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Re: doping: a modest proposal for a statute of limitations

Postby BruceFlorman » Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:43 pm

tafnut wrote:
BruceFlorman wrote:And when you catch one, what should be done?

ban him/her.

Is that all, or do you also rewrite the results? If someone asks, "Who won the 100?", should we be able to give a difinite answer, or must we forever preface the answer with: "From what we know so far ..."
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Re: doping: a modest proposal for a statute of limitations

Postby tafnut » Sun Nov 18, 2007 7:40 pm

BruceFlorman wrote:
tafnut wrote:ban him/her.

Is that all, or do you also rewrite the results? If someone asks, "Who won the 100?", should we be able to give a difinite answer, or must we forever preface the answer with: "From what we know so far ..."

Leave the results, but with the Scarlet Asterisk attached. :twisted:
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Postby donley2 » Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:14 am

oldvaulter wrote:Yes, yes you sound very righteous. You're just ignoring the FACT that no definitive results means no meaningful competition means no respectable sport. If it weren't for that all-important caveat, I would be agreeing with you. As long as you continue to ignore this all-important point, there is nothing to be gained by further discussion.


Your logical conclusions I find a serious stretch. Other institutions (say the NCAA) engage in after the fact disqualifications and re-naming of champions in sports such as football and basketball and I tend to think it has exactly zero affect on there popularity. If the long after the fact disqualifications in track and field are actually having any affect on the sports popularity I would estimate it the be miniscule. The damage to the sport is done when the drug story breaks, with or without new medals being handed out.
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Postby oldvaulter » Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:23 am

donley2 wrote:Other institutions (say the NCAA) engage in after the fact disqualifications and re-naming of champions in sports such as football and basketball


I've never heard of a single case of the winner of an NCAA football or basketball game being changed after the fact. Can you give specific examples?
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Postby donley2 » Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:33 am

oldvaulter wrote:
donley2 wrote:Other institutions (say the NCAA) engage in after the fact disqualifications and re-naming of champions in sports such as football and basketball


I've never heard of a single case of the winner of an NCAA football or basketball game being changed after the fact. Can you give specific examples?


http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=2933008
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Postby oldvaulter » Mon Nov 19, 2007 10:54 am

donley2 wrote:http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=2933008


Good example, but you don't think this is bad for sports? For NCAA sports? For Oklahoma University sports? For Oklahoma football? The nullification of games is very unfortunate for all the athletes and fans. It has a very damaging effect on the sport. I think the NCAA and the U. of O. would agree with this.

Game results were nullified due to rule violations, but I didn't see any mention of doping, which is what we've been taking about in this thread. Also the context of this discussion has been largely about professional sports at the world and Olympic level.

I have no objection to results being nullified if it's done immediately, or within a specified statute of limitations. That's what I've been arguing for in this thread -- not that there would never be a nullification or revision of results, only that it be done within a predetermined specified time, and after that time expires, the results stand if they have not already been nullified.

Are you sure that that was not the case in the Oklahoma football case you mentioned? It's possible that after a certain period of time it may not have been possible to go back and nullify results. Maybe they just acted within their own statute of limitations. Do you know?

Why do you think that professional sports such as football, basketbal, and baseballl do NOT nullify the results of completed games even if it turns out later that there was some infraction of the rules?
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Postby Justin Clouder » Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:07 am

There have been examples in both club and international football (soccer) of results being altered, notably when crowd violence disrupts the game or an ineligible player is fielded. The usual decision is to award the game 3-0 to the non-offending team.

Two examples - a tiny club were (very harshly) thrown out of the FA Cup (major English soccer competition) last year for fielding an ineligible player and a Sweden-Denmark international match which finished 3-3 was awarded 3-0 to Sweden after a Danish fan attacked the referee.

Not quite the same I know, but they illustrate that the principle of changing the official results of sports events afterwards is far from confined to T&F.

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Postby oldvaulter » Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:09 am

donley2 wrote:http://sports.espn.go.com/ncf/news/story?id=2933008


Looking further at the article you cited, I notice that the nullification of game results was subject to appeal by Oklahoma and that they were planning an appeal at the time of the article. So it's not clear whether the game nullifications finally stood or not.

Also, the infraction involved was about athletes who got paid for work they apparently didn't do. When I was at UCLA in the sixties, on an NCAA championship track team (1966), phony "make-work" "jobs" for athletes were pretty common. There were sometimes work requirements to get certain types of grants given to athletes, and the work was usually nominal, super-easy, or basically non-existent. This sounds like the same kind of setup that was cited in the Oklahoma football case. Since this was the case at UCLA in the sixties, do you think that UCLA should now be stripped of its 1966 NCAA track and field title, and all the results from all competitions that season nullified?
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Postby oldvaulter » Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:11 am

Justin Clouder wrote:There have been examples in both club and international football (soccer) of results being altered, notably when crowd violence disrupts the game or an ineligible player is fielded. The usual decision is to award the game 3-0 to the non-offending team.

Two examples - a tiny club were (very harshly) thrown out of the FA Cup (major English soccer competition) last year for fielding an ineligible player and a Sweden-Denmark international match which finished 3-3 was awarded 3-0 to Sweden after a Danish fan attacked the referee.

Not quite the same I know, but they illustrate that the principle of changing the official results of sports events afterwards is far from confined to T&F.


Are these cases where there is no statute of limitations and the results of the game can be nullified or changed no matter how long after the event -- even many years? (As in the case of Marion's Sydney results.)
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Postby Justin Clouder » Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:42 am

Not in the cases I cited since each was part of a championship - the FA Cup is a knockout competition so the offending team had to be thrown out before the next round. The international match was part of qualifying for next year's European soccer champs so again all issues had to be sorted out reasonably promptly - the qualifying round matches finish on Wednesday.

I don't know what would happen if a team which fielded an ineligible player (for example) had already played a subsequent round before their infringment was discovered.

There have been examples in football of wrongdoing coming to light long after the event - bribing the referee in one infamous example - and no action was taken.

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Postby tandfman » Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:51 am

oldvaulter wrote: When I was at UCLA in the sixties, on an NCAA championship track team (1966), phony "make-work" "jobs" for athletes were pretty common. There were sometimes work requirements to get certain types of grants given to athletes, and the work was usually nominal, super-easy, or basically non-existent. This sounds like the same kind of setup that was cited in the Oklahoma football case. Since this was the case at UCLA in the sixties, do you think that UCLA should now be stripped of its 1966 NCAA track and field title, and all the results from all competitions that season nullified?

Based on a single unsubstantiated post by someone on an Internet message board recalling events that happened more than 40 years ago, no.
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Postby oldvaulter » Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:53 am

Justin Clouder wrote:Not in the cases I cited since each was part of a championship - the FA Cup is a knockout competition so the offending team had to be thrown out before the next round. The international match was part of qualifying for next year's European soccer champs so again all issues had to be sorted out reasonably promptly - the qualifying round matches finish on Wednesday.

I don't know what would happen if a team which fielded an ineligible player (for example) had already played a subsequent round before their infringment was discovered.

There have been examples in football of wrongdoing coming to light long after the event - bribing the referee in one infamous example - and no action was taken.


The types of competition you refer to here are good examples of why it is necessary to certify the results of sporting events as final, either immediately after the event or after a specified statute of limitations as we have been discussing in this thread. Leaving the results open-ended and forever subject to change is not only detrimental to the sport, it's completely unworkable in many instances such as those you cite.
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Postby oldvaulter » Mon Nov 19, 2007 11:55 am

tandfman wrote:
oldvaulter wrote: When I was at UCLA in the sixties, on an NCAA championship track team (1966), phony "make-work" "jobs" for athletes were pretty common. There were sometimes work requirements to get certain types of grants given to athletes, and the work was usually nominal, super-easy, or basically non-existent. This sounds like the same kind of setup that was cited in the Oklahoma football case. Since this was the case at UCLA in the sixties, do you think that UCLA should now be stripped of its 1966 NCAA track and field title, and all the results from all competitions that season nullified?

Based on a single unsubstantiated post by someone on an Internet message board recalling events that happened more than 40 years ago, no.


The difficulty in substantiating events that took place years ago is one of the many reasons why there needs to be a statute of limitations allowing the certiification of the results of athletic events as final. (This is also one of the reasons why statutes of limitation apply to most crimes.)

But I wonder from your comment, if it were possible to provide credible documentation of the kind of activity I cited, would you favor nullifying a result from 41 years ago? That's really the relevant question here.
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Postby Justin Clouder » Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:12 pm

BTW, don't the IOC have a 8-year statute of limitations? Which would be why none of the GDR results from the 1970s have been annuled.

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Postby oldvaulter » Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:18 pm

Justin Clouder wrote:BTW, don't the IOC have a 8-year statute of limitations? Which would be why none of the GDR results from the 1970s have been annuled.


Interesting. I don't know the IOC rules on this. The majority of respondents in this poll are obviously against such an SOL and would prefer to see retroactive nullifications without any time limitation. I favor the SOL and would be glad to know if the IOC has one in place as you suggest. I think eight years is a bit on the long side, but much better than nothing.
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Postby tandfman » Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:23 pm

oldvaulter wrote:
tandfman wrote:
oldvaulter wrote: When I was at UCLA in the sixties, on an NCAA championship track team (1966), phony "make-work" "jobs" for athletes were pretty common. There were sometimes work requirements to get certain types of grants given to athletes, and the work was usually nominal, super-easy, or basically non-existent. This sounds like the same kind of setup that was cited in the Oklahoma football case. Since this was the case at UCLA in the sixties, do you think that UCLA should now be stripped of its 1966 NCAA track and field title, and all the results from all competitions that season nullified?

Based on a single unsubstantiated post by someone on an Internet message board recalling events that happened more than 40 years ago, no.

The difficulty in substantiating events that took place years ago is one of the many reasons why there needs to be a statute of limitations allowing the certiification of the results of athletic events as final. (This is also one of the reasons why statutes of limitation apply to most crimes.)

But I wonder from your comment, if it were possible to provide credible documentation of the kind of activity I cited, would you favor nullifying a result from 41 years ago? That's really the relevant question here.

Does the NCAA rules have a statute of limitations that would apply to violations like that? I've no idea, but if they have no statute of limitations, then I'd favor enforcing the rules. If they do have a statute of limitations that would prevent that enforcement, then so be it.
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Postby oldvaulter » Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:29 pm

tandfman wrote:Does the NCAA rules have a statute of limitations that would apply to violations like that? I've no idea, but if they have no statute of limitations, then I'd favor enforcing the rules. If they do have a statute of limitations that would prevent that enforcement, then so be it.


So I guess your opinion is "whatever the existing rules are". Fine, but the question posed in this thread is whether or not you think there should be an SOL or not.
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Postby Pego » Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:29 pm

oldvaulter wrote:
Justin Clouder wrote:BTW, don't the IOC have a 8-year statute of limitations? Which would be why none of the GDR results from the 1970s have been annuled.


Interesting. I don't know the IOC rules on this. The majority of respondents in this poll are obviously against such an SOL and would prefer to see retroactive nullifications without any time limitation. I favor the SOL and would be glad to know if the IOC has one in place as you suggest. I think eight years is a bit on the long side, but much better than nothing.


I agree. Eight years is way too long. One Olympiad should be the maximum upper limit. If the don't catch you in four years, you beat the system. I can already hear Marion haters howl.
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Postby Justin Clouder » Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:34 pm

Just to clarify I don't know for sure that there is an 8-yr rule, I just seem to recall that being cited as the reason all the East German results still stand.

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Postby oldvaulter » Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:40 pm

Pego wrote:I agree. Eight years is way too long. One Olympiad should be the maximum upper limit. If the don't catch you in four years, you beat the system. I can already hear Marion haters howl.


I've been thinking about this because a specific time was mentioned in the original poll that began this thread, but it was put forward tentatively, not a firmly recommended SOL time. I've avoided mentioning any specific SOL time limit in my many posts in this thread because I couldn't come up with a number that "seemed right". However, hearing your suggestion, I think it is quite reasonable and good working figure.
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Postby donley2 » Mon Nov 19, 2007 12:58 pm

Justin Clouder wrote:Just to clarify I don't know for sure that there is an 8-yr rule, I just seem to recall that being cited as the reason all the East German results still stand.

Justin


I am reasonably certain current WADA code has an 8 year statute of limitations. This link http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/docu ... les_v2.pdf (on page 31) seems to support that.
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Postby oldvaulter » Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:11 pm

ARTICLE 16 STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS
No action may be commenced under these Anti-Doping Rules against an Athlete or other Person for a violation of an anti-doping rule contained in these Anti-Doping Rules unless such action is commenced within eight years from the date the violation occurred.


From the small sampling of poll results here it seems that the majority favor repealing this rule and having no SOL. I applaud the SOL and would like to see it shortened. As conditions are today, pego's suggestion of one Olympic cycle seems reasonable.

I would actually prefer a much shorter SOL, but given the difficulty in detecting PEDs with today's technology, that may be a ways off. I have in mind a futuristic machine that might look something like those doorframe metal detectors in the airports. Except when you walk through it it gives an instant readout of not only every substance in your body, but also looks at subtle metabolic markers which would indicate past use of prohibited substances, masking agents, or whatever. If you pass the test as you enter the competition arena, you are eligible to compete and your results count. Otherwise not. I think such a machine may be 50 to 100 years in the future, unfortunately.
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Postby Dave » Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:19 pm

oldvaulter wrote:
ARTICLE 16 STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS
No action may be commenced under these Anti-Doping Rules against an Athlete or other Person for a violation of an anti-doping rule contained in these Anti-Doping Rules unless such action is commenced within eight years from the date the violation occurred.


From the small sampling of poll results here it seems that the majority favor repealing this rule and having no SOL. I applaud the SOL and would like to see it shortened. As conditions are today, pego's suggestion of one Olympic cycle seems reasonable.

I would actually prefer a much shorter SOL, but given the difficulty in detecting PEDs with today's technology, that may be a ways off. I have in mind a futuristic machine that might look something like those doorframe metal detectors in the airports. Except when you walk through it it gives an instant readout of not only every substance in your body, but also looks at subtle metabolic markers which would indicate past use of prohibited substances, masking agents, or whatever. If you pass the test as you enter the competition arena, you are eligible to compete and your results count. Otherwise not. I think such a machine may be 50 to 100 years in the future, unfortunately.


I have no idea what others know but this is new information for me. I agree that the period should be much shorter. I really like the idea of ratifying results within 24 hours unless a protest has been lodged. Once the results have been ratified, they stand. An Olympic cycle still seems way too long.
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Postby oldvaulter » Mon Nov 19, 2007 1:26 pm

Dave wrote:I agree that the period should be much shorter. I really like the idea of ratifying results within 24 hours unless a protest has been lodged. Once the results have been ratified, they stand. An Olympic cycle still seems way too long.


I like the 24-hour idea too. I think it would be best for the sport, the athletes, and the fans. But PEDs are a serious problem and I'm afraid the technology of detection is just too primitive now. I wonder if we had a one year SOL if it would spur advances in the detection technology? Perhaps the eight year SOL encourages sluggishness in making advances in this area, or in pursuing suspected violations. (Not underestimating the technological challenges in doing this, however.)
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Postby Mats Nilsson » Mon Nov 19, 2007 2:06 pm

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Last edited by Mats Nilsson on Fri Mar 14, 2014 5:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby tafnut » Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:02 pm

Mats Nilsson wrote:.I especially feel your hypocrisy. What about the US women? Do you feel the same hate towards them? Will you spit on Marion's grave as well? At least the East block women were not caught with a positive test. The population of the good ole' red/white/blue drug-monster keeps on living in denial...

I'm beginning to feel you'll NEVER get it, Mats. I hate USA cheaters even MORE!!!
a. not getting caught is a non-starter. Very FEW got caught back then.
b. NO ONE is in denial about the amount of cheating going on.
c. We KNOW that the DDR was systemically dirty - across the board.
d. We know that many western athletes were dirty - we just don't know which ones. We ban the ones we DO know.
e. did you even READ my post??!!
:roll:
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Postby tafnut » Mon Nov 19, 2007 3:10 pm

tafnut wrote:I would like to save it, but that would require a Zero Tolerance policy that no one has the courage to institute.

headline from home-page

European AA General Director Milz Pushes For Zero Tolerance

Glad to see he read my post! Wink
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Postby Powell » Tue Nov 20, 2007 1:35 am

Speaking of retroactively changing results - the 1912 OG decathlon results were changed some 70 years after the event took place :!:
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Postby Andrea_T » Tue Nov 20, 2007 2:37 am

tafnut wrote:I'm beginning to feel you'll NEVER get it, Mats. I hate USA cheaters even MORE!!!
a. not getting caught is a non-starter. Very FEW got caught back then.
b. NO ONE is in denial about the amount of cheating going on.
c. We KNOW that the DDR was systemically dirty - across the board.
d. We know that many western athletes were dirty - we just don't know which ones. We ban the ones we DO know.
e. did you even READ my post??!!
:roll:


a. Agreed
b. I don't know, you seemed to deny Marion Jones was doped right til the end. Rose tinted glasses and all that.
c. No we do not. Not every athlete is mentioned, there is no record of certain athletes - fact. If you are making the assumption that every GDR athlete was doped because some are mentioned in government files, then we can just as easily assume that every American woman sprinter is doped because of Jones, White, Gaines, Edwards, Jenkins etc. At the very least that any athlete that has been coached by their coach is/was doped, no?
d. Oh I don't know, some are blindingly obvious.
e. Yes. :lol:
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Postby Andrea_T » Tue Nov 20, 2007 3:30 am

tafnut wrote: I 'hate' the fact that the EG women cheated so thoroughly and put up marks that were completely 'false'. I would love to see them stripped of everything. The flip side of that, however, is that we have no idea who else was dirty then. It's a no-win situation. But I still say, punish the known guilty.


Are these the same EG women that were beaten by a 'clean' Ashford, a 'clean' Brisco, a 'clean' JJK, a 'clean' Flo Jo? Is 7,291 really a 'true' mark and 47.60 a 'false' mark?
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Postby tafnut » Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:20 am

Andrea_T wrote:Are these the same EG women that were beaten by a 'clean' Ashford, a 'clean' Brisco, a 'clean' JJK, a 'clean' Flo Jo? Is 7,291 really a 'true' mark and 47.60 a 'false' mark?

As soon as you show me the proof that the others were dirty. That's exactly what I said about Marion also. When the proof came, I believed it. As it stands know, everyone else is in the same boat: 'not guilty'. Except the DDR women whom we know weren't.
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Postby MJD » Tue Nov 20, 2007 4:23 am

Dave wrote:no comments? and 5 votes?.


I think you may have put an expiry time on it. I can't vote. That doesn't help.
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Postby Andrea_T » Tue Nov 20, 2007 5:01 am

tafnut wrote:As soon as you show me the proof that the others were dirty. That's exactly what I said about Marion also. When the proof came, I believed it. As it stands know, everyone else is in the same boat: 'not guilty'. Except the DDR women whom we know weren't.


Right, so 7,291 is a clean, un-aided human feat in your eyes?

What EG women do you know that were doped? Tell me which ones are mentioned in the stasi files please - all of them? I think you'll find they're not all mentioned. Do you know which ones are and which ones aren't? I'd say you don't. I'd say you have read somewhere that x has been, and so you have assumed there is evidence that all the women were doped, without there actually being the evidence.

The fact is we do not know that ALL EG women were doped, because the evidence does not exist that shows they all were - fact.
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