Bonds Indicted [guilty on 1/4] [wrist whacked!]


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Postby gh » Thu Nov 15, 2007 8:15 pm

eldrick wrote:
mcgato wrote:
gh wrote:I know I'd feel like crap if I were in a position where I had to selectively punish somebody like that, but if you can't keep the legal system operating based on the evidence, we're in a pretty scary position as a society. (Not that this probably any different than it ever was; just don't think people would be so open about it in the past.)

Interesting comment from the editor of TFN, who some claim took a blind eye to the drug problems within the sport, to the ultimate detriment of the sport


eh ???

his job is not that of dick pound

an editorial of how well/bad, pound is doing his job sounds appropriate enough, but in the end it's pound's job to do

it was also pretty damn admirable that the editor didn't wade in armed to the gills when marion got her leaked "a" +ve test last year, allowing all the "yahoos" to die a painful, watery death when she got cleared on "b"

i didn't see any of those yahoos apologise after to an innocent athlete


McGato's complaints, I'm sure, relate not to anything current, but to those who think that back 20-30 years ago, the Flojo era, for example, T&FN should have somehow waded in and blown the lid off everything. Blowing lids (if we could have done it) would have been good for neither us nor the sport as a whole. We serve many masters.

The bottom line, as Peter Ueberroth so derisively referred to us once, is "Track & Field News? That's nothing but a fan magazine." Long may we so remain.
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Bonds & Race

Postby bijanc » Thu Nov 15, 2007 9:31 pm

McGwire/Bonds is like comparing apples and oranges. McGwire admitted using creatine (which was then not on any MLB list). McGwire isn't under tax fraud investiagtion. McGwire broke a single season record, not baseball's all-time and arguably most hallowed. McGwire's trainer didn't serve time rather than sing to the feds.

McGwire came into the game as a large, beefy home run hitter- he didn't go from hitting 39 and 46 to 73 overnight. McGwire, while no saint, isn't disrespectful enough to believe sports fans are so gullible as to think he can't distinguish flaxseed oil from "the clear", or that those who make a living from their physical skills don't know what they're putting inside their bodies.

BCB
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Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:00 pm

mcgato wrote:
gh wrote:I know I'd feel like crap if I were in a position where I had to selectively punish somebody like that, but if you can't keep the legal system operating based on the evidence, we're in a pretty scary position as a society. (Not that this probably any different than it ever was; just don't think people would be so open about it in the past.)

Interesting comment from the editor of TFN, who some claim took a blind eye to the drug problems within the sport, to the ultimate detriment of the sport.

Post yanked in three, two, ....

I can't fault anyone that chooses not to bite the hand that feeds him/her. Would a personal injury lawyer complain about frivolous lawsuits? Would an oil company executive complain about high gas prices? Would Dick Vitale ever speculate, on air, about college basketball players point shaving?
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Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:05 pm

gh wrote:I don't see where there's a race card to play in this one.

I agree with you (see above comment). I was merely stating reality. Let me put it this way: if the G-men had gone after Oprah Winfrey instead of Martha Stewart for the same petty offense, 98% of Blacks would have thought that it was racially motivated.
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Re: Bonds & Race

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:20 pm

bijanc wrote:McGwire/Bonds is like comparing apples and oranges. McGwire admitted using creatine (which was then not on any MLB list). McGwire isn't under tax fraud investiagtion. McGwire broke a single season record, not baseball's all-time and arguably most hallowed. McGwire's trainer didn't serve time rather than sing to the feds.

McGwire came into the game as a large, beefy home run hitter- he didn't go from hitting 39 and 46 to 73 overnight. McGwire, while no saint, isn't disrespectful enough to believe sports fans are so gullible as to think he can't distinguish flaxseed oil from "the clear", or that those who make a living from their physical skills don't know what they're putting inside their bodies.

BCB

McGuire got caught using androstenedione, not creatine. Pre-steroid era, McGuire hit 49 home runs in his best year and Bonds hit 46 in his best. The rest of the stuff that you mention, like trainers, taxes and single season vs career is irrelevant.
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McBonds

Postby bijanc » Thu Nov 15, 2007 10:36 pm

jc:


"Andro" wasn't on the banned list either, when McGwire broke Maris' single-season record. Greg Anderson does matter (or he wouldn't have been indicted). Taxes matter too- they were part of an overall suspicion regarding Bonds, his finances, his integrity, and his purchases.

McGwire was one of baseball's "Bash Brothers" before he and Sosa chased Maris. His best season was not 49 big flies, before the record year he had already posted numbers of 49 jacks (as a rookie), 42 in 1992 in only 139 games, 52 in 1996, and 58 in 1997. Thus his assault on Maris' mark was not anomalous. Bonds hit 25 hrs. in his first 150-g season (after hitting only 16 homers in 413 AB the year before), and followed that up w/ consecutive years of 19,33, 25 and 34. Not exactly Cecil Fielder, Albert Belle, or A-Rod digits. Thus, he aroused more suspicion than nearly any non- T & F athlete in the U.S.

BCB
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Re: McBonds

Postby jazzcyclist » Thu Nov 15, 2007 11:50 pm

bijanc wrote:jc:


"Andro" wasn't on the banned list either, when McGwire broke Maris' single-season record. Greg Anderson does matter (or he wouldn't have been indicted). Taxes matter too- they were part of an overall suspicion regarding Bonds, his finances, his integrity, and his purchases.

McGwire was one of baseball's "Bash Brothers" before he and Sosa chased Maris. His best season was not 49 big flies, before the record year he had already posted numbers of 49 jacks (as a rookie), 42 in 1992 in only 139 games, 52 in 1996, and 58 in 1997. Thus his assault on Maris' mark was not anomalous. Bonds hit 25 hrs. in his first 150-g season (after hitting only 16 homers in 413 AB the year before), and followed that up w/ consecutive years of 19,33, 25 and 34. Not exactly Cecil Fielder, Albert Belle, or A-Rod digits. Thus, he aroused more suspicion than nearly any non- T & F athlete in the U.S.

BCB

Based on the everything I've read and heard, the steroid era was wide open by 1996. I'll concede that I believe that Bonds used illegal PED's, though I have no proof. Do you really believe that McGuire didn't use illegal PED's?
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McGwire

Postby bijanc » Fri Nov 16, 2007 3:13 am

jazzcyclist wrote:

"...McGuire (sic) got caught using androstenedione..."

My point, jc, is that the indictment is not racist. I didn't say McGwire didn't use a PED, I said (as McGwire insisted at the time) that it was not on baseball's banned list in 1998. The nature of what McGwire did doesn't make the charges against or investigation of Bonds racist (not saying jc said they do- my reference was back to a previous post that said the race card will be played, and another that said some sports talk radio callers, and ESPN's Stephen A. Smith already played "it").

BCB
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Postby MJD » Fri Nov 16, 2007 4:39 am

eldrick wrote:it was also pretty damn admirable that the editor didn't wade in armed to the gills when marion got her leaked "a" +ve test last year, allowing all the "yahoos" to die a painful, watery death when she got cleared on "b"

i didn't see any of those yahoos apologise after to an innocent athlete


Quick tip. Marion is not the best example to make that point with.
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Postby paulthefan » Fri Nov 16, 2007 5:37 am

gh wrote:I know I'd feel like crap if I were in a position where I had to selectively punish somebody like that, but if you can't keep the legal system operating based on the evidence, we're in a pretty scary position as a society. (Not that this probably any different than it ever was; just don't think people would be so open about it in the past.)


You are starting to sound a little like paulthefan, this is scary. Thumbing through the channels last night I counted better than 1/2 of the content void of any socially useful function (sports are considered socially useful). Seems the american appetite for adolescent buffoonery reaches new lows with the passing of every year.
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Postby tandfman » Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:13 am

paulthefan wrote:Seems the american appetite for adolescent buffoonery reaches new lows with the passing of every year.

And the fact that you get older, and thus more removed from your own adolescence, with the passing of every year has nothing to do with this perception, right? :)
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Postby Jacksf » Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:20 am

Bonds is a cheat, a liar, a racist, and a total asshole.
Let him go down.
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Postby MJD » Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:21 am

tandfman wrote:
paulthefan wrote:Seems the american appetite for adolescent buffoonery reaches new lows with the passing of every year.

And the fact that you get older, and thus more removed from your own adolescence, with the passing of every year has nothing to do with this perception, right? :)




Some truths are self-evident. Wearing your pants half way down your legs, for example. Has nothing to do with being an old fogie to appreciate the fact that it is just wrong.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:36 am

Jacksf wrote:Bonds is a cheat, a liar, a racist, and a total asshole.
Let him go down.

I knew the race card would be played on this thread eventually, but I didn't expect it to be thrown in that direction. You sound like you have some type of personal beef with Bonds. What did he do to you?
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Postby MJD » Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:43 am

I have no particular beef with the guy but that pretty well sums it up for me. I would actually add a few more adjectives. If the good people of the Bay area are going to actually let the dude walk...ah..I won't say it.
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Postby tandfman » Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:46 am

MJD wrote:
tandfman wrote:
paulthefan wrote:Seems the american appetite for adolescent buffoonery reaches new lows with the passing of every year.

And the fact that you get older, and thus more removed from your own adolescence, with the passing of every year has nothing to do with this perception, right? :)

Some truths are self-evident. Wearing your pants half way down your legs, for example. Has nothing to do with being an old fogie to appreciate the fact that it is just wrong.

I think paulthefan's comment related to the content of tv shows, not fashions.
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Postby MJD » Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:52 am

I understand that but it doesn't change my point.
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Postby Daisy » Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:55 am

tandfman wrote:
MJD wrote:
tandfman wrote:
paulthefan wrote:Seems the american appetite for adolescent buffoonery reaches new lows with the passing of every year.

And the fact that you get older, and thus more removed from your own adolescence, with the passing of every year has nothing to do with this perception, right? :)

Some truths are self-evident. Wearing your pants half way down your legs, for example. Has nothing to do with being an old fogie to appreciate the fact that it is just wrong.

I think paulthefan's comment related to the content of tv shows, not fashions.

There is a distinction?
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Postby guru » Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:56 am

MJD wrote:I have no particular beef with the guy but that pretty well sums it up for me. I would actually add a few more adjectives. If the good people of the Bay area are going to actually let the dude walk...ah..I won't say it.


I really think people here are underestimating the good people in the bay area. Lawyers are pretty good at seating impartial juries, and when push comes to shove people in that position take it seriously and follow the evidence, especially in a federal trial.
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Postby gh » Fri Nov 16, 2007 6:59 am

For more coverage than I imagine anyone would want to wade through, go to the SF Chronicle's home page this morning

www.sfgate.com

I'd recommend the Gwen Knapp piece as the best "entertainment value" and isn't all that long.

Her lead:

<<It's too late for an asterisk. It's never too late for the truth.
Barry Bonds took the all-time home-run record this summer because no one could stop him, not the government, not Major League Baseball, not the fans at road games with their heated lungs and pointed signs. The former king bowed to the new one, and the president of the United States called with congratulations. That show is over. There is no rewind button.

Now, four years in the making, a new show begins,....>>
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Postby MJD » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:04 am

gh wrote:That show is over. There is no rewind button.


I have read some say that that isn't necessarily an accurate statement. You can't rewind BJ's race in 1988 either. Still took it away from him. Look what they are doing to Marion.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:17 am

MJD wrote:
gh wrote:That show is over. There is no rewind button.


I have read some say that that isn't necessarily an accurate statement. You can't rewind BJ's race in 1988 either. Still took it away from him.

Unless someone can prove Bonds was using PED's after MLB instituted its current PED policy, I don't see how he can get the Ben Johnson treatment. Instead, he'll get the Flo-Jo treatment. Furthermore, MLB hasn't expunged the performances of Rafeal Palmeiro and other players who've tested positive since they started testing for PED's. Speaking of Palmeiro, why haven't the G-men indicted him for his perjury before congress? :?
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Postby MJD » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:20 am

I am just telling you what I am reading. Maybe the fact that it is such an important record might mean they will do something about it.
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Postby gh » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:25 am

MJD wrote:
gh wrote:That show is over. There is no rewind button.


I have read some say that that isn't necessarily an accurate statement. You can't rewind BJ's race in 1988 either. Still took it away from him. Look what they are doing to Marion.


Neither of them belonged to a powerful union.
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Why Bonds and not Others?

Postby bijanc » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:29 am

a poster asked:

"...Speaking of Palmeiro, why haven't the G-men indicted him for his perjury before congress?..."


The federal government, as most of you know, was investigating the Bay Area Lab Cooperative under suspicion of money laundering, and to some extent, illegal drug sale. During the course of the investigation, records of ties to or BACLO purchases by certain athletes surfaced, Bonds among them. Some, like Bonds and Giambi, were offered immunity if they told the grand jury the truth about their relationship with the company. The gov't says Bonds lied to the GJ 19 times. Palmeiro was not subpoenaed.

BCB
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:32 am

MJD wrote:I am just telling you what I am reading. Maybe the fact that it is such an important record might mean they will do something about it.

If MLB selectively expunges the performances of Bonds and no one else, it will open up a can of worms.
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Postby paulthefan » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:36 am

MJD wrote:
tandfman wrote:
paulthefan wrote:Seems the american appetite for adolescent buffoonery reaches new lows with the passing of every year.

And the fact that you get older, and thus more removed from your own adolescence, with the passing of every year has nothing to do with this perception, right? :)

Some truths are self-evident. Wearing your pants half way down your legs, for example. Has nothing to do with being an old fogie to appreciate the fact that it is just wrong.


I really dont think it is the fact that I am getting older.
There must be alot of people in the country that are completely uneducated and uncultured yet have enough money that there is a significant market to get their attention with assinine content. I dont think I remember this kind of trash on the airwaves in the 60s. It is frightening.... This observations has nothing to do with Barry Bonds who probably feels just as I do.
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Postby guru » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:38 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
MJD wrote:I am just telling you what I am reading. Maybe the fact that it is such an important record might mean they will do something about it.

If MLB selectively expunges the performances of Bonds and no one else, it will open up a can of worms.



Not if there is solid date documentation regarding usage.
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Postby MJD » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:38 am

gh wrote:Neither of them belonged to a powerful union.


I understand what you are saying but I wonder if this kind of situation is actually in their collective agreement(I realize it doesn't matter-just wondering.
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Re: Why Bonds and not Others?

Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:40 am

bijanc wrote:a poster asked:

"...Speaking of Palmeiro, why haven't the G-men indicted him for his perjury before congress?..."


The federal government, as most of you know, was investigating the Bay Area Lab Cooperative under suspicion of money laundering, and to some extent, illegal drug sale. During the course of the investigation, records of ties to or BACLO purchases by certain athletes surfaced, Bonds among them. Some, like Bonds and Giambi, were offered immunity if they told the grand jury the truth about their relationship with the company. The gov't says Bonds lied to the GJ 19 times. Palmeiro was not subpoenaed.

BCB

I understand the difference between Bonds and Giambi. It's the same as the difference between Scooter Libby and Richard Armitage. But that still doesn't change the fact that Palmeiro perjured himself on national TV and the Feds are ignoring it, which demonstrates the selective nature of federal prosecutors.
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Postby gh » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:48 am

guru wrote:...I really think people here are underestimating the good people in the bay area. Lawyers are pretty good at seating impartial juries, and when push comes to shove people in that position take it seriously and follow the evidence, especially in a federal trial.


There are more SF Chron pieces in the sports section (not directly linked on their front page),including one by Ray Ratto that starts:

<<(11-15) 21:06 PST -- Once again, the International Conclusion-Jumping Championships are being held, and once again the topic is our own B. Lamar Bonds. So let's begin. Oh, and tie your shoes.
Item One: "The government must have a very strong case to bother indicting him."
Maybe. And maybe not.
This is not going to be an easy case to make in this town with a jury pool that could include a Giants fan, a libertarian or just an ornery cuss who distrusts the government in general. ....>>
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:48 am

guru wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
MJD wrote:I am just telling you what I am reading. Maybe the fact that it is such an important record might mean they will do something about it.

If MLB selectively expunges the performances of Bonds and no one else, it will open up a can of worms.



Not if there is solid date documentation regarding usage.

But solid date documentation already exists for other athletes like Palmeiro, who flunked a drug test and Giambi who's admitted to the grand jury and George Mitchell, the whats and whens of his PED usage. What's your point?
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Postby guru » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:52 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
guru wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
MJD wrote:I am just telling you what I am reading. Maybe the fact that it is such an important record might mean they will do something about it.

If MLB selectively expunges the performances of Bonds and no one else, it will open up a can of worms.



Not if there is solid date documentation regarding usage.

But solid date documentation already exists for other athletes like Palmeiro, who flunked a drug test and Giambi who's admitted to the grand jury and George Mitchell, the whats and whens of his PED usage. What's your point?


Is there? Are there documents that showed WHEN they used, not just flunked tests and testimony confrming THAT they used? If so, then of course.

ANYONE who has a documented record of when they were using PED's should have all stats redacted from the record books during that time. At least in the case of Bonds, we know there is in the BALCO records that timeline.
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Postby gh » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:52 am

Ratto's conclusion:

<<...And finally, there is one last conclusion not to be jumped. That with Bonds indicted, the Steroid Era is finally behind us, and baseball can dance free and untainted. No, it's in front of us, halogen high-beams right through our corneas, and it's going to stay in front of us for at least as long as it took for the drugs to become a full-blown era.

No player can be presumed to be clean on his say-so or the lack of a positive test administered by those crack scientists working for MLB. The presumption of innocence works in a courtroom but nowhere else in our judgmental society. We conclusion-jump because we have too much time on our hands and too much media to allow for the dead air required to reconfirm baseball's chemical virtue.

In other words, think 30 years, give or take a pennant race.>>
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Stock In Bonds

Postby bijanc » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:56 am

I predict this thread will generate the second most pages of replies in TNTAF history.

BCB
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Postby gh » Fri Nov 16, 2007 7:57 am

In the non-Webb, non-Gabe category, that is.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:09 am

guru wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
guru wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
MJD wrote:I am just telling you what I am reading. Maybe the fact that it is such an important record might mean they will do something about it.

If MLB selectively expunges the performances of Bonds and no one else, it will open up a can of worms.



Not if there is solid date documentation regarding usage.

But solid date documentation already exists for other athletes like Palmeiro, who flunked a drug test and Giambi who's admitted to the grand jury and George Mitchell, the whats and whens of his PED usage. What's your point?


Is there? Are there documents that showed WHEN they used, not just flunked tests and testimony confrming THAT they used? If so, then of course.

ANYONE who has a documented record of when they were using PED's should have all stats redacted from the record books during that time. At least in the case of Bonds, we know there is in the BALCO records that timeline.

You're forgetting that Giambi's name is part of those same BALCO records. Furthermore, when Ben Johnson tested positive for steroids in 1988, the IAAF expunged his 1987 performances from the books also, though he didn't flunk a test in 1987. Tim Montgomery's 9.78 was expunged despite the fact that he passed the drug tests on the day he ran 9.78. Shouldn't the same thing happen to Palmeiro?
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Postby guru » Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:14 am

jazzcyclist wrote:You're forgetting that Giambi's name is part of those same BALCO records. Furthermore, when Ben Johnson tested positive for steroids in 1988, the IAAF expunged his 1987 performances from the books also, though he didn't flunk a test in 1987. Tim Montgomery's 9.78 was expunged despite the fact that he passed the drug tests on the day he ran 9.78. Shouldn't the same thing happen to Palmeiro?


I already answered that question. We have no argument on that point.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:24 am

guru wrote: We have no argument on that point.

I guess I misunderstood you. I thought you were advocating selective expunging of only Bonds' performances.
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Postby guru » Fri Nov 16, 2007 8:32 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
guru wrote: We have no argument on that point.

I guess I misunderstood you. I thought you were advocating selective expunging of only Bonds' performances.


Bonds gets the attention in this regard because he broke a record. A BIG ONE. It's easy for guys like Giambi and their drug-enhanced stats to be ignored because they didn't.

Trust me, put McGwire in Bonds' position, with Bonds' personality(an aspect of this not to be ignored) and we would be having the same discussion.
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