Legalise, monitor and regulate PED'S


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Legalise, monitor and regulate PED'S

Postby paddyb » Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:12 am

I have so much to say on this topic and I apologise if my thoughts aren't written here coherantly... but here goes... and I expect a whole lotta grief from most people on this board... I am a big fan of Flojo, Marion, Arron, Lewis, Gatlin. Don't care what they have taken to get where they are.. I only concern myself with their performances.

I actually don't like the words "doped, doping, PED's etc" but I will use them here to avoid confusion. I see them as a natural extension of supplements.

So.... in no particular order..

Some of the comments on this board make out that Marion is worse than a murderer. Reality check! Marion runs fast and took some substances that helped her train harder to get there. (yes she lied to investigators etc etc but hey her world was crumbling down and she thought the whole thign would go away)

Athletes have always doped and gotten away with it and always will.

Cases at both ends of the spectrum show that there is widespread doping - Gatlin and Jones at the top end taking PED's and then this year a 17yr old Russian hurlder - Olesya Kravchenko - 13.57 busted for stanazolol. Yes ladies and gentlemen there's a whole lot going on in between!!!

The next generation of gene doped athletes will make the current performances look like they were made by schoolgirls and there will be no way of detecting it

Some of the money we currently spend on testing should be spent on researching safe levels of PED's - and yes there are safe levels... The same amount of testosterone prescribed for impotency can assist athletes recover from training assist in muscle

Why can't an athlete take what they want? Some athletes spend tens of thousands of dollars of money (some their own and for the fortunate few - government funding covers the bills) getting injuries treated and yet a simple course of testosterone could help repair injuries within a matter of a few weeks

Walk into any national athlete kitchen/bathroom cabinet and you will see an amazing array of supplements.. creatine, colostrum, ZMA, HMB, L-glutamine and dozens of other aminos, Co-enzyme Q-10... Some you will even find legal injectables like B-12 and other vitamins. Their docs are also giving then vitamins via IV. Yet this is all deemed somewhat different to products that you need a prescription for . Why? Where is the line? I see a whole lot of grey here. They are all the same in moderation to me... unless of course there is evidence that they are dangerous and even so - why can't an athlete choose what they put into their body

A comparison to the real world. Compare the competition in track and field to applying for a job. Someone who gets nervous at interviews takes an anti-anxiety medication to calm themselves before an interview. They end up getting the job over a "clean" employee. So? That's OK isn't it? Should we test potential job applicants?

Marion's A sample comes up positive for EPO - the B sample is clear. This is either Marion's substantial influence at play (probably limited influence over these things once BALCO was unravelling) or the tests are still not 100% accurate. that's scary for every momdern athlete! I'm not saying she didn't take EPO - of course she did I am just saying that it's scary when 2 samples test differently

This whole taking medals away and giving them to others is a joke... It is quite possible that we will have athletes finishing last and ending up with a medal and even then with athletes passing drug tests for years and then admitting they were doped how can we ever know that anyone is clean.. Word of warning - athletes must say they are clean when they speak to the media - why is everyone shocked at this lying? Of course they have to say they are clean. Geez!!! So, anyway - we know that this is not an accurate measure of being doped or not..

So Marion loses her medals and they go to Thanou. She's tainted, everyone says, because she missed some drug tests... but we don't believe her, we think she was avoiding a test because she knew she would test positive .. but hang on, we do believe that Ohurugu's negligence was an honest mistake.. Hmm .. how to get this right... there were so many rumours about Marion and Thanou and they company they kept.. Well lets run with that.. If you're associated in any way with someone who has anything to do with drugs, or if you have been sanctioned in the past or retrospectively then we pass medals on to someone more deserving. That's what most people on this board want. Guilt by association...

OK let's try this on the WC '99 Women's 100m

Sorry Marion - we have to give your gold to Inger.... you understand.

Here you go Inger - congratulations... no wait... hang on - you trained with John Smith didn't you? ... Well since he was mentioned in Charlie Francis' Speed Trap as being Charlies mentor in the world of PED's, we'd love to give you the gold that formerly belonged to Marion's... but .. well .. you know that would look bad if that bad old Speed Trap book surfaced again and someone made the association that a coach who was named in the Dubin enquiry and you were working together - well.. anyway...

So.... Ekaterini... here you... Geez - what am I thinking... no wait we can't give you the gold that formerly belonged to Inger, that formerly belonged to Marion... that wouldn't be right.. you know that whole motorbike in Athens incident.. well anyway...

Zhanna! Now you're a double world 100m champ now.. congrats!!.. .. actually... wait.... give that back.. weren't you and Mark cited in an email as being recipients of some of those BALCO tabs? Good stuff yeah? Yes, well just a little too good thank-you very much.. I'll have that gold that formerly belonged to Ekaterini, that formerly belonged to Inger, that formerly belonged to Marion, back please.... Thanks!

Hey Gail - do you want the good news or the bad news?... the good news is that for a minute you were the double double gold medallist - 100/100mh in 93 and 99.. the bad news is that during that minute I was reading some old articles about Bobby's association with Chuck deBus and that does not look good for you. Gwen may have been onto something in '92 when she named names.. but then again - Gwen was alwyas a little crazy.. in the words of Irina.. "Maybe after fourth place, she go crazy or something. I don't know." so anyway... I would have loved to have given you the gold that formerly belonged to Zhanna, that formerly belonged formerly belonged to Ekaterini, that formerly belonged to Inger, that formerly belonged to Marion, but I am sure there is someone more deserving....

Boujour Christine... ca va? who said you couldn't win anything?? You've had your chances and it now looks like it's yours.. Just need to check you're associates, former training partners, agents, and coaches.. Wait a minute.... Hmm a stint in 2001 with John Smith - what a shame - just when you thought that nothing could be more disappointing than choking at a home WC, no you go and blow a real gold by shooting off to the US for a training holiday with the former go-to man for Charlie Francis... Guilty by association... No gold that formerly belonged to Gail, that formerly belonged to Zhanna, that formerly belonged to Ekaterini, that formerly belonged to Inger, that formerly belonged to Marion, for you!!!!

Chandra Chandra Chandra.. finally a deserving gold medallist.. quite, reserved, gracious... I could forgive you for the tainted company you kept .. you know... training in Raleigh with Marion.... if only your meddling boyfriend Andrew hadn't befriended Victor during that training stint in San Fran... so say goodbye to the gold that formerly belonged to Christine, that formerly belonged to Gail, that formerly belonged to Zhanna, that formerly belonged to Ekaterini, that formerly belonged to Inger, that formerly belonged to Marion!

Have mercy, Mercy. You're my only hope! Yes - you're Nigerian and quite frankly everyone knows that Nigerian sprinters are souped up... and souped up you were at last years National Sport Festival - weren't you?... and so you lose your win from that meet as well as the gold that formerly belonged to Chandra that formerly belonged to Christine, that formerly belonged to Gail, that formerly belonged to Zhanna, that formerly belonged formerly belonged to Ekaterini, that formerly belonged to Inger, that formerly belonged to Marion! that was nearly yours from the 99 WC..

Better go check those 5th place girls from the semis... listen Debbie... I've got something to discuss......

Open it up - let everyone take what they want, I'll still enjoy it - just like I do now-- All results stand as far as I'm concerned. In my mind I sub the drugs DSQ athletes right back in to their original position - where they rightly belong.
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Postby SQUACKEE » Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:39 am

I see the point of legalization but why monitor or regulate? If we gotta monitor and reg. will be right back where we are now. Everyone take whatever they want, no testing. Its never gonna happen but it would makes things very simple.
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Postby trackhead » Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:18 am

It's against the rules. The athletes agree to compete under a certain set of rules and those that subvert them will be expelled. It's as simple as that. It would be akin to baseball allowing pitchers to put vaseline on the ball -- it's cheating, just because there are those that try it doesn't mean that you change the rules for the cheaters.

As far as why we agree to those rules, we agree to the concept that we make this as much as man-against-man (or woman-against-woman) as possible. Drugs not only pose a danger, but in a (generally speaking) low equipment sport probide an unfair advantage to those who can afford them. Some argue that massage, ice baths, proper nutrition and daily naps constitute the same unfair adavantage for those who can afford it, however we draw the line in that none of those involve the consumption of chemical agents to alter the playing field.
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Postby paddyb » Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:58 pm

trackhead wrote: however we draw the line in that none of those involve the consumption of chemical agents to alter the playing field.


OK - so can you please kindly explain why we allow caffeine, creatine and amino acids...??? What's the difference? I have never heard a sound argument.
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Postby paddyb » Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:02 pm

I am also interested in those who get on their high horse and cry - it's morally wrong, have you ever broken the speed limit whilst driving? I hope not! It's against the law and you not only put your life in danger but worse - other people's life. This would seem a harsher crime against humanity than what Marion has done.
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Postby eldrick » Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:16 pm

paddyb wrote:
trackhead wrote: however we draw the line in that none of those involve the consumption of chemical agents to alter the playing field.


OK - so can you please kindly explain why we allow caffeine, creatine and amino acids...??? What's the difference? I have never heard a sound argument.


if it exists in a plant/animal which you can eat raw or cooked & has no non-"synthetic" ( = bacterial insertion ) DNA component in a drug-test, it shoud be legal
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Postby tandfman » Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:34 pm

paddyb wrote:I am also interested in those who get on their high horse and cry - it's morally wrong, have you ever broken the speed limit whilst driving? I hope not! It's against the law and you not only put your life in danger but worse - other people's life. This would seem a harsher crime against humanity than what Marion has done.

Two answers to that. First, driving isn't generally a competitive sport--when and where it is, there are no speed limits.

Second--when they catch you speeding, they can suspend your driver's license. When they catch you doping, they can suspend you from competing. Similar punishment.
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Re: Legalise, monitor and regulate PED'S

Postby tandfman » Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:41 pm

paddyb wrote: I am a big fan of Flojo, Marion, Arron, Lewis, Gatlin. Don't care what they have taken to get where they are.. I only concern myself with their performances.

There isn't a single clean elite athlete who shares your viewpoint. They feel that they should have the right to compete fairly at the highest levels without taking substances that may cause them serious harm.

And yes, they do exist. There are lots of them. And they matter.
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Re: Legalise, monitor and regulate PED'S

Postby paddyb » Tue Oct 09, 2007 2:40 am

tandfman wrote:
paddyb wrote: I am a big fan of Flojo, Marion, Arron, Lewis, Gatlin. Don't care what they have taken to get where they are.. I only concern myself with their performances.

There isn't a single clean elite athlete who shares your viewpoint. They feel that they should have the right to compete fairly at the highest levels without taking substances that may cause them serious harm.

And yes, they do exist. There are lots of them. And they matter.


Do those clean athletes take the supplements I mentioned above. Some PED's are no more harmful than creatine aminos etc. Have you done any reading on this topic?

HGH must be safe - docs prescribe it to the white shoe brigade to enhance their lives their lives

Testosterone is also given to impotent men. Isn't that safe?
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Postby tandfman » Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:03 am

You are referring to controlled substances prescribed by licensed physicians to adult patients under their care in order to address medical concerns that they have knowledge of, with due consideration for side effects, long and short term, and subject to the ethical and regulatory constraints of their profession.

The fact that this is done cannot justify the use of those substances by young, healthy men and women who acquire them from non-regulated sources and use them in dosages recommended not by doctors, but by friends, coaches, and other non-medical personnel, without knowledge or due regard for their side effects, solely for the purpose of being able to run faster.
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Postby Daisy » Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:37 am

paddyb wrote:
trackhead wrote: however we draw the line in that none of those involve the consumption of chemical agents to alter the playing field.


OK - so can you please kindly explain why we allow caffeine, creatine and amino acids...??? What's the difference? I have never heard a sound argument.


You've never heard a sound argument for allowing amino acids?? Are you suggesting that athletes eat no protein? Or are you suggesting that the amino acid products that come in a bottle have too many other additives (such as nandrolone precursors) that make them impossible to trust?

I thought extreme quantities of caffeine were banned? Anyone know if there is a cut off?


Creatine is the one grey area and since it is giving extra energy alone, with out anabolic properties, it is probably fine. What is your reason for banning this substance? Would you ban dextrose? I know its further up the metabolic chain but it is semi analogous in that it does not hijack the normal metabolism (or does it, again anyone know the argument against these substances?).
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Postby Powell » Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:12 am

But isn't monitoring and regulating PEDs what we currently do? There are legal cut-off limits specified in the rules (such as the T:E ratio). If you use drugs in limited dosages, you will not test positive.

I proposed long ago that we change our thinking about doping - we should not think about it in moral terms, but be pragmatic. The goal of anti-doping rules and of testing is to avoid a situation in which athletes have to do serious harm to their bodies to stay competitive. We don't need to eliminate doping 100%, just keep the use within limits.
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Postby paddyb » Wed Oct 10, 2007 1:41 am

Daisy wrote:
paddyb wrote:
trackhead wrote: however we draw the line in that none of those involve the consumption of chemical agents to alter the playing field.


OK - so can you please kindly explain why we allow caffeine, creatine and amino acids...??? What's the difference? I have never heard a sound argument.


You've never heard a sound argument for allowing amino acids?? Are you suggesting that athletes eat no protein? Or are you suggesting that the amino acid products that come in a bottle have too many other additives (such as nandrolone precursors) that make them impossible to trust?

I thought extreme quantities of caffeine were banned? Anyone know if there is a cut off?

Creatine is the one grey area and since it is giving extra energy alone, with out anabolic properties, it is probably fine. What is your reason for banning this substance? Would you ban dextrose? I know its further up the metabolic chain but it is semi analogous in that it does not hijack the normal metabolism (or does it, again anyone know the argument against these substances?).


What I am saying is that I have never heard a sound argument why some things are banned and others are not. You miss my point. I thin all substances should be allowed as Powell says within safe limits. Still I think athletes should be able to decide to some extent what they consider safe. Caffeine is a great example. Was banned and now isn't - why is that? So 10 years ago - it was considered performance enhancing and unsafe and now it's ok?
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