Marion to plead guilty to doping!


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Postby Flumpy » Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:36 am

bad hammy wrote:So you are fine with any and all marks made by PED users who used PEDs prior to their being banned? It is not the use of the PED itself that bothers you, it is the arbitrary date when some governing body said 'no more'?


Yes. If it's not against the rules then it's not cheating.

Everybody else at the time was perfectly within their rights to do the same. It may be unsavoury and we might not like it but it's not cheating.

If altitude tents are banned in the future does that make Paula a cheat :?:
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Postby bad hammy » Sat Oct 06, 2007 10:37 am

Flumpy wrote:
bad hammy wrote:So you are fine with any and all marks made by PED users who used PEDs prior to their being banned? It is not the use of the PED itself that bothers you, it is the arbitrary date when some governing body said 'no more'?


Yes. If it's not against the rules then it's not cheating.

Everybody else at the time was perfectly within their rights to do the same. It may be unsavoury and we might not like it but it's not cheating.

So we can just fix this whole problem by making everything legal!
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Postby Flumpy » Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:02 am

bad hammy wrote:So we can just fix this whole problem by making everything legal!


No, because that would force people to take potentially harmful drugs in order to compete on an equal footing. I'm not saying I agree with people taking anything to improve their performances but if at the, time whatever it is, is not illegal I don't see how we can complain.

As i previously stated I have no interest at all in the Barry Bonds case but if it's true that any drugs he may have taken during the period he claimed his record what rule is he supposed to have broken?
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Postby George P. » Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:23 am

Flumpy wrote:As i previously stated I have no interest at all in the Barry Bonds case but if it's true that any drugs he may have taken during the period he claimed his record what rule is he supposed to have broken?

I feel likewise about Barry Who? ... don't you mean "Bobby"? (as I once asked my son).

The only "sanction" Bonds will incur will be sitting in the old-folks home ump-teen years for now and still excluded from the Hall of Fame. That, and the loss of fists-full of dollars that accrue, post-retirement, to heroes of major sports in America.
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Re: MJ Unplugged

Postby mump boy » Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:40 am

bijanc wrote:What sprinters and relay teams stand to gain Oly bronzes, silvers and gold if the IOC strip her (and US relay women) of all her medals?

Does it move Ottey up in the career count?

BCB


merlene wouldn;t gain another medal in the realy as JAM came 2nd and USA 3rd in 2000 but she does get an individual bronze in 100m :D :D

she is already the most bemedellad woman in OG track and field history with 8 medals beating shirly strickland and irina szewinska with 7, this takes her to 9.

unfortunately none of hers are gold :cry:
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Postby SQUACKEE » Sat Oct 06, 2007 11:44 am

bad hammy wrote:So we can just fix this whole problem by making everything legal!


I gotta be honest, part of me is leaning in this direction. The part of me who believes 90% of the best athletes are using sumthin, what other conclusion can i come to? This same part of me see's a huge wave of PED'S and a small army of well intentioned souls fighting it with cheap umbrellas.

This shit they're taking works, it works big time. You think you can stop it? Have any drug wars been won? Remember when our sport wasnt Pro? That became a farce. Do we have a new farce?

This is so depressing. Maybe the way to win is to surrender? As Doc Phil would say, " What your doin now, how's that workin for ya?"
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Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:04 pm

SQUACKEE wrote:
bad hammy wrote:So we can just fix this whole problem by making everything legal!


I gotta be honest, part of me is leaning in this direction. The part of me who believes 90% of the best athletes are using sumthin, what other conclusion can i come to? This same part of me see's a huge wave of PED'S and a small army of well intentioned souls fighting it with cheap umbrellas.

This shit they're taking works, it works big time. You think you can stop it? Have any drug wars been won? Remember when our sport wasnt Pro? That became a farce. Do we have a new farce?

This is so depressing. Maybe the way to win is to surrender? As Doc Phil would say, " What your doin now, how's that workin for ya?"

That's exactly what happened with "Prohibition". The government threw in the towel. Look at Nevada, the first state to legalize prostitution and gambling. If gambling was so bad, why are so many other states following their example? Maybe it's only a matter of time before the other states legalize prostitution too.
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Postby bad hammy » Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:08 pm

George P. wrote:That, and the loss of fists-full of dollars that accrue, post-retirement, to heroes of major sports in America.

To date Bonds has made more money in salary than any baseball player in history (a little over $172 million). I think he'll be OK in retirement . . .

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leade ... ries.shtml
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Postby George P. » Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:11 pm

SQUACKEE wrote:
bad hammy wrote:So we can just fix this whole problem by making everything legal!


I gotta be honest, part of me is leaning in this direction. The part of me who believes 90% of the best athletes are using sumthin, what other conclusion can i come to? This same part of me see's a huge wave of PED'S and a small army of well intentioned souls fighting it with cheap umbrellas.

This shit they're taking works, it works big time. You think you can stop it? Have any drug wars been won? Remember when our sport wasnt Pro? That became a farce. Do we have a new farce?

This is so depressing. Maybe the way to win is to surrender? As Doc Phil would say, " What your doin now, how's that workin for ya?"

This is the sad result when a slice of the sport's biggest fans come to believe that nothing matters quite so much as faster, higher, farther. To this end, "we" are apparently willing to offer up the good long-term health of (many?) athletes, while consigning other athletes - those who decline to offer up their bodies as sacrifices - to the status of no-hopers who can never hope to merit "our" admiration and attention.

What an absolutely dreadful state of affairs!!! :cry:
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Postby bad hammy » Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:26 pm

SQUACKEE wrote:MJ- front page story and more in the sports section in todays Danbury News Times- Connecticut

In the wake of the initial announcement of the letter the SF Chron's (BALCO journalism investigation HQ) Friday edition had a blurb on the bottom of the front page and an article by the BALCO writers on the front page of the sports. Today's edition (post courtroom) had front page articles in both the main section and the sports section. This was my favorite of the bunch, from the front page today: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... NSL9R1.DTL

Gwen Knapp of the SF Chron wrote:Jones has been lying about her drug use for ages, and everyone with a functioning brain stem knew it.
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Postby tafnut » Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:27 pm

George P. wrote:What an absolutely dreadful state of affairs!!! :cry:

BING-freakin-O.
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Postby donley2 » Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:37 pm

Decent article in my hometown paper that got linked on the front page.

http://www.star-telegram.com/sports/story/259251.html

One particularly pertinent quote.


I feel for my friends who are involved in American track and field. Jones has dealt their sport a wickedly damaging blow. Ironically, no sport likely has been more upfront about cleansing itself of drug cheats.
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Postby tafnut » Sat Oct 06, 2007 12:51 pm

donley2 wrote:One particularly pertinent quote:
"I feel for my friends who are involved in American track and field. Jones has dealt their sport a wickedly damaging blow. Ironically, no sport likely has been more upfront about cleansing itself of drug cheats."


That's exactly how I feel about our situation right now.
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Postby bad hammy » Sat Oct 06, 2007 2:24 pm

Paula Radcliffe says hang her:

"I believe sanctions should be increased to four years (suspension) and in a case like this a lifetime ban should be imposed.

"We should be pleased. One of the biggest frauds has been caught. Her medals should also be taken away."


Not sure what 'a case like this' means . . .

http://www.sportinglife.com/story_get.c ... tlead.html
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Postby mump boy » Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:24 am

of course all her medals ahould be taken away but we can't have a state of affairs where they are then awarded to other known cheats as happened when kelli white was DQ. i don;t know how it can be done but if you are convicted of a drug offence then there should be some rule where all your previous achievements are wiped
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Postby eldrick » Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:46 am

bad hammy wrote:Paula Radcliffe says hang her:

"I believe sanctions should be increased to four years (suspension) and in a case like this a lifetime ban should be imposed.

"We should be pleased. One of the biggest frauds has been caught. Her medals should also be taken away."


Not sure what 'a case like this' means . . .

http://www.sportinglife.com/story_get.c ... tlead.html


that's just paula being paula :roll:

i don't think she ever was too happy about the chinese burying the 3 & 10k wrs to levels no one will dig them up again for decades, denying current athletes chances of breaking a "proper" track wr ( she had her chance at the 5k one in '02, but that was her misguided tactics of treating it as a "real race" for 600m instead of a gun-to-tape blast as befitted her being head & shoulders above anyone in that race )
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Postby eldrick » Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:48 am

mump boy wrote:i don;t know how it can be done but if you are convicted of a drug offence then there should be some rule where all your previous achievements are wiped


so, linford tests +ve for nandrolone when ancient & retired except for a "fun" race doreen or whoever, goaded him into, & you want to take away all his gold medals ?
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Postby bad hammy » Sun Oct 07, 2007 3:24 am

bad hammy wrote:
SQUACKEE wrote:MJ- front page story and more in the sports section in todays Danbury News Times- Connecticut

In the wake of the initial announcement of the letter the SF Chron's (BALCO journalism investigation HQ) Friday edition had a blurb on the bottom of the front page and an article by the BALCO writers on the front page of the sports. Today's edition (post courtroom) had front page articles in both the main section and the sports section. This was my favorite of the bunch, from the front page today: http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.c ... NSL9R1.DTL

Gwen Knapp of the SF Chron wrote:Jones has been lying about her drug use for ages, and everyone with a functioning brain stem knew it.

Sunday edition: zero stories about MJ . . .
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Postby tafnut » Sun Oct 07, 2007 5:56 am

bad hammy wrote:Sunday edition: zero stories about MJ . . .

still playing well world-wide:
http://news.google.com/news?ie=UTF-8&oe=utf-8&rls=com.google:en-US:official&client=firefox-a&um=1&tab=wn&q=%22marion+jones%22&scoring=n
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Re: Illuminati script - new limits: Timothy McVeigh 2001 + K

Postby MJD » Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:26 am

Daisy wrote:Don't the illuminati have bigger fish to fry?


Like who killed Princess Di.
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Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Oct 07, 2007 6:32 am

I see Paula agrees with me:
Let's remember, she wouldn't have been caught if there had not been FBI involvement and those of other agencies. Sport and government agencies need to continue working together.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/main.j ... art107.xml

Investigative work is the future of cleaning up the sport.
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Postby mump boy » Sun Oct 07, 2007 7:31 am

eldrick wrote:
mump boy wrote:i don;t know how it can be done but if you are convicted of a drug offence then there should be some rule where all your previous achievements are wiped


so, linford tests +ve for nandrolone when ancient & retired except for a "fun" race doreen or whoever, goaded him into, & you want to take away all his gold medals ?


i think there were a number of nandrolone +ve's in the late 90's that i consider highly dubious, linfords being probably the most high profile. i wouldn't rule out him being on PED throughout his career but i am very sceptical he was on anything when caught.

thank god it's not my job to clear this mess up but something serious has to be done asap
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Re: Illuminati script - new limits: Timothy McVeigh 2001 + K

Postby EPelle » Sun Oct 07, 2007 7:36 am

MJD wrote:
Daisy wrote:Don't the illuminati have bigger fish to fry?


Like who killed Princess Di.

They:re working on that. One frame at a time (partial pun intended).
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Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:28 pm

I've been looking back at the start lists of the USATF women's 100 and 200 finals from the period 1999 thru 2004. What a pathetic sight. :cry: Angela Williams has more reason than anyone to be bitter when she looks back and wonders what might have been.
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Postby Andrea_T » Mon Oct 08, 2007 4:47 am

US athletes track record in women's sprinting speaks for itself: Christie Gaines, Kelli White, Torri Edwards, Marion Jones, Inger Miller, Latasha Jenkins... all the big name US sprinters from the late 90's to the 00's, all have failed a test for something or have since admitted doping.

Could the casual viewer be blamed for thinking that to get into the US womens sprint team you need to dope?

I cannot get enthusiastic about AF and SR. I'm not accusing them, but they really have to deliver and not let us down. The amount of times we heard that crap about Gatlin "oh, he's such a b reath of fresh air" - what b0ll0cks!
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Postby Matt » Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:57 am

I agree - I really hope they don't let us down. 21.81 and 48.70 are damned fast times.
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Postby steve » Mon Oct 08, 2007 6:45 am

Andrea_T wrote:
I cannot get enthusiastic about AF and SR. I'm not accusing them, but they really have to deliver and not let us down. The amount of times we heard that crap about Gatlin "oh, he's such a b reath of fresh air" - what b0ll0cks!


Unfortunately this statement is true for all athletes nowadays, not just US women sprinters.
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Postby Flumpy » Mon Oct 08, 2007 7:20 am

steve wrote:Unfortunately this statement is true for all athletes nowadays, not just US women sprinters.


OIf course we'll be accused of anti - Americanism but the US women's sprint team really do take the biscuit.

You can add Michelle Collins to that list as well.
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Are US Women Sprinters Clean?

Postby bijanc » Mon Oct 08, 2007 9:27 am

"...US athletes track record in women's sprinting speaks for itself: Christie Gaines, Kelli White, Torri Edwards, Marion Jones, Inger Miller, Latasha Jenkins... all the big name US sprinters from the late 90's to the 00's, all have failed a test for something or have since admitted doping.."

Not exactly all- Lauryn Williams, Allyson Felix , Carmelita Jeter, LaTasha Colander, Rachelle (Boone) Smith, and Sanya Richards are pretty quick.

BCB
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Re: Are US Women Sprinters Clean?

Postby Flumpy » Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:39 pm

bijanc wrote:"...US athletes track record in women's sprinting speaks for itself: Christie Gaines, Kelli White, Torri Edwards, Marion Jones, Inger Miller, Latasha Jenkins... all the big name US sprinters from the late 90's to the 00's, all have failed a test for something or have since admitted doping.."

Not exactly all- Lauryn Williams, Allyson Felix , Carmelita Jeter, LaTasha Colander, Rachelle (Boone) Smith, and Sanya Richards are pretty quick.

BCB


Did you actually read his post. Not only was he referring to the late 90's early '00 crop of sprinters but specifically mentioned the fact that we have no reason to suspect AF and SR.
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Postby Mats Nilsson » Mon Oct 08, 2007 12:54 pm

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Postby eldrick » Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:02 pm

Mats Nilsson wrote:Yes, Eldrick. What are the chances that Linford actually was clean in his earlier days. None. zip, but I understand...speculation.


careful now

linford is greatest athlete we produced in last 20y - a legend in our country

if you honestly believe that he wanted to dope up at age ~ 38y to run an ~ 6.65i ( he was more a gardener by then than coach ) when he'd got all the golds & in some people's eyes the "real" wr of 9.87 in '93 ( King's 9.86 actual wr was on an acknowledged illegal track ), then you need to re-examine your thought-processes...
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Postby Mats Nilsson » Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:11 pm

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Postby eldrick » Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:19 pm

Mats Nilsson wrote:You forget that I was an athlete once as well


not in '87 - '96 at the elite level i'm interested in
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Postby Mats Nilsson » Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:40 pm

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Postby eldrick » Mon Oct 08, 2007 1:51 pm

the time-frame mentioned was referring to you, not linford
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Flumpy and MJ

Postby bijanc » Mon Oct 08, 2007 2:55 pm

Flump asked:

"...Did you actually read his post. Not only was he referring to the late 90's early '00 crop of sprinters but specifically mentioned the fact that we have no reason to suspect AF and SR..."

Yes I did, that's why I named others

BCB
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Postby Mats Nilsson » Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:02 pm

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Postby Flumpy » Tue Oct 09, 2007 12:33 am

Mats Nilsson wrote:
eldrick wrote:the time-frame mentioned was referring to you, not linford


Ok Eldrick, that was understood. My interactions with athletes around him in the GB national team occurred in 1995 and onwards, thus, 7-8 years after the 1988 final. He was still running mate. Regardless, it is naive to think he was clean...and it was naive to think that Marion was clean after her husband was caught for roids as well. Thus, just like Tafnut [astute Marion defender] had his USA-goggles on back then you have your GB goggles on right now.

EDIT: I am sure that the hypocritical Swedes had their Swedish goggles on when Ludmila Enqvist won gold in Atlanta. It is quite normal to be patriotic, but it is another thing being naive to the point of stupidity.


Nobody has suggested that Linford was clean throughout his career. It's something that we can't be certain about. The only point being made here is that his retirement positive made no sense and generally assumed to have come from tainted supplements rather than blatant cheating.

As for your Enquist remarks they're just weird. I don't think she was ever particularly accepted by the Swedish public and when she failed a test for the 2nd time she was completely ostracised. There is probably nowhere in the world more anti drug than Sweden. In what way are they hypocrites?
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Postby Matt » Tue Oct 09, 2007 1:26 am

I'm not sure what was happening in '96 but a Swedish friend has mentioned to me that most Swedes are urging kallur towards breaking LN's NR (12.47).

LN clean? No way. 12.26 PB - and she ran another race that day as well (in Sevilla I think, 1992) that was also sub 12.30!
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