All-time World Cup day 2: Running Events

[jsquire]

The first running even of the final day is the 4x100 meter relay. The teams are:

Africa: Frankie Fredericks, Olapide Adeniken, Chidi Imoh, Jean-Louise Ravelomanantsoa
Americas: Silvio Leonard, Don Quarrie, Lloyd LaBeach, Donovan Bailey
Asia: Takayoshi Yoshioka, Chen Chuachian, Hideo Ijima, Mitsuo Taniguchi
Europe: Armin Hary, Eugen Ray, Herbert Houben, Helmuth Kornig
Pacific: Hector Hogan, John Treloar, Fortunato Catalon, Patrick Johnson
UK: Harold Abrahams, Allan Wells, Emmanuel McDonald Bailey, Linford Christie
USA: Bobby Morrow, Carl Lewis, Jesse Owens, Bob Hayes
USSR: Vladimir Sukharyev, Viktor Bryzgin, Aleksandr Kornelyuk, Valeriy Borzov

The results:
1) USA
2) Americas
3) UK
4) Europe
5) Africa
6) USSR
7) Pacific
8) Asia

Team scores through 14 events:
94 USA
89 Europe
81 USSR
65 Americas
51 Africa
49 UK
44 Pacific
32 Asia

[jsquire]

Now the classic, the 1500 meters. Lining up on the backstretch are:

Africa: Noureddine Morceli
Americas: Kevin Sullivan
Asia: Mohamed Suleiman
Europe: Gunder Hagg
Pacific: Herb Elliot
UK: Walter George
USA: Jim Ryun
USSR: Nikolay Kirov

It’s a photo-finish! (I mean, it’s really hard to pick.)

1) Morceli
2) Elliot
3) Hagg
4) George
5) Ryun
6) Suleiman
7) Sullivan
8) Kirov

Team scores through 15 events:
98 USA
95 Europe
82 USSR
67 Americas
59 Africa
54 UK
51 Pacific
35 Asia

[jsquire]

Now we go to the 400 meters. Our competitors:

Africa: Gabriel Tiacoh
Americas: Alberto Juantorena
Asia: Milka Singh
Europe: Rudolph Harbig
Pacific: Darren Clarke
UK: Dave Jenkins
USA: Michael Johnson
USSR: Viktor Markin

And the results:
1) Johnson
2) Juantorena
3) Harbig
4) Tiacoh
5) Jenkins
6) Markin
7) Clark
8) Singh

Team scores through 16 events:
106 USA
101 Europe
85 USSR
74 Americas
64 Africa
59 UK
53 Pacific
36 Asia

[jsquire]

As the hurdles are put on the track, the athletes setting up their blocks are:
Africa: Tom Lavery
Americas: Earl Thomson
Asia: Lin Tsui
Europe: Guy Drut
Pacific: Peter Gardner
UK: Colin Jackson
USA: Renaldo Nehemiah
USSR: Anatoliy Mikhailov

The results:
1) Nehemiah
2) Jackson
3) Thomson
4) Drut
5) Lavery
6) Mikhailov
7) Gardner
8) Tsui

Team scores through 17 events:
114 USA
106 Europe
88 USSR
80 Americas
68 Africa
66 UK
55 Pacific
37 Asia

[jsquire]

Now the 100 meters. The world’s fastest men are:

Africa: Frank Fredericks
Americas: Donovan Bailey
Asia: Takayoshi Yoshioka
Europe: Herbert Houben
Pacific: Hector Hogan
UK: Linford Christie
USA: Bob Hayes (Lewis didn’t want to triple today)
USSR: Valeriy Borzov

The results:
1) Hayes
2) Christie
3) Bailey
4) Borzov
5) Fredericks
6) Houben
7) Yoshioka
8) Hogan

Team scores through 18 events:
122 USA
109 Europe
93 USSR
86 Americas
73 UK
72 Africa
56 Pacific
39 Asia

[jsquire]

The 5000 meters is the meet’s penultimate race. It’s second to last, too.

Africa: Said Aouita
Americas: Bruce Kidd (Barrios is tired from yesterday’s 10,000)
Asia: Keisuke Sawake
Europe: Paavo Nurmi
Pacific: Murray Halberg
UK: Gordon Pirie
USA: Bob Schul
USSR: Vladimir Kuts (I should have run Bolotnikov yesterday so Kuts didn’t have to double)

The results:
1) Aouita
2) Nurmi
3) Halberg
4) Kuts
5) Pirie
6) Schul
7) Kidd
8) Sawake

Team scores through 19 events:
125 USA
116 Europe
98 USSR
88 Americas
80 Africa
77 UK
62 Pacific
40 Asia

[jsquire]

As we enter the final event, the 4x400 meter relay, all team standings are set with one exception—the UK can catch Africa. Our teams:

Africa: Gabriel Tiacoh, Innocent Egbunike, Charles Asati, Kasheef Hassan
Americas: Herb McKenley, George Rhoden, Bert Cameron, Alberto Juantorena
Asia: Mohamad Al Malky, Sugath Tillakaratne, Sosumo Takano, Milka Singh
Europe: Mario Lanzi, Thomas Schonlebe, Harald Schmid, Rudolph Harbig
Pacific: Kevan Gosper, Edwin Carr, Rick Mitchell, Darren Clark
UK: Eric Liddell, Allen Woodring, Adrian Metcalfe, Dave Jenkins
USA: Lon Myers, Lee Evans, Butch Reynolds, Michael Johnson
USSR: Ardalion Ignatyev, Vadim Arkhipchuk, Nikolay Chernyetskiy, Viktor Markin

The results:
1) USA
2) Americas
3) UK
4) Europe
5) Africa
6) USSR
7) Asia
8) Pacific

Final team scores:
133 USA
121 Europe
101 USSR
95 Americas
84 Africa
83 UK
63 Pacific
42 Asia

[CoachKoby]

What happened to your picks for the 10k?

[tandfman]

>What happened to your picks for the 10k?<

There is no 10,000m in the IAAF World Cup.

[Enrico Caruso]

>Europe: Mario Lanzi, Thomas Schonlebe, Harald Schmid, Rudolph Harbig<

Aw, c'mon. There was only one Mario Lanza.

[jhc68]

My goodness... Walter George as the all-time UK pick? And George and Gunder Hagg beating Jim Ryun? Interesting.

[jsquire]

>>What happened to your picks for the
>10k?<

There is no 10,000m in the IAAF World
>Cup.

There used to be, back in the 70s. See http://trackandfieldnews.com/tfn/discus ... thread=489

[jsquire]

>My goodness... Walter George as the all-time UK
>pick? And George and Gunder Hagg beating Jim
>Ryun? Interesting.

Well, I picked George because I didn't want Coe to double-up. It may be a bit of a stretch, but Coe and George are certainly the best two milers the Brits have ever had.

As far as Hagg beating Ryun . . . Hagg in '41 and '42 was every bit as dominating as Ryun in '66 and '67. He was also probably the world's #1 miler in '44 and '45. Hagg's WRs are at least the equal of Ryun's in terms of number, length of time they stood, and improvement on the existing record. I said it was really hard to separate these milers, so I expect a lot of argument, but I didn't just rank them willy-nilly without looking at the facts.

[Guest]

While I do believe Ryun was as talented as today's best, and if trained as today's runners do, he would run as fast or faster than them, he didn't. So, I would put Morceli ahead of him with no problem at all. No contest. However, despite the dominance of Hagg at his time, and of George, it's almost ridiculous to consider them finishing as close as 50 meters behind Ryun, no matter how they trained. It looks like you are basing your picks on rankings over the years, and competitive records, etc. However, the "intangibles" do come into play. Yes, you said you'd catch some heat. How can Elliot be ahead of Ryun. He has his gold from Rome, but a very thin competitive record. His undefeated string is bandied about, but he ran very few races. He didn't reach his potential is the argument some put forth, but neither did Ryun, and one can point to Ryun's fast finishes in much faster races, as one can do in far greater fashion for Morceli. I guess I'm saying that while it's amusing, it's impossible to compare athletes from different eras, especially when you dig up Walter George from his grave to square off against Morceli, Sullivan, Ryun etc. How about someone trying to pick some races with all time greats racing each other, and trying to factor in the intangibles, like (perceived) potential, etc.? That might be good for even more arguments and laughs. However, it's hard to keep from chuckling, picturing Walter George lined up against some of these guys. I understand how you are doing this, but it shows how goofy things turn out. The gun would go off, and the poor man would wonder why the other runners are sprinting.

Sticking with the guys you have, I see a battle with Morceli and Ryun, with Elliot fighting Sullivan for third.

[jsquire]

These are not idealized races or comparisons of talent (which is itself defies any real definition) but to compare accomplishments viewed in the context of their time. In the context of his time, Ryun had two tremendous seasons with several world records, and then he fell off the top. I'm not here to explain why, becuase it really doesn't matter -- he simply did.

George's professional world record was unbeaten for almost 30 years; he was a runner "ahead of his time". Elliot also had two tremendous seasons with several world records, but one of them happened to be set while winning an Olympic gold medal (which Ryun never did). Hagg had similar accomplishments, but never got the chance to succeed (or fail) at an Olympics.

In 1998, T&FN picked Elliot as the greatest miler of the magazine's first 50 years. I'm willing to accept that they might know a thing or two about track.

[dj]

As the hurdles are put on the track, the athletes setting up their blocks are:

Americas: Earl Thomson

The results:
1) Nehemiah
2) Jackson
3) Thomson
==============

Sorry, but Thomson doesn't finish. He's lying flat on his face, as he's never used blocks before!

[dj]

As we enter the final event, the 4x400 meter relay, all team standings are set with one exception—the UK can catch Africa. Our teams:

UK: Eric Liddell, Allen Woodring, Adrian Metcalfe, Dave Jenkins

The results:
1) USA
2) Americas
3) UK
================

Red Flag! UK is disqualified after USA protests the use of an illegal runner. Allen Woodring was, and always was, American (Mercersburg Academy, Syracuse). Brits could have used Wyndham Hallswelle, or could have created another furor by trying to use Bevil Rudd.

[Ogden Gnash]

>Brits could have used Wyndham Hallswelle<

In fact, he would have been a great anchor man. After all, Hellswelle that ends well.

[Guest]

Of course, the U.S. used Sydney Maree in a World Cup ('81) when he wasn't a U.S. citizen, so the least we can do is lend Woodring to the Brits.

[Guest]

Darn! Bad note-taking. I can't imagine how I got Woodring as a Brit. Replace him with Godfrey Brown!

[Roger Black]

>Replace him with Godfrey Brown!<

Wrong color.

[Guest]

>These are not idealized races or comparisons of
>talent (which is itself defies any real
>definition) but to compare accomplishments viewed
>in the context of their time. In the context of
>his time, Ryun had two tremendous seasons with
>several world records, and then he fell off the
>top. I'm not here to explain why, becuase it
>really doesn't matter -- he simply did.
>

George's professional world record was
>unbeaten for almost 30 years; he was a runner
>"ahead of his time". Elliot also had two
>tremendous seasons with several world records,
>but one of them happened to be set while winning
>an Olympic gold medal (which Ryun never did).
>Hagg had similar accomplishments, but never got
>t the chance to succeed (or fail) at an
>Olympics.

In 1998, T&FN picked Elliot as the
>greatest miler of the magazine's first 50 years.
>I'm willing to accept that they might know a
>thing or two about track.

Yeah, Ryun had his shot, lost at altitude, then was knocked on his arse (which is partly his fault, I've always felt). But, I side with the guy mentioning Elliot's record. Even if TAFNews thinks he's the best miler of all time, I'd bet a lot of people would disagree. He had one great season, and then one great partial season. He didn't have a lot of races when compared to someone like Morceli. Morceli had a long reign, records, tremendous winning streaks and many many fast times. Elliot's record pales in comparison. As to Elliot vs. Ryun, Elliot has a gold, and Ryun a silver, so in honors won, Elliot has an edge. But in marks, no way. Ryun was much faster, and demonstrated superiority if we look at the fastest races of the two men.

Morceli is the best, period. If El G can win the gold (I don't think he will, someone else is going to come along) then he can nail down the top spot over Morceli. Ryun vs. Elliot? Like I said, I'll side with Ryun like Headscratcher up there. I still wonder what some of the Hungarians could have done if their country hadn't been stolen in '56.

[Older Mile Man]

> But, I side with the guy mentioning Elliot's record. Even if TAFNews thinks he's the best miler of all time, I'd bet a lot of people would disagree.<

Not if they ever saw him run.

[Guest]

>> But, I side with the guy mentioning Elliot's
>record. Even if TAFNews thinks he's the best
>miler of all time, I'd bet a lot of people would
>disagree.<

Not if they ever saw him run.

Did see him run in the Coliseum back in '58. Also have "The Supermilers" on tape. He'd get blasted by Morceli, Ryun, Coe. and some other greats. Not only were these guys stronger, they had more leg speed. Sure, Herb was undefeated. Didn't run many races. I saw Snell run also. The ony way Elliot would have been able to beat him would be to have a tremendous lead going into the last half lap. If he could do that. Snell would have ground him up over the last furlong. And Snell couldn't hang with any of the runners mentioned earlier over one mile.

[Guest]

The picks are interesting in this hypothetical meet. On the strength of honors and the like, I don't disagree with much. But if we lined up the great athletes, for real, from say, pre 1960 against the post 1960 bunch, it would be no contest. This includes Elliot. He'd be crushed. Now Bob Hayes, there's a guy from the past who could hang with today's sprinters. But he's post 1960. Elliot's on the cusp, but he'd get murdered. Al Oerter is the only pre 1960 athlete that could rule, and his best years were not in the 1950's.

Oerter, Carl Lewis, Viktor Saneyev. Can't go wrong with those three.

[Guest]

Running the risk of being cynical, I'd say the biggest change in track from the 1950s to today is drugs. However, training, technique, and equipment were still in their infancy. Everyone understands how much the PV and HJ have changed. They don't see other things.

Example: Snell's 1:44.3 stood as a WR until the early 70s. It was tied twice on synthetic tracks, and essentially tied once by Ryun on a cinder track. Snell ran it on a GRASS track that was 385 yards to the lap (so he ran 5 turns instead of the usual 4). While I might not have much to back it up, I'd say that he probably would have run low-1:42 on one of today's tracks. Add in other world-class runnners and a good rabbit or two, and he's under 1:42.00. Now how much have things changed?

Ditto for the comment about Walter George. His training programs are documented; they'd seem ridiculously light by today's junior high standards. And it was nearly impossible to find a track that was even level in the 1880s, much less smooth. Read Pott's Lon Myers bio to get a real understanding of the conditions.

[Guest]

Yeah, Snell is quite a specimen, and he's post 1960. Nutrition has played a role in athletes getting better, there is no doubt about it. Sure, drugs have made an enormous impact, in sprinting and throwing. In the distances, the arrival of EPO and Dr. Gabriele Rosa deciding to leave cycling while he was being investigated dovetail nicely with a tremendous drop in the distance records (3K, steeple, 5k, 10k). No, I don't think all the Africans are doped, but I don't think it's only a few of them either. They have some advantages in terms of location for a few months a year that may help avoid spot testing.

However, all that aside, I was aware of Snell's record on grass. I also wonder about Ryun's potential, if he had pursued the 800 instead of the mile, as he ran negative splits (53/51) that make Borzakovskiy stand out so much today.

I think that using the criteria you are using makes for some good picks, as mentioned earlier. I will say that Walter George certainly LOOKED like a miler, moustache aside. I would bet you have a copy of C. Nelson's book on the 1500/mile as I do. Actually, mine is really old, and I don't necessarily agree with the 1500/mile conversions listed in the appendix, but hey, what's track and field if you can't have some fun arguing about just who you think is the best, was the best, will be the best, and so on. The only sport I see fans do this with as much gusto as track fans is in baseball, and drugs have made that sport into something very different. Bob Costas has made public his laments on many on occasion, saying that it's now impossible to compare players from earlier eras with today's baseballers. I'd say much the same is true in track and field.

I remember Bud Greenspan in '84 picking his winner of an all-time 800 meter race. He had Snell whipping Juantorena, Coe, Ovett, everybody with a 1:42 win. Honestly, that doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility. So your 1:42 for Snell is on the money in my book. As for Ryun, who seems to come up a lot, I think he was a talent that probably wasn't trained correctly, and also had the "make-up" to compete with any of the top athletes of today. He had his short run at the top, and that was that. I think it's the sense of missed opportunities or realization of his failure to reach his potential that galls many fans. Same probably goes for fans of Elliot. He walked away before reaching his potential. This probably kept Percy Cerutty from living to be 120.

How much do you think mondo, etc. has affected the triple jump, by the way? I'm interested just because I was always amazed at the length of Saneyev's career and dominance.

[parkerclay]

Morceli over El G....nah!

[gh]

<<How much do you think mondo, etc. has
>affected the triple jump, by the way? I'm
>interested just because I was always amazed at
>the length of Saneyev's career and dominance.>>\

The two events clearly most revolutionized by modern surfaces were the triple jump and the 400 hurdles. As one whose feeble TJ career was spent on dirt and/or surfaces as hard as the Elgin Marbles (and whose heels and ankles paid the price), I assure you that even the now-rudimentary "tartan" surfaces of hte late-'60s were worth a couple of feet. And that was just for the "bouncability" (jumping off a trampoline if you will), to say nothing of the speed gained ont he runway to begin with.

The big difference in the 400H, of course, was in the ability to carry a shorter stride pattern (shorter in terms of number of strides, not in the length thereof) deeper into the race.

[Guest]

Thanks for the input GH - very interesting and informative indeed. I had suspected as much.

Morceli over EL G? Yeah, I'd take him over EL G.

3:26.43 Hicham El Guerrouj
3:27.83 Noureddine Morceli

The times are the average of each athlete's top 5 races. El G is faster overall, but Morceli was generally finishing faster, and was winning some real races with regularity, rather than every race being a time trial behind a rabbit. There were still some tactics and real races on the circuit in Morceli's heyday. I've only seen El G in two real "races", at the Oly's, he tripped in one, and used bad tactics in another. Morceli had his share of paced races, but he was also in a number of RACES with other runners. I don't think El G has the "savvy" of someone like Morceli. Yeah, Morceli was blocked out in '92, and didn't run well. But he learned. We'll see if El G does. If El G wins in Athens, then he can take the title of best ever as far as I'm concerned. Someone else is going to come along, or some runner who isn't that highly regarded, yet, is probably going to nab the gold in Athens. That's my feeling. El G has been around for a long time. Fastest ever isn't necessarily best ever.

[jsquire]

I'd have to go back and look, but since he came to the fore I think El G has actually lost more un-rabbitted races than he's won. In the WC and a few other championship meets he's had a de facto rabbit helping him out. In any case, he's not invincible, while Morceli was under any circumstances.

[dj]

GH wrote: The big difference in the 400H, of course, was in the ability to carry a shorter stride pattern (shorter in terms of number of strides, not in the length thereof) deeper into the race.

Aside from the "bouncability," the other factor was the consistency in rubber surfaces. No more dead spots in tracks and runways.

[Guest]

Jsquire - I think you're right about El G. I can remember him losing a slow (for him) race to a "Dane" (another Kenyan transplant - not Kipketer). It was a race he should have won easily. Anyone is capable of a bad day or losing, but what stood out was that there was no rabbit for El G in that race. So I guess I've seen him run without rabbits outside of the games. Yeah, technically he had a rabbit in Sydney, but the guy did a crummy job, and El G was in effect his own rabbit, and not a very good one that day. Ngeny knew all he had to do was ... hang on. It's easier to move up on someone than hold them off a lot of the time. At his peak, Morceli seemed capable of winning any kind of race, as did most of the other greats. El G just never has presented that same image, at least not to me.

DJ, that remark about the dead spots in the track is a good point. When I go out on my run (stagger you could say) and hit the local synthetic track, at a hs(!) I always think back to my days chugging around on dirt, tracks with dunes, pits, dead spots, you name it. Good old days my ... foot.