Two Preliminary Positives: Stambolova and Veneva


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Two Preliminary Positives: Stambolova and Veneva

Postby EPelle » Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:12 am

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Re: Two Preliminary Positives: Stambolova and Veneva

Postby Daisy » Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:25 am

The article wrote:the Bulgarian Athletics Federation ....... have cleared two athletes.........of doping rule violations.

Unbelieveable. Read it and weep. The Bulgarian Athletics Federation appears to be sanctioning drugs. What was their reasoning for letting these two off the hook?
The article also wrote:The IAAF would like to outline the following facts related to these two cases:

- Both athletes tested positive following IAAF no-advance-notice, out-of-competition (OOC) doping controls which were conducted in Budapest (HUN) on 24.01.07. [One athlete] provided a further positive sample from an IAAF OOC doping control conducted on 06.02.07 in Sofia (BUL).

- The analysis of the [all three] urine samples ....... conclusively established the administration of testosterone or its precursors.

- All B samples confirmed the initial A sample results.
Last edited by Daisy on Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:33 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby EPelle » Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:28 am

Even better question which we have raised time and again i Sverige -- we being fans, athletes and news reporters: has the Bulgarian Federation always reported all of their discovery findings? One competitor to one of the aforementioned athletes doesn:t believe so, and neither does her agent.
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Postby marknhj » Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:35 am

How can they possibly clear them when A & B samples are both confirmed positive and they apparently caught Veneva twice? Unbelievable.
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Postby EPelle » Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:39 am

From Dagens Nyheter:

- När vi fick det positiva resultatet den 23 mars, bad vi om att även B-provet skulle testas. Resultat var på precis på gränsen och vi har bestämt att inte utfärda några sanktioner, sade Karamarinov enligt den bulgariska nyhetsbyrån Novonite.

"When we received the positive result the 23:rd of march, we asked them to even test the "B"-sample. The result was just on the border, and we have decided to not issue any sanctions," said Karamarinov according to the Bulgarian news bureau Novonite.

http://www.dn.se/DNet/jsp/polopoly.jsp?d=2345&a=672100

Differs quite starkly from:
- The analysis of the [all three] urine samples ....... conclusively established the administration of testosterone or its precursors.

- All B samples confirmed the initial A sample results.
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Postby mump boy » Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:48 am

HAHAHAHAHAH

that just made my day

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :D :D :D :D :D :) :) :lol: :D :D :) :lol: :lol: :D :) :D :lol: :D :D :D :D :) :) :) :) :lol: :lol: :lol: :) :) :D :D :D :) :) :) :) :) :) :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Two Preliminary Positives: Stambolova and Veneva

Postby tafnut » Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:54 am

The article wrote:the Bulgarian Athletics Federation ....... have cleared two athletes.........of doping rule violations.

I know this is a ridiculously stupid question, but did they say WHY they were cleared?
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Re: Two Preliminary Positives: Stambolova and Veneva

Postby Daisy » Wed Jul 18, 2007 6:56 am

tafnut wrote:
The article wrote:the Bulgarian Athletics Federation ....... have cleared two athletes.........of doping rule violations.

I know this is a ridiculously stupid question, but did they say WHY they were cleared?


See post two above.
EPelle wrote:From Dagens Nyheter:
"The result was just on the border, and we have decided to not issue any sanctions," said Karamarinov according to the Bulgarian news bureau Novonite.
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Postby 26mi235 » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:02 am

Can WADA appeal the decision?

On the cycling front, T-Mobile rider Patrick Sinkewitz tested positive on June 8, and analysis that was just released. T-Mobile has come out hard against doping and have been providing ~250,000 Euros for testing. They carry out their own testing, but are doing blood values rather than specific drug tests. Ironically, Sinkewitz just crashed out of the Tour when he hit a pedestrian/fan on the way back from the finish to the hotel.
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Re: Two Preliminary Positives: Stambolova and Veneva

Postby tafnut » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:04 am

EPelle wrote:From Dagens Nyheter:"The result was just on the border, and we have decided to not issue any sanctions," said Karamarinov according to the Bulgarian news bureau Novonite.


Is that like being just a LITTLE bit pregnant?
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Re: Two Preliminary Positives: Stambolova and Veneva

Postby 26mi235 » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:11 am

tafnut wrote:
EPelle wrote:From Dagens Nyheter:"The result was just on the border, and we have decided to not issue any sanctions," said Karamarinov according to the Bulgarian news bureau Novonite.


Is that like being just a LITTLE bit pregnant?


No

It is a test with a statistical distribution on both the sample taken and the underlying quantities being measured, so there is a probability of both false negatives and false positives. Generally the tests should be set up with 'thresholds' set high enough for there to be few false positives. The quality of the test and the lab execution of the test affect the variation around the 'true' value. I believe that the standard on testosterone is now 4:1 but it used to be 6:1.
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Re: Two Preliminary Positives: Stambolova and Veneva

Postby tafnut » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:17 am

26mi235 wrote:No
It is a test with a statistical distribution on both the sample taken and the underlying quantities being measured, so there is a probability of both false negatives and false positives. Generally the tests should be set up with 'thresholds' set high enough for there to be few false positives. The quality of the test and the lab execution of the test affect the variation around the 'true' value. I believe that the standard on testosterone is now 4:1 but it used to be 6:1.


I appreciate what you're saying, but isn't this a case where it DID meet the 'standard'? So where's the leeway to 'not accept' the sanction, and what precedent does that set for others who want to bend the rules? How does the Bulgarian federation supercede the World Governing Body? Can't the IAAF just suspend the Bulgarians and not let them participate in GP/GL/WC?
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Postby Swoosher » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:22 am

I think you will see the following

These were IAAF OOC tests as part of the IAAF testing programme. Under IAAF Rules once a positive result is returned it is the Member Federation who must hold the initial hearing - thus in this case you ask the bulgarian federation to suspend their star athletes. What a surprise it does not happen

Once the Federation takes a decision the IAAF can and from the sounds of the IAAF statement will appeal the decision to CAS.
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Postby EPelle » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:24 am

Numbers just aren:t as universal as they once were during the days when it didn:t matter what language one spoke :-)

IAAF:
- The analysis of the [all three] urine samples ....... conclusively established the administration of testosterone or its precursors.

- All B samples confirmed the initial A sample results.
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Postby tafnut » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:26 am

EPelle wrote:Numbers just aren:t as universal as they once were
You'd better hide. Eldy just sub-leased Squack's henchmen to take you out for that heresy!
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Postby Swoosher » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:27 am

Forgot to add - in relation to the "numbers"

the IAAF report says that the test was done with IRMS. Basically means it is not about the ratio - but proves that the steroid was from a source outside the body (rather than natural).
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Postby Daisy » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:36 am

Swoosher wrote:the IAAF report says that the test was done with IRMS. Basically means it is not about the ratio - but proves that the steroid was from a source outside the body (rather than natural).


Good point. This is how they got Landis too, although his case is still pending, of course.
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Postby EPelle » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:38 am

Our Swedish papers said it was also the test performed on Gatlin (when they identified testosterone or precursors to testosterone).
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Postby tafnut » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:39 am

Has the toothpaste excuse been used already? :o
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Postby EPelle » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:44 am

Whether or not the CAS upholds or overturns the Bulgarian Federation:s decisions, how will that turn the IAAF wheels in terms of performing its own out-of-competition testing in Bulgaria?
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Postby Swoosher » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:49 am

EPelle wrote:Whether or not the CAS upholds or overturns the Bulgarian Federation:s decisions, how will that turn the IAAF wheels in terms of performing its own out-of-competition testing in Bulgaria?


Not sure I understand the question - these were IAAF tests. I assume they IAAF will continue to do more!
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Postby EPelle » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:51 am

You answered it... I should have re-phrased it to ask how many more random tests will they do, and if it will be targeted testing as these seem to have been.
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Postby Swoosher » Wed Jul 18, 2007 7:55 am

EPelle wrote:You answered it... I should have re-phrased it to ask how many more random tests will they do, and if it will be targeted testing as these seem to have been.


I think you are right - they seem targetted as Veneva had two OOC tests within 2 weeks according to the IAAF information. I guess it would make sense to target others from the country and training groups
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Postby Flumpy » Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:29 am

I'm all for targetted testing. They should do more of it, especially for the likes of these two obvious cheats.
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Postby Pego » Wed Jul 18, 2007 8:41 am

Flumpy wrote:I'm all for targetted testing. They should do more of it, especially for the likes of these two obvious cheats.


It leaves me speechless how people determine that somebody is "obvious" anything.
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Postby Atanvarno » Wed Jul 18, 2007 9:37 am

26mi235 wrote:On the cycling front, T-Mobile rider Patrick Sinkewitz tested positive on June 8, and analysis that was just released.


And German national TV-stations ARD and ZDF took the opportunity to completely stop their coverage of this years Tour de France
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Postby eldrick » Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:47 am

Swoosher wrote:Forgot to add - in relation to the "numbers"

the IAAF report says that the test was done with IRMS. Basically means it is not about the ratio - but proves that the steroid was from a source outside the body (rather than natural).


this needs to be cleared up :

iaaf saying it was the "artificial" testosterone test where numbers don't matter, whereas the bulgos are saying "debateable b ratio" which indicates that it was the 4:1 ratio test they are talking about

assuming iaaf sent b results back to bulgos & it was the "artiificial" testo +ve, no numbers shoud ever have come into it
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Postby 26mi235 » Wed Jul 18, 2007 10:55 am

Atanvarno wrote:
26mi235 wrote:On the cycling front, T-Mobile rider Patrick Sinkewitz tested positive on June 8, and analysis that was just released.


And German national TV-stations ARD and ZDF took the opportunity to completely stop their coverage of this years Tour de France


It is not yet clear if this action is for today for for the duration of the Tour. The production people were sitting outside their trucks today. A complete withdrawal would likely have lead to packing up and going home, I would think. Thus, I am not sure a complete decision has been made.
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Postby bennyg » Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:16 am

Anybody who does not believe that the Rumanians and Bulgarians have been cheating for the last few decades, also believes in the toooth fairy.
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Postby Atanvarno » Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:27 am

26mi235 wrote:It is not yet clear if this action is for today for for the duration of the Tour.


As of today it's no coverage until Sinkewitz' B-sample is tested. If that comes back positive, no more coverage at all.
And the first news commentators are saying that the same standards should be applied to other sports .
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Postby gh » Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:28 am

bennyg wrote:Anybody who does not believe that the Rumanians and Bulgarians have been cheating for the last few decades, also believes in the toooth fairy.


Yes, and those of every other nation on the planet. Period.
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Postby George P. » Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:37 am

gh wrote:
bennyg wrote:Anybody who does not believe that the Rumanians and Bulgarians have been cheating for the last few decades, also believes in the toooth fairy.


Yes, and those of every other nation on the planet. Period.

Then, are we supposed to sit back and enjoy this scandalous state of affairs?
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Postby gh » Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:47 am

No, it was simply my way of not allowing anybody to tar a whole nation without any evidence. I should just have yanked the offending post.
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Postby eldrick » Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:56 am

just a jokey post ( i hope gh sees the funny side ), but whenever i had to type stambolova, i always initially instinctively typed strombalova, before correcting it
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Postby gh » Wed Jul 18, 2007 11:58 am

Not Stanozolova?
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Postby eldrick » Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:01 pm

i'm just a lova
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Postby 26mi235 » Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:09 pm

Atanvarno wrote:
26mi235 wrote:It is not yet clear if this action is for today for for the duration of the Tour.


As of today it's no coverage until Sinkewitz' B-sample is tested. If that comes back positive, no more coverage at all.
And the first news commentators are saying that the same standards should be applied to other sports .


So, we will not talk about the fact that the German stations pulled coverage of the Tour today? The news was announced, not leaked, by parties that had authority to announce the test result. It is not a rumor. The "B" might never be tested, although I think that it will in this case, as Sinkewitz professes absolute surprise.
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Postby gh » Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:11 pm

German TV coverage of a cycling race not particularly germane to a track & field current events forum.
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Postby Atanvarno » Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:14 pm

gh wrote:German TV coverage of a cycling race not particularly germane to a track & field current events forum.


Read my second paragraph. With three athletics positives this week alone it could become a t&f current events topic sooner than we like it.
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Postby 26mi235 » Wed Jul 18, 2007 12:15 pm

gh wrote:German TV coverage of a cycling race not particularly germane to a track & field current events forum.


And if they will not broadcast the Berlin meet? Like it or not, cycling is the sport with probably the greatest degree of similarity with T&F
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