All-Time Combo Men's 1/2/4 Sprinters (Blake #4)

[gh]

Latest compilation by Justin Clouder--scoring on the IAAF Tables--now posted to the front page.

The leaders:

3817 Michael Johnson - 10.09/1182 - 19.32/1335 - 43.18/1300
3687 Mike Marsh - 9.93/1241 - 19.73/1270 - 45.08/1176
3679 Xavier Carter - 10.09/1182 - 19.63/1286 - 44.53/1211

[BCBaroo]

What would Tyson need to run the 400 to top the list?

[George P.]

What would Tyson need to run the 400 to top the list?

Sub-43.18?

[guruof track]

What would Tyson need to run the 400 to top the list?

Sub-43.18?

Probably a low 44 or lower.........dont quote me

[gh]

43.83 puts him a point ahead of MJ

[gh]

And to answer another anticipated question, what if you count Gay's indoor 47.08 (he doesn't have an outdoor 400 that anybody knows of), which the compiler does not? (but T&FN does)

he's tied for No. 10 w/ Jon Drummond at 3613

[BCBaroo]

43.83 puts him a point ahead of MJ

My gawd... that sorta puts things in perspective.

[guruof track]

And to answer another anticipated question, what if you count Gay's indoor 47.08 (he doesn't have an outdoor 400 that anybody knows of), which the compiler does not? (but T&FN does)

he's tied for No. 10 w/ Jon Drummond at 3613

That why they have Domenik Peterson listed as a 20.62 instead of his 20.43.

[George P.]

43.83 puts him a point ahead of MJ

My gawd... that sorta puts things in perspective.

There's already Wariner -- and there's a bunch of guys (well, a quite few) crowding 44-flat right now. Gay is not only very fast. As other's have pointed out, he's also very strong, regularly training "over-distance." So -- in theory -- a 43.8 should be doable.
But that begs the question, would it be prudent? Here we have arguably the best pure sprinter ... well, ever. Do we really want him to divert his training and focus to accommodate the fondest desires of a few statheads? No, please God!

[gh]

Can I be the first to suggest that he leapfrog Wariner and jump to the 800?

[paulthefan]

Can I be the first to suggest that being a 9.8 /19.6 guy is one thing (and what an amazing thing it is) but doing so and also droping a 43.8 is asking way way too much of the human body... no give him a few years away from the 100m (let his 100m time lapse to 10.1) and put him on a 400m regime and maybe just maybe 43.7 is doable!.. Id suggest he consider preparing to give it a try ..............in the winter of 09 of course after he picks up some short sprint hardware in Beijing.

[George P.]

Can I be the first to suggest that he leapfrog Wariner and jump to the 800?

Actually, ... although I'm not clever enough to hunt it up, I believe that in one recent and criminally irreverent post about AP, I already made this "suggestion." (If I did, EPelle not doubt can run it down.)

[BCBaroo]

I think Gay is doing just fine in his 2 events...

[26mi235]

I think that we are not long before we see a 9.7 and 19.5 from Gay. Give his 200 the Atlanta conditions and his 100 AP's 100 conditions and you are already there (maybe even 19.4x, 9.7x). Given these numbers, it would only take a 44.6 or more to top MJ (pick up 0.075 in the 100 -> about 0.4-.5 in points in the 400, and picking up 0.15 in the 200 is worth another 0.4, added to 43.83 that yields about 44.7).

[George P.]

I think that we are not long before we see a 9.7 and 19.5 from Gay. Give his 200 the Atlanta conditions and his 100 AP's 100 conditions and you are already there (maybe even 19.4x, 9.7x). Given these numbers, it would only take a 44.6 or more to top MJ (pick up 0.075 in the 100 -> about 0.4-.5 in points in the 400, and picking up 0.15 in the 200 is worth another 0.4, added to 43.83 that yields about 44.7).

After Indy, it's tempting to predict the whole world is about to fall at Tyson Gay's feet. History suggests that such a prediction would be premature. My guess is that TG just had a "mini-peak" (let's hope it was only "mini"), that the center will indeed hold (as philosophers say), and that Gay will resume mortality in the coming weeks -- until it really counts.

[tandfman]

Ah, if only the athletes cared as much about this sort of thing as some of us do! I suspect that if Gay really wanted to put himself in a very high position on this list--maybe even #1--he probably could. But it probably would require that he train for the 400 in a way that would risk compromising his training for the 100.

Obviously, there are some common elements and plenty of guys have done all three (though perhaps not all at the same time). But given what he wants to do--and is quite close to doing--in the 100, I think it would be unwise of him to try to do what it would take to run a 44 second 400 at this time. At some point in the future, perhaps he can do something to satisfy us stat nuts. Meanwhile, he's gotta do what he's gotta do, and we've gotta be patient.

[Justin Clouder]

We need to organise some special races...a 400 for 100 guys and vice versa...

Merritt really needs to run a 100, ideally against Jeremy Wariner, Usain Bolt, Reggie Witherspoon, Gary Kikaya and Bryshun Nellum.

Most standout 200/400 guy with no 100 best is Danny Everett - 20.08/1216 - 43.81/1258 for 2476 means that 10.21 would have made the top 10.

There are of course many 100/200 guys who would easily qualify with high 46s (actually, that reminds me, I didn't update Marlon Devonish...)

Justin

[eldrick]

At some point in the future, perhaps he can do something to satisfy us stat nuts

i'm no stats-nut & he'd satisfy me by not running a 400 in his life !!!

[Daniel Foster]

I was thinking of Bryshon Nellum when reading this topic. His 20.43 = 1163 and 45.38 = 1157. I know that he ran great legs on the 400m relay for Long Beach Poly, but does he have a recorded 100m for 2007?

[George P.]

I was thinking of Bryshon Nellum when reading this topic. His 20.43 = 1163 and 45.38 = 1157. I know that he ran great legs on the 400m relay for Long Beach Poly, but does he have a recorded 100m for 2007?

Hm, don't think young Bryshon is quite ready to compete in this particular "heat". His time will come, maybe.

[gh]

I was thinking of Bryshon Nellum when reading this topic. His 20.43 = 1163 and 45.38 = 1157. I know that he ran great legs on the 400m relay for Long Beach Poly, but does he have a recorded 100m for 2007?

HS editors say not in any prep competitino worthy of the name, ever, but not impossible for him to have run one in an age-group meet of some kind.

[gh]

Hold the phone! National age-group database apparently lists onew for him..... as a midget in '01....

13.18!

We can't use that for his total until we get a wind reading however

[gh]

And 10.84 as an Intermediate, worth 925.... still doesn't make the bottom of the list.

[Justin Clouder]

New list here: http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/displa ... p?id=16841

Usain Bolt in at #6, Ato Boldon at #49, Reggie Witherspoon in the lower reaches.

Justin

[pela2]

Here is some more

New performers
3404 - Ivory Williams - 10.13/1167 - 20.62/1135 - 46.25/1102
3404 - Tony Allen - 10.40/1072 - 20.41/1166 - 45.23/1166
3368 - Llewellyn Herbert - 10.30/1107 - 20.50/1152 - 46.15/1109
3367 - Charles Asati - 10.44*/1058 - 20.66/1129 - 45.01/1180
3355 - Reggie Harris - 10.43/1062 - 20.60/1138 - 45.41/1155
3354 - Carlton Young - 10.39/1075 - 20.73/1118 - 45.32/1161
3348 - Fernando Acevedo - 10.43/1062 - 20.69/1124 - 45.30/1162
3345 - Eddie Carey - 10.44*/1058 - 20.84*/1102 - 44.94/1185
3338 - Jah Shawn St Julian - 10.44*/1058 - 20.30/1182 - 46.33/1098
3334 - Gerhard Barnard - 10.31/1103 - 20.58/1141 - 46.45/1090
3326 - Aaron Payne - 10.42/1065 - 20.81/1107 - 45.43/1154
3318 - Greg Moore - 10.37/1082 - 20.57/1142 - 46.39/1094
3318 - George Page - 10.29/1110 - 20.78/1111 - 46.34/1097
3311 - Adrian Patrick - 10.38/1079 - 20.92/1091 - 45.63/1141
3311 - ReVey Scott - 10.38/1079 - 20.65/1130 - 46.26/1102
3308 - David Kirui - 10.44*/1058 - 20.94*/1088 - 45.30/1162
3303 - John Lawson - 10.46/1051 - 20.72/1120 - 45.78/1132
3301 - Desmond Ross - 10.27/1117 - 20.94*/1088 - 46.36/1096

delete
3482 - Desai Williams 45.92 was Subsequent to drugs disqualification - not legal
3447 - Pat Johnson Pat Johnson. The 45.38 was made by Pat Johnson USA, not AUS
3325 - Takahiko Yamamura delete PB 21.13 ('97) not 20.87

Corrections
3565 - Calvin Smith - 9.93/1241 - 19.99/1230 - 46.39/1094 PB 46.39 ('88 ) not 46.43
3522 - Patrick Delice - 10.22/1135 - 20.32/1179 - 44.58/1208 I have his PB from Praire View 1993 for both 100m and 200m. Are these time fishy?
3516 - Leandro Peñalver - 10.06/1193 - 20.42/1164 - 45.35/1159 His 20.22 doubtful timing from Mexico City '88
3509 - Troy Douglas - 10.19/1146 - 20.19/1199 - 45.26/1164 10.16 doping dq, next best 10.19
3500 - Iván García - 10.09/1182 - 20.17/1202 - 46.03/1116 10.09 from Mexico City ('93), included in 2001 edition of Quercetani/Mappa All time world list
3449 - Solomon Wariso - 10.33/1096 - 20.50/1152 - 44.68/1201 PB 100m 10.33 ('94) (not 10.34)
3447 - Chris Nelloms - 10.33/1096 - 20.23/1193 - 45.36/1158 PB 100m 10.33 ('92)(not 10.36)
3441 - Sidnei Telles de Souza - 10.27/1117 - 20.40/1167 - 45.38/1157 His 20.27 doubtful timing from Americana '93
3431 - Bryan Bronson - 10.30/1107 - 20.28/1185 - 45.66/11.39 PB 45.66 ('93) (not 45.64)
3422 - Harlan Davis - 10.23/1132 - 20.34/1176 - 46.07/1114 20.34 = 1176 (not 1165) and PB 46.07 ('88 ), not 46.04
3419 - Han Chaoming - 10.31/1103 - 20.42/1164 - 45.46/1152 PB 20.42 ('96) not 20.54
3400 - David Jenkins - 10.36/1086 - 20.66/1129 - 44.93/1185 PB 44.93 ('75) not 44.92
3379 - Yuzo Kanemaru - 10.32/1100 - 20.69/1124 - 45.41/1155 PB 20.69 ('06) not 20.71
3373 - Leo Settle - 10.32/1100 - 20.50/1152 - 45.95/1121 PB 10.32 ('00) not 10.30
3367 - Tim Benjamin - 10.52/1031 - 20.67/1127 - 44.56/1209 10.48 was wind-aided
3355 - Earle Laing - 10.33/1096 - 20.56/1144 - 46.04/1115 PB 20.56('86) not 20.58
3348 - Robert Kurnicki - 10.32/1100 - 20.46/1158 - 46.45/1090 PB 20.46 ('93) not 20.54
3327 - Clifton Cambell - 10.47/1048 - 20.73/1118 - 45.32/1161 PB 45.32 ('88 ) not 45.23
3323 - Floyd Brown - 10.34/1093 - 20.83/1104 - 45.87/1126 45.87 gives 1126, not 1125


Maybe some can be inculded, it's up to you...

[dhanesworth]

Gay may never again make a real attempt to run the 400 meters but it is interesting to note he won state in the 100M and 400M as a sophomore in high school (second in the 200M) according to an article on Combest.

[Justin Clouder]

Thanks pela, very grateful, lots of good corrections / additions there.

A few queries:

- I believe the 1988 IbAm Ch marks were legit (Hernandez 20.22)
- Garcia's 10.09 was a hand time
- I believe Herbert's 20.50 was windy
- nothing from Prairie Vire can be trusted: all most likely hand times (Delice 10.22)
- I don't agree with deleting marks like Desai Williams' 45.92 (personal opinion)
- the Americana marks have always looked legit to me (de Souza 20.27)
- several other marks you list are nwi marks I consider to be most likely windy
- there are a few more converted marks than I am comfortable with, though all the ones you list look like good candidates.

But most will be in the next update. Thanks again.

Justin

[gh]

Gay may never again make a real attempt to run the 400 meters but it is interesting to note he won state in the 100M and 400M as a sophomore in high school (second in the 200M) according to an article on Combest.

Ran 47.08 indoors this year.

[Justin Clouder]

Quickly...for pela...

- Tim Benjamin has a legal 10.48 (2 Bath 16 Sep 00)
- the listed Pat Johnson IS the USA one (3447)
- David Kirui 2 nwi hand times doesn't cut it
- Reggie Harris no details of 10.43/91
- Eddie Carey 2 nwi hand times no good
- Desmond Ross 20.62w/19.8hw/20.7h but no legit, legal auto time
- Laing 20.56 is nwi, prefer to use 20.58
- Han Chaoming 20.42 I believe was windy

Everything not mentioned here or above has been changed for the next update, thanks again.

Justin

[nexis1]

Justin,

I have found this result for Tyson:

CLASS AAA Boys 400 Meter Dash

Finals Results - Tuesday 04/20/99

PLACE ATHLETE NAME SCHOOL TIME PTS
===== ============================ ========================= ==== ====
1 Tyson Gay Lafayette 49.7 10
2 Ryan New Pulaski County 50.5 8
3 Andre Ralston Louisville Dupont Manual 50.9 6
4 Brandon Adams Henderson County 51.6 5
5 Culee Jennings Louisville Male 51.7 3.50
5 Jerome Johnson Daviess County 51.7 3.50
7 Wes Alexander Henderson County 51.9 1.50
7 Matt Combs Daviess County 51.9 1.50
9 Joe Griffis Pulaski County 52.5
10 Fernando Thomas Scott County 52.6

Here is the link:
http://www.dyestat.com/9out/states/ky/ky430top10.html

So that gives Gay 49.70(900)+9.84(1274)+19.62(1287)=3461!! tied for 68th.
This is however temporary as you did say you would include tysons indoor time if he did not run another 400m outdoors this yr.

[pela2]

Quickly...for pela...

- Tim Benjamin has a legal 10.48 (2 Bath 16 Sep 00)
- the listed Pat Johnson IS the USA one (3447)
- David Kirui 2 nwi hand times doesn't cut it
- Reggie Harris no details of 10.43/91
- Eddie Carey 2 nwi hand times no good
- Desmond Ross 20.62w/19.8hw/20.7h but no legit, legal auto time
- Laing 20.56 is nwi, prefer to use 20.58
- Han Chaoming 20.42 I believe was windy

Everything not mentioned here or above has been changed for the next update, thanks again.

Justin

a last comment, many of the nwi was posted as legal in ATFS annuals....

something was right, something was wrong

another day at work

[Justin Clouder]

Justin,

I have found this result for Tyson:

Thanks for that.

It does fascinate me that despite there being over 250 men in that list, most people are more interested in who is not in it.

I'll put Tyson Gay in at 49.70 if that's what people wish. I just think it defeats the purpose and the spirit of the compilation.

Justin but also

[Justin Clouder]

a last comment, many of the nwi was posted as legal in ATFS annuals....

With due respect to Peter Matthews, this is not a reliable guide.

Peter has what I consider to be a generous attitude to nwi marks, which is to list them in the absence of good evidence that they are windy (which, of course, is almost always absent because...there's no wind reading). Mirko Jalava does the same on Tilastopaya, gh takes the same 'benefit of the doubt to the athlete' approach.

I am often told that "it must be legal because otherwise so-and-so would not have listed it". When I then ask the person who was supposed to check, it turns out they assumed someone else had checked...or just put it in to let people decide for themselves.

I do it differently - I list everything nwi as windy unless there is evidence (in the form of eye witness reports or a slew of other wind readings from the meeting) otherwise. For this compilation I have generally gone with what is 'accepted', ie included nwi marks, but in some cases I take a different view.

Thanks again for your time on the corrections, really appreciated.

Justin

[gh]

Justin,

I have found this result for Tyson:

Thanks for that.

It does fascinate me that despite there being over 250 men in that list, most people are more interested in who is not in it.

I'll put Tyson Gay in at 49.70 if that's what people wish. I just think it defeats the purpose and the spirit of the compilation.

Justin but also

Welcome to one of the hard facts about journalism; you don't get far trying to sell people copy they're not interested in!

So, if you wanna be really loved, ditch this silly sprint shit and give us all the possible Webb permutations!

[wamego relays champ]

I'll put Tyson Gay in at 49.70 if that's what people wish.

Actually, the result provided looked like it was not auto-timed, so you'd have to convert to 49.84.