Who kicked the hardest?


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Who kicked the hardest?

Postby Guest » Tue May 27, 2003 8:12 pm

I would be interested to know who people think has had the greatest kick. I recently saw a documentary on Snell at modesto when he put 20metres on the field in what looked like 21 metres he had phenomnal acceleration. When he won his olympic gold in Tokyo he was 15 meteres up on the feild he could just destroy people with his kick. As you can see I vote snell.
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby Guest » Tue May 27, 2003 8:54 pm

Ryun ran a 36.4 at the end of a 3:38 race (that's 48 second pace). So did Aouita. Morceli was a blazing fast finisher. Snell also, with his 24 and 25 second last 200's. Hard to say. Ryun seemed to be able to do it without anyone close over the last 200.

Looks like this could turn into another very long thread. I'll vote for Morceli - just ahead of Ryun.
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby jsquire » Wed May 28, 2003 3:00 am

This is trivial, and an exercise in semantics, but I'll go for it anyway.

Who kicked the HARDEST? Snell. According to one of his competitors in a Bud Greenspan film, his feet dug out pits in the cinders and threw the filling over the other runners' heads when he started his kick in the '64 OG 1500m.

Who kicked the FASTEST? That's another question altogether.
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby parkerclay » Wed May 28, 2003 4:16 am

The best sprint kick that I can recall is Butch Reynolds during his 43.29 WR in '88. He literally took off the last 50 or so and blew by Everett, Lewis & Hernandez
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby gandalf » Wed May 28, 2003 5:52 am

>This is trivial, and an exercise in semantics,
>but I'll go for it anyway.

Who kicked the
>HARDEST? Snell. According to one of his
>competitors in a Bud Greenspan film, his feet dug
>out pits in the cinders and threw the filling
>over the other runners' heads when he started his
>kick in the '64 OG 1500m.>>

Maybe you never ran on cinders; having crap thrown at/over/under/all around you was SOP no matter who was in front of you.

The "hardest" tale I can tell is that they used to say that one of Snell's biggest rivals, George Kerr of Jamaica, pulled back with such excessive force, that he frequently pulled the backs out of his shoes (i.e., his heel would ripo right out the back) and adidas had to make him specially over-sewn shoes. No idea if any truth to that though.
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby racewalker » Wed May 28, 2003 5:59 am

Miruts Yifter was no slouch in the kick department.
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby Guest » Wed May 28, 2003 7:08 am

Juha Vaahtainen at the '71 ECs in the 5K and 10K.
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby jsquire » Wed May 28, 2003 7:15 am

How about some numbers, like last-lap splits (or last 100, 200, or 300)? I don't know any without looking them up, so I'm curious.
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby Guest » Wed May 28, 2003 8:36 am

Dangerous to rely on memory, but I recall that Vaahtainen dropped a final 400m of 53-something in the 10K. It was a shocker.
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby Guest » Wed May 28, 2003 8:53 am

There is absolutely no way anyone can be getting faster in the last 50 meters of a 400 race (unless they were jogging the first 350), so it wasn't a kick per se - Reynolds just slowed down a lot less than the others...
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby jsquire » Wed May 28, 2003 10:44 am

There's a story about Vaatainen that Arthur Lydiard tells (which may or may not be true). When he came to Finland, Vaatainen had too big an ego to be seen taking advice from Lydiard, and downplayed the Kiwi's expertise. But he sat behind a screen during a public lecture Lydiard gave, took notes, and used the knowledge for his stunning 1971 season. Vaatainen admitted this to Lydiard only a few years ago.
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby gh » Wed May 28, 2003 11:09 am

>Dangerous to rely on memory, but I recall that
>Vaahtainen dropped a final 400m of 53-something
>in the 10K. It was a shocker.>>

Yes, Väätäinen ran 53.8 for the last lap of the 1971 European Champs 10K. But that's only part of the story. Bear with me. First, here's the all-time world list when that race began:

27:39.4 Clarke
27:47.0 Bedford
28:04.4 Haase
28:06.4 Keino
28:06.6 Taylor
28:06.6 Sviridov
28:10.6 Roelants
28:11.8 Stewart
28:12.4 Mikitenko
28:13.8 Baidyuk

So Bedford had almost a 20-second PR bulge on the second-best guy in the field (Haase). And he ends up, coincidentally, matching Haase's PR of 28:04.4. And finishes an out-of-it 6th!

1. Väätäinen 27:52.8 PR; 2. Haase 27:53.4 PR; 3. Sharafetdinov 27:56.4 PR; 4. Korica 27:58.4 PR; 5. Haro 27:59.4 PR; 6. Bedford, not a PR.

But here's the spooky part (and, perhaps, a caution as to what might happen to Paula Radcliffe this summer). Bedford forged the early pace (a tough one) and was still in the lead at the bell. Five guys ran him down. Don't know his split, but if he were equal w/ V at the bell and V ran 53.8, then he ran 65.4.

But here's the angle I like. There are those who were familiar enough w/ Bedford's running (I never saw him in person that I can think of), or what some would charactreize more as "plodding" that if he had skipped the first 24 laps of the race, then jumped in with the first 5 right at the bell, and had produced a PR 400, he still would have finished 6th!
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby Guest » Wed May 28, 2003 12:14 pm

That's right. Bedford listed his 400 PR as 55 seconds.
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby jhc68 » Wed May 28, 2003 4:46 pm

OK, then, who was the SLOWEST finisher, Bedford or Clarke? Both men enabled a lot of others to run very fast races.
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby Guest » Wed May 28, 2003 5:28 pm

This is a fun thread.With no hard numbers to support it, I think Bedford was the slower finisher (compared to Clarke who I recall sometimes had some fairly decent last laps--certainly faster than 65.4) Other "slow" finishers who have run fast 5K or 10K's that come to mind are Prefontaine,Terry Williams,Bob Kennedy,Ed Eyestone, Alberto Salazar et al. But the thing I love about these "slow" finishers is that they are the gutty, pace pushers that make for exciting, fast splits and record breaking preformances!
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby Guest » Wed May 28, 2003 5:35 pm

Oath to that!
On the subject of the slowest finishers that gifted others fast times. Bayi in christchurch would have to count although he still won he picked up a massive fridge and walker was eating him up.
As for quickest finishers, well there have been some great ones, but my personal opinion runs with Ryun he always expected to do his last lap 2-3 seconds quicker than the rest, thats why when he first ran 3.51 mile he thought he was going under 3.50 but he died to much. He regularly finished quicker than 53secs.
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby Guest » Wed May 28, 2003 5:43 pm

Ryun didn't die in his 3:51.1. The last 120 was his fastest part of the last lap, unofficially 14 flat. He had no idea he was running so fast, he said he felt so strong he thought he had run 3:56 - 57. He said as he crossed the the finish he felt as if he could run another mile just as fast. He should have started his kick sooner, and run all out. He said he just picked up the pace, but had no idea he was running so fast. Ryun clocked 53.7 for the last 440 without running all out. That 36.4 300 of his is outrageous. Morceli also, as mentioned above, was a fierce finisher in his prime.

Bayi was indeed dying in the stretch of his record 1500, but he had way too much of a lead on Walker.
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby Guest » Wed May 28, 2003 5:48 pm

Hard to say he had way to much of a lead on walker when they both finished within half a second of each other!
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby Guest » Wed May 28, 2003 5:53 pm

Walker ran him down in the last 200, but couldn't quite catch him. Bayi had way too much of lead at the 1200 mark. He was dying in the stretch (not that he would admit it, but tape and pictures show otherwise).
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby Guest » Thu May 29, 2003 10:32 am

>Hard to say he had way to much of a lead on
>walker when they both finished within half a
>second of each other!

What the heck does that mean? A runner can have a huge lead, then all but a few meters are eaten up by the guys chasing him. That's what happened to Bayi.
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby kiwi_runner » Thu May 29, 2003 1:28 pm

The 40th anniversary of the Modesto mile was acknowledged in NZ recently with a screening of Snell's copy of the film of the race. There were also interviews with the runners including Beatty who claimed he would have won if he hadn't been injured. I seriously doubt it. In top form Snell could have run away from anyone, including Elliot and Ryun.
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby Guest » Thu May 29, 2003 4:21 pm

What the heck does
>that mean? A runner can have a huge lead, then
>all but a few meters are eaten up by the guys
>chasing him. That's what happened to Bayi.

What it means, is originally it was said bayi had 'too much of a lead' if this was the case he would have won easily, the fact walker ran him right down means it was only just enough of a lead anything less and he would have been beat. When judging someones ability over a distance you can't say Bayis is way better than walker because he had a huge lead over walker at 1200, it is the distance at the end that counts. The distance at the end is the sole factor to determine each's ability at that event.
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby Guest » Thu May 29, 2003 4:34 pm

>

What the heck does
>that mean? A runner can
>have a huge lead, then
>all but a few meters are
>eaten up by the guys
>chasing him. That's what
>happened to Bayi.

What it means, is
>originally it was said bayi had 'too much of a
>lead' if this was the case he would have won
>easily, the fact walker ran him right down means
>it was only just enough of a lead anything less
>and he would have been beat. When judging
>someones ability over a distance you can't say
>Bayis is way better than walker because he had a
>huge lead over walker at 1200, it is the distance
>at the end that counts. The distance at the end
>is the sole factor to determine each's ability at
>that event.

That doesn't seem to make sense to me. I think I know what the other posters were getting at when commenting on your earlier post. Walker left his kick to late - or he let Bayi get too much of a lead. He finished much faster but ran out of race. Later that year, he stayed right on Bayi and easily ran away, with Bayi pretty much giving up. One runner can be going at too conservative a pace, and despite finishing fast can easily be far from his potential, having not used all of his energy, etc.

I also saw the remark about Ryun up there. He didn't run out of gas in 67. That's ridiculous. The fastest part of his race was the last lap, the last 200, etc. He was just cruising along, with no idea of how fast he was going. He had said several times he was a terrible judge of pace when he was leading.
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby Guest » Thu May 29, 2003 4:54 pm

Maybe I've been mislead, the report I have read of Ryuns initial world mile record says that when he heard his 1200 split he thought he was going to be able to run under 3.50 but then tied up and ran 3.51. This may not be true but it is what I was lead to beleive. If not Ryun was better than I realised.
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby Guest » Thu May 29, 2003 5:01 pm

In Ryun's first record, he was tired. He couldn't run 3:50. That was in '66. In '67, he was a far better runner. He had no idea he was running so fast. Look at the splits from his races in '67. The last 1200 of his 3:33.1 was in 2:46, about as good as what the top guys now could do. The other posts already mentioned his 50 point finishes and 36.4 in Germany in a 3:38 'tactical' race. He was freakish.

I think I know what you mean about runners at the finish, but if you've run some races, you'll know that isn't necessarily the case.
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby Guest » Thu May 29, 2003 9:27 pm

Morceli was a very fast finisher. Underrated in terms of raw speed. This site lists his yearly performances, splits, etc. Very fast finishes in fast and slow races. Great runner.

http://www.cs.rochester.edu/u/tetreaul/morceli.html

It's rumored he's coming back this season in prep. for a run at the Oly 5 and maybe 100. I think he may have 'lost it' so to speak, but if he can come back, it would add a great dimension to the races.
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby tafnut » Sat May 31, 2003 6:13 pm

I win: Bob Hayes in the 4x1 Final. There was never more sheer power generated by a man.
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby Guest » Sat May 31, 2003 6:38 pm

If you're going to try and dump Bob Hayes into this, I guess I can top him by dropping in Tom Dempsey. Since speed isn't necessarily indicative of more power, eh?
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby tafnut » Sun Jun 01, 2003 8:09 am

How did you construe that I had taken this off the track (pun)? Hayes got the baton and accelerated at the end of his race (i.e., kicked). No one said how long the race was.
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby Guest » Sun Jun 01, 2003 10:17 am

Obviously tafnut isn't a football fan and doesn't remember square-toed Tom Dempsey's record-setting field goal back inthe early '70s ("who kicked the hardest?" get it?)
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby tafnut » Sun Jun 01, 2003 10:32 am

Of course I got it - that's why I asked why we had taken it off the "track". YOU didn't get it.
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby Guest » Mon Jun 02, 2003 2:31 pm

>How did you construe that I had taken this off
>the track (pun)? Hayes got the baton and
>accelerated at the end of his race (i.e.,
>kicked). No one said how long the race was.

Hayes accelerated at the end of his race? Uh, no.
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby tafnut » Mon Jun 02, 2003 3:59 pm

Now we're really getting pedantic - a kick is at least 100 meters (otherwise it's a finishing 'burst'), so Hayes accelerated in his kick. I was being tongue in cheek to begin with, but if ya wanna fight, I can keep this up for a long time - I'm a teacher on summer break.
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby Guest » Mon Jun 02, 2003 4:04 pm

>Now we're really getting pedantic - a kick is at
>least 100 meters (otherwise it's a finishing
>'burst'), so Hayes accelerated in his kick. I was
>being tongue in cheek to begin with, but if ya
>wanna fight, I can keep this up for a long time -
>I'm a teacher on summer break.

I think we need you to cite the source that states unequivocally that a kick is at least 100 meters.
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby tafnut » Mon Jun 02, 2003 4:19 pm

Why, that's easy enough - I said so. Did you not see my name: tafnut, i.e., track and field nut, i.e., lunatic, i.e., delusional. QED.
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby Guest » Mon Jun 02, 2003 5:07 pm

Someone should start a thread on this great new defining craze.

A Kick now has to be at least 100 metres
anything less is a 'burst', what if its further than 200 metres is that a 'drive', and less than 30 a 'lunge'

Lets not get carried away with defining things
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby tafnut » Mon Jun 02, 2003 5:52 pm

Since it was tongue in cheek to begin with, isn't that the point?
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby Guest » Mon Jun 02, 2003 5:54 pm

What point?
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby Guest » Mon Jun 02, 2003 7:46 pm

Does this mean I have to alter my racing and training diary? Change "kick" to burst, burst to "drive", etc? Man, this is going to be a lot of work.

Peter Snell did have a very fast finishing burst. Er, kick. Well, drive! Hey, he had a fast finish. So did Ryun and Morceli.
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Re: Who kicked the hardest?

Postby Guest » Tue Jun 03, 2003 4:58 pm

Rev, if you want to see Ryun coast to a WR, go to this link. http://www.ryunrunning.com/video/Mile03.mov

The above posts are correct. He pretty much thought he was just bringing it in at a good clip to make sure he had the race won. With a crusing 53 + that night on the last lap, I wonder what he could have run that night with rabbits, etc., on dirt.
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