What's wrong with track and field!


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What's wrong with track and field!

Postby Brutal » Tue May 20, 2003 7:36 am

How many of you would want to watch a lady softball game or a lady basketball game prior to the real deal that being a major league game or an NBA game, I wouldn't!

I don't really care to watch 10.95 100's prior to 9.95 100's in other words I'm not a fan of female track but as ya know we are stuck with it. I would love to just watch the best out there which the women are not. There are a ton of high school boys who would smoke Marion Jones.

Give the ladies their own meet.
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby trackstar » Tue May 20, 2003 7:51 am

Gawd, this message doesn't even merit a reply, but I know it will get 10 million. Oh well, let me be the first: This is the single stupidest post I have yet seen on this board. I'll stick my neck out and guess that the overwhelming majority of us love women's track. (I love women's basketball and other women's sports, as well.) If you don't like the women's events, go to the concession stand and get yourself some nachos. I'm not gonna let anyone deprive me of the chance to watch all the magnificent ladies out there, especially my Lady Longhorns at the U. of Texas.
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby Guest » Tue May 20, 2003 8:08 am

I think it actually ties for first place as the most stupid post. Equal with "Bad things and good things" on the other board, which I actually printed out to reply to, but decided not to waste my time.
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby Guest » Tue May 20, 2003 8:09 am

sounds like some one is unhappy with annika...

sure there are tons hs who can beat marion now...

she's pregnant...

but there's less than 1% of hs 100 meter runners who could really beat her...

the real story is about the competition, the struggle to excel, and gender plays no part in it...

surely Radcliffe's 2:15 speaks for itself...

how many american men approach than standard..

a dozen??

oh well...the world is filled with all sorts
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby jsquire » Tue May 20, 2003 8:38 am

If times make a meet more exciting than the competition, the California high school championships wouldn't sell out every year. Likewise, the NCAA would also be a "substandard" meet.

I do agree that meets are too long, but that has as much to do with poor management as men & women together. The Ohio high school finals, boys and girls together, are done in about 2 hours and 15 minutes, the perfect amount of time for a sporting event.
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby OldMan by the Sea » Tue May 20, 2003 8:40 am

Another flame..its always about blacks,women,gays with Brutal..a total flame...just do us a favor...ban him now
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby tafnut » Tue May 20, 2003 9:08 am

Wild guess - Brutal and OldMan are one and the same. If not, they should be - same sort of input.
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby Guest » Tue May 20, 2003 1:40 pm

Gee, this isn't exactly what I had in mind when I made a plea for more women's material awhile back!
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby runtoo » Tue May 20, 2003 3:42 pm

LOL @ Julie.

Brutal you can't be serious. It's not about the times, it's about the compitetion. I find the most boring races are what I would call runaways, where one person, male or female, just smokes the field.
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby Guest » Tue May 20, 2003 3:49 pm

Julie...at least you can see the rest of us aren't misogynists and stood up for the ladies!
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby Guest » Tue May 20, 2003 3:57 pm

Anyone here old enough to remember how boring track meets were when it was only us guys out there? We even bored ourselves. No one who was a competitor, coach or spectator would want to return to the bad old days of all-male track and field. Ugh! BRUTAL really is brutally stupid.
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby Guest » Tue May 20, 2003 4:07 pm

The CA HS champs sell out every year because the parents of the kids show up. Add the fans and parents together, not enough seats. But set up a big invitational, international stars, now you're talking problems in filling the stands. People have been driven away by bad presentation, lack of participation, and 'stars' that most people can't relate to - read 'arrogant' sprinters that have no conception of how poorly their act plays in Peoria, no matter how much the media plays it up. There is a lot more for potential competitors - the kids - to do these days. Look at Britain. The numbers of kids getting into the sport were dropping off by the mid 80's, despite the hey day of Coe, Ovett, Cram and Elliot. What did they have for the national jr. XC champs this year in GB, less than 100 runners? It used to be close to 1,000 up until around 1980 or so. The stands in Europe don't fill like they once did. Time to stop warbling about what's wrong, and make suggestions so that we are talking about what could be right with our favorite sport.
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby Guest » Tue May 20, 2003 5:59 pm

Brutal's remarks aren't necessarily stupid. Noone has offered an explanation why all the most popular sports are male only. Also, his critics contradict themselves when they say it's about competition and then cite women, like Radcliffe, who dominate in runaways. High performance is important.
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby Guest » Tue May 20, 2003 9:07 pm

Sorry, Brutal's remarks ARE stupid. Competitive track meets (at all levels) with both genders ADD to the fan base and encourage youth interest in the sport. I agree that there are a world of ways to improve the public presentation of running sports and field events,and more innovation is desparately needed. But retreating to the stone ages of gender separation is counter productive.

One example was staged here in Santa Barbara, CA, until our national economic woes caused the event to run out of sponsorship funds. World class through high school vaulters of both sexes competed on run-ways and pits built over the beach sand in a two day event. It put enthusiastic crowds into up close/personal contact with athletes and generated great interest from track buffs, local kids and casual beach tourists. It was a lot more fun than an old male only track meet. And the star of the show was a certain Ms. Dragila.

I say that what is wrong with track and field has a lot more to do with cranky throw-backs like Brutal than with female competitors!
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby jsquire » Wed May 21, 2003 4:53 am

>Noone has offered an explanation why all the
>most popular sports are male only.

Well, since you asked . . . it's still a sexist society in America, even though it's less so than in the past. Outside our borders it's usually worse, too. Women do a disproportionate amount of domestic work (I will supply documentation upon request) which leaves them with a lot less time to sit on the couch, drink beer, and watch sports.

Sports history reveals that antifeminists who argued that women should not participate in sports were largely concerned with gender roles and the power balance involved in them. One aspect of athletics is learning to compete in a competitive capitalist society, and the white males of yesteryear did not want women (or African-Americans) to learn those lessons (and many still don't want them to now).

I wouldn't necissarily say that ALL the most popular sports are male-only. Horse racing and auto racing are pretty popular, and they are overwhelmingly but not exclusively male (and that's usually a product of access rather than ability). You could argue that women's tennis is more popular right now than men's tennis.

And what's the headline on everyone's sports section this morning?
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby Guest » Wed May 21, 2003 5:25 am

Title IX has gone a long way to provide athletic opportunity to many women.

And to a huge degree expains female proficiency in sports like basketball and soccer, and track and field.

There are huge cultural circumstances regarding women in sports, not just in the states, but on the rest of the planet.

female roles are gradually changing...

in the days if Kip Keino, I don't recollect Kenya women on the world stage...

and in the days of Bikila, Ethiopian women, similarly were absent...

But now, they are here. There was some fundamental transition from EXCLUSION to INCLUSION.

Culturally mores graducally shift, some times in a more positive inclusive fashion, sometimes not, but generally towards greater inclusion.

And with this greater competition emerges, with greater depth of competition.

To me, this is good, and more entertaining.

I prefer several gifted folk battling to win, over a single dominating performance.

That's my taste. Others may differ.
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby Brutal » Wed May 21, 2003 6:00 am

Not too keen on being called stupid or being accused of "flaming." I simply prefer to watch the men perform in track and field is that really all that big a deal to the point of labeling me as well anything to be honest?

I dig them old blues and think rap sucks does that make me stupid?

We each have our own likes and dislikes there aren't any right or wrong answers there it's all in the eye of the beholder. I just don't care to sit thru inferior performances. I'm not knocking the women they just don't interest me athlectically.

Please believe me when I tell ya if track and field is the topic I can more than hold my own with anyone........trust me!
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby jsquire » Wed May 21, 2003 6:32 am

>Not too keen on being called stupid or being
>accused of "flaming." I simply prefer to watch
>the men perform in track and field is that really
>all that big a deal to the point of labeling me
>as well anything to be honest?

What inflames the ire is not your preference for the men's side of the sport but the implication many read that you think women should stay home barefoot and pregnant and girls should look pretty and not be too smart. If you don't like women's track, fine -- I don't like sauerkraut. But I don't denigrate the people who make it.

Please believe me
>when I tell ya if track and field is the topic I
>can more than hold my own with
>anyone........trust me!

Do you honestly believe you're the only one here that can do so?
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby Guest » Wed May 21, 2003 7:17 am

Please believe me
>when I tell ya if track and field is the topic I
>can more than hold my own with
>anyone........trust me!


Oh, please enlighten and inform us all, great Brutal!
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby Guest » Wed May 21, 2003 7:20 am

OK, Brutal, I will offer a limited apology! I am sorry that I made a personal attack. Actually, I didn't say YOU were stupid, I said your statements were stupid. We all (me included) certainly have made our fair share of dumb statements. And I am sure you can hold your own in terms of track knowledge. Probably no one ventures here to this website without a pretty keen interest in the sport.

But your original message was obviously intended to send sparks flying. And calling yourself Brutal sort of speaks for itself. To complain now about how people regard you seems a bit whiney and Oprah-ish (Be a man, Brutal!)

Also, I disagree with your attitude that "there aren't any right or wrong answers". You can certainly have preferences. I like blues way better than rap, too. But for the health of running sports, it IS a wrong answer to separate competitions by gender.
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby Brutal » Wed May 21, 2003 7:57 am

jsquire

Women can do anything they want just don't expect me to get excited over 11.00 100's. That's really all this is about.

Where do I say anything about barefoot and pregeant or not very smart? Try nowhere!

As far as track knowledge ....mmmmm?

Who were those seven guys that outran Bob Hayes in his entire sprint career anyway.......hahaha!!!
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby Brutal » Wed May 21, 2003 8:05 am

jhc68

When high schoolers can out perform world class athlete's something is wrong.

The Texas high school boys championships will see a meet totally superior to the womens nationals.

I just don't get stoked over 22 foot long jumps.
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby Guest » Wed May 21, 2003 8:15 am

the metric brutal prefers is the stopwatch...

but what about the metric of competing athletes where the metric is thr photo finish......

isn't it the competition which counts??

so MJ's 19.32 has a certain appeal ...

as does Radcliffe's 2:15.....

but ultimately it's the tension of competition which interests me...

and this tension is beyond gender...

it's the appeal of the struggle to achieve...

not the accounants metric of number.
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby Brutal » Wed May 21, 2003 8:24 am

I don't know about you but I've have seen hundreds of track meets. At this stage of the game I'm into great performances.

I don't like having to wait thru 11.00's.
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby Guest » Wed May 21, 2003 9:27 am

See, Brutal, you've gotten old and jaded and distanced from the personal element of the sport. If 22 foot long jumps don't thrill you, then what does, exactly? 25 footers or does it need to be in the 28 foot range? On that basis, the Texas school boy meets should be of as little interest to you as the women's events you disdain. Soon you won't want to be bothered by anything except men's WR performances and, then, you will be in the same category of selective fan as people who only watch those irritating Olympic highlights that the TV networks try to pretend is event coverage every four years.

Here's a suggestion for you, if you are not too old and cranky and hidebound: Go volunteer next year to walk on and help coach at a local high school. Coach girls, even! Become involved with people instead of being an elitist track snob. If you do, and you share the work and learning and emotions of competition out on the field again (I assume you were once a competitor), you will be amazed at how exciting a 30 foot triple jump can be. And one of those dreary 11 second 100's will blow you mind. Try it. You will like it and it will make you a better person, too.
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby el-supremo » Wed May 21, 2003 9:29 am

1991 World Championships

1500m 3:32 won, with 3:35 winning bronze

5000m 13:14 won, with 13:22 winning bronze

10000m 27:38 won - great performances???

Brutal either wants to get a rise out of everyone or is not as knowledgable as he por. Everyone who follows T&F knows the great times of today will only be average years later - so those looking for "great performances" via fast times are kidding themselves. The above performances were awesome - as was Billy Mills/Bob Schul winning in 1964, albeit in times already surpased by collegians this season (and most seasons, now).

Will Brutal look back in 20 years and still think he saw a great performance in seeing a 9.90 100m when the record is 9.55?

Guess you no longer enjoy the 200m or 400m since MJ put those records "out there". Hope Toth doesn't ruin the SP for you this year.

Adios!!
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby jsquire » Wed May 21, 2003 9:31 am

>jsquire

Women can do anything they want just
>don't expect me to get excited over 11.00 100's.
>That's really all this is about.

Then why title the thread "What's wrong with track and field!"? It's hard to imagine that you meant anything but that women are the problem.

Where do I
>say anything about barefoot and pregeant or not
>very smart? Try nowhere!

I never said you did. If you actually read my remarks said "the implication many read" -- the anger comes not from you, but from a reaction to your statements.

As far as track
>knowledge ....mmmmm?

Knowing factoids does not by itself make one educated. However, I can answer the 100 meters. Harry Jerome (disputed) and Roger Sayers, both in 1962. I'm apparently not old enough to have been around when anyone beat Hayes in any other events.

Here's some trivia for anyone to jump on:

Name the athletes that beat Paavo Nurmi in the 10,000 meters.

Name the athletes that beat Hal Davis.

Name the athletes that beat Jesse Owens in the sprints -- and how many times each beat him.

Name the reason why George Simpson's 9.4 over 100 yards was rejected as a world record.

Name the two athletes with the most career CCC wins.
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby Brutal » Wed May 21, 2003 9:37 am

jhc68

Not looking to get all warm and fuzzy here I'm looking to see some great races ran by the world's best....geesh!
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby Brutal » Wed May 21, 2003 9:40 am

el-supremo

I'm referring to the best in the world at that particular time.
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby Brutal » Wed May 21, 2003 9:47 am

mmmmm???

I know Metcalfe and Peacock beat Owens a few times not sure how many.

Payton Jordan and Barney Ewell beat Davis.

Simpson used starting blocks wasn't it?

Not into distances all that much.

Here are the seven that beat Hayes.....

Jerome
Sayers
Darel Newman....60 only white guy to ever beat Hayes
Alfred Austin in hs
Jimmy "Peach Head" Gordon in hs
Henry Carr...200
Homer Jones...200 (first NFLer to score a td on MNF)

I'm strickly a "speed" freak...hahaha!
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby el-supremo » Wed May 21, 2003 9:50 am

Vijay (er - Brutal), is this what you meant by taking a week off?
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby Brutal » Wed May 21, 2003 9:55 am

Sorry bro I'm not who ever that is......trust me!
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby Guest » Wed May 21, 2003 9:55 am

Geeesh, yourself, Brutal. You can be a wanky old fart if you prefer it. I'm merely offering you a way out of your stated dilemma, which is that you no longer enjoy the sport you know so much about. Coaching keeps even hard-asses and old-timers rejuvenated and appreciative of all levels of track and field. Lots of people who visit this website can attest to that.
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby Brutal » Wed May 21, 2003 10:02 am

jhc68

I'm as jacked/stoked today as I was in 1914 when Howard Drew tied the WR in the 100 with his 9.6 becoming the first black American to hold a sprint WR. I remember it as if it were yesterday. Be old and senile ya understand, where are my teeth anyway....hahahahaha!!! Man I could go for a warm glass of milk....hahahahaha!!!

It's hell being an old fart....hahahahaha!!!

How old am I anyway slick?
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby Guest » Wed May 21, 2003 10:02 am

I guess brutal didn't "enjoy" mary slaney in helsinki in 1983....

her times just weren't up to the male standard of 20 years ago...
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby trackstar » Wed May 21, 2003 10:04 am

>jhc68
>The Texas high school boys championships will
>see a meet totally superior to the womens
>nationals.

There is no such thing as "the Texas high school boys championships." There is only the Texas high school championships, period. And as someone who watches and covers that meet every year, let me say that my interest would be severely diminished if we followed your stupid segregation suggestion. Like I said, if you can't appreciate female track, then go get some popcorn and come back before the next event. Don't ruin it for the rest of us.

Highlight number one for me at this year's Texas state meet: watching Michelle Carter twice break the national record in the shot.

Highlight number two (and directly addressing your complaint about supposedly inferior women's performances): The boys and girls class 2A triple jumps were held in side-by-side pits. JimAnne Baker, one of the better female athletes in Texas history, bounded down the runway for a jump of 40 feet, 5 inches. Not five seconds later, a boy bounded down his runway and hit a mark of ... 40 feet, 5 inches. That was cool.
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby Brutal » Wed May 21, 2003 10:04 am

Totally missing the point.......geesh!
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby jsquire » Wed May 21, 2003 10:05 am

>I know Metcalfe and Peacock beat Owens a few times not sure how many.

Owens lost to Matcalfe three times, Eulace Peacock beat him four times, and James Johnson got him twice.

>Payton Jordan and Barney Ewell beat Davis.

You missed Mozell Ellerbe and Mickey Anderson.

>Simpson used starting blocks wasn't it?

Right on!

There are two questions still open . . . or did your boast of "track knowledge" really mean "sprints only"?
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby Brutal » Wed May 21, 2003 10:09 am

trackstar

I assumed it was obvious I was referring to the boys "section" of the meet. Obviously there are segregated state meets.

Do whatever you like I'm merely stating "my" opinion. If it's cool with you, go for it! I prefer to pass on it.

Is that ok with you?
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Re: What's wrong with track and field!

Postby Brutal » Wed May 21, 2003 10:22 am

jsquire

Big in the sprints/hurdles and long jump. The rest I can hang to some degree.

Here are a few for you....

Gramblings two Olympic sprinters?

Last "white" sprinter to run on the USA 4x1 team?

Name all the Olympic sprinters from San Jose State?

Haiti's WR holder?

Who held American records in the 50,100 200,400,800 and mile?

WR sprinter from U of New Mexico?

Name histories seven 9.1 sprinters?
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