International comparisons - Junior female distance runners


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International comparisons - Junior female distance runners

Postby Jon » Tue May 02, 2006 8:36 am

There has been a lot of talk on here about Jordan Hasay and I do my bit to hype Emily Pidgeon, but there are several other younguns out there who are just as talented. They have all ran fast times at an early age, but who do you feel has that extra something to take them all the way to senior success? Here are the candidates (in age order):

Image
Ancuta Bobocel Image
Born: 3rd October, 1987
Height: 1.63m (5'4")
Weight: 52kg (115lb)
Honours: 2005 EJXCh gold, 2005 EJCh 3kSC silver, 2004 WJCh 3kSC silver, 2003 EJCh 2kSC silver


1500m
2006 - (4:23.15i)

3000m
2006 - 9:19.98 (9:31:91i)

2000m SC
2003 - 6:32.03
2005 - 6:25.54

3000m SC
2004 - 9:49.03 AJR
2005 - 9:57.12
2006 - 9:51.13


Image
Yuriko Kobayashi Image
Born: 12th December, 1988
Height: 1.60m (5'3")
Weight: 44kg (97lb)
Honours: 2005 WYCh 1500m silver


800m
2004 - 2:07.56
2005 - 2:06.96
2006 - 2:05.78

1500m
2004 - 4:18.35
2005 - 4:12.85
2005 - 4:07.87

3000m
2003 - 9:38.45
2005 - 8:52.33
2005 - 9:02.79

5000m
2006 - 15:31.90


Image
Emily Pidgeon Image
Born: 1st June, 1989
Height: ?
Weight: ?
Honours: 2005 EJCh 5000m gold, 2005 EJXCh silver


800m
2001 - 2:27.2
2002 - 2:17.96
2003 - 2:13.70
2004 - 2:12.4
2005 - 2:11.1

1500m
2001 - 4:54.51
2002 - 4:32.58 (4:49.06i)
2003 - 4:27.70 (4:40.58i)
2004 - 4:24.9 (4:32.67i)
2005 - 4:17.83
2006 - (4:27.20i)

Mile
2002 - 5:05.6
2003 - 4:57.7
2004 - 4:50.68

3000m
2001 - (9:55.71i)
2002 - 9:44.39
2003 - 9:28.74
2004 - 9:23.77 (9:34.66i)
2005 - 9:17.9 (9:19.51i)
2006 - 9:06.87

5000m
2004 - 16:24.28
2005 - 16:04.46
2006 - 15:41.00

10km
2005 - 34:28
2006 - 33:56

2000mSC
2004 - 7:22.8
2005 - 6:43.13A
2006 - 6:37.76A

3000mSC
2005 - 10:06.12


Image
Daniela Fetcere Image
Born: 18th August, 1990
Height: ?
Weight: ?
Honours: 2005 WYCh 3000m 6th


1500m
2004 - 4:25.49
2005 - 4:21.86 (4:25.62i)
2006 - 4:21.01 (4:24.68i)

3000m
2005 - 9:10.7
2006 - 9:13.58 (9:15.20i)

5000m
2006 - 16:12.51


Image
Jordan Hasay Image
Born: 12th September, 1991
Height: ?
Weight: ?
Honours: ?


1500m
2005 - 4:28.61
2006 - 4:25.08 (4:23.65c)

Mile
2006 - 4:42.21

3000m
2004 - 9:48.77
2005 - 9:35.12
2006 - 9:26.32


(Any amendments welcome)
Last edited by Jon on Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:20 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Postby EPelle » Tue May 02, 2006 8:58 am

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more Hasay times

Postby richxx87 » Tue May 02, 2006 9:35 am

Here are some recent times by Jordan Hasay -- but it seems she PRs every weekend so these will be out of date in a couple of weeks.

2006

1600 -- 4:43.09

Mile --- 4:45.00

3200 -- 10:07.56

Someone else can do the conversions. These are just the bizarre distances kids run in California (and some other US) high school competitions.
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Postby player » Tue May 02, 2006 10:48 am

Hasay has also run 4:25.08 for 1500m and 9:26.32 for 3000m in 2006.

I had the opportunity to witness the 4:43.09 1600 this weekend. One thing that struck me as Hasay was lining up (and is also evident in the stride-for-stride photo in the other thread) is that her legs are very long in relation to her torso. That's a plus. Special things happen when a top-flight aerobic system is placed in a gazelle frame.

Other salient point from the linked article is that Hasay's mother was an Olympic-level swimmer for England. I think the Brits would be well advised to adopt Hasay as one of their own, so as to hedge their bets in the event of future showdowns with the Pidge.
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Re: more Hasay times

Postby mike renfro » Tue May 02, 2006 11:10 am

richxx87 wrote:Someone else can do the conversions. These are just the bizarre distances kids run in California (and some other US) high school competitions.


It isn't just CA. The natl HS federation went metric, and invented 2 events not contested elsewhere. On the face, not illogical, 4 laps, 8 laps of 400m track. Would have worked well at the turn of the century. The 20th century. T&FN has a conversion value to add to 16 & 32, but I am too lazy to go upstairs and dig it out. :(
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Re: more Hasay times

Postby 26mi235 » Tue May 02, 2006 11:11 am

richxx87 wrote:Here are some recent times by Jordan Hasay -- but it seems she PRs every weekend so these will be out of date in a couple of weeks.

2006

1600 -- 4:43.09

Mile --- 4:45.00

3200 -- 10:07.56

Someone else can do the conversions. These are just the bizarre distances kids run in California (and some other US) high school competitions.


We have only seen her once at any sort of major peak in HS and she ran away in the Footlocker National XC (HS) Championship. the 4:43 and 9:26 are unlikely to be her seasonal bests, especially since the 4:43 was part of a double that finished in 5:01(1600) after a 5:19.9 (first 1600).
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Re: more Hasay times

Postby Daisy » Tue May 02, 2006 11:23 am

mike renfro wrote:On the face, not illogical, 4 laps, 8 laps of 400m track. Would have worked well at the turn of the century. The 20th century.

True, but surely just keeping the old mile and two mile races would have been much more logical.
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Postby gh » Tue May 02, 2006 11:39 am

If you're not a true track person (and very few at the HS level are), what seems illogical is to have a race that starts 10m (or 20m) before the finish line, then does an even number of laps. It would also make little sense to those people to run all but two races in meters. Either you switch or you don't.
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Postby 26mi235 » Tue May 02, 2006 12:19 pm

gh wrote:If you're not a true track person (and very few at the HS level are), what seems illogical is to have a race that starts 10m (or 20m) before the finish line, then does an even number of laps. It would also make little sense to those people to run all but two races in meters. Either you switch or you don't.


I have no problem with the 1600; physically is makes more sense than running a mile on a 400m track and it is so close in distance to a mile that the 1.4-2.0 seconds is very easy to take into account as the incremental slowing does not have time to accumulate. I wonder if the standard was 1600 and not the mile, would we have a conversion factor of 7.5% (rather than the implicit 7.37% that the 8% for the mile yields)?
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Postby Daisy » Tue May 02, 2006 12:50 pm

gh wrote:Either you switch or you don't.

Well they did and they didn't, metric but not 1500m. Worst of both worlds in my opinion.
Last edited by Daisy on Tue May 02, 2006 1:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby 26mi235 » Tue May 02, 2006 1:09 pm

Daisy wrote:
gh wrote:Either you switch or you don't.

Well they did and the didn't, metric but not 1500. Worst of both worlds in my opinion.


The 1500 is an odd bird, it is the only race with laps that does not begin on the lap or the half lap. With an (usually indoor) 200m track, it is the only one that does not begin at the finish line. It is run in a country where people understand miles and quarters and distances that are almost those; For someone thinking miles, I think that it is easier to compare the 1600 than the 1500. I think that it is irrefutable that it is easier logistically for lap times etc. Besides, most of the distances are a double as you move up, but the 1500 is less than a double and the 5000 becomes much more than a double, so moving to 1600 is not bad on that score either.
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Postby EPelle » Tue May 02, 2006 1:14 pm

26:er -- same with some steeplechase races, depending on the track:s straight-away.
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Postby Daisy » Tue May 02, 2006 1:15 pm

26mi235 wrote:The 1500 is an odd bird.

This is very true, I'm sure there is an interesting history as to why they chose that distance (we're moving into new thread territory here).

Considering the mile was so well established when metrification kicked in, i agree that the 1600 would have been preferable to the 1500m. Given the 1500m race was chosen by the international community, however, it made no sense for the HS's to go their own way despite it being more user friendly.
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Postby 26mi235 » Tue May 02, 2006 1:35 pm

EPelle wrote:26:er -- same with some steeplechase races, depending on the track:s straight-away.


And HS steeples are almost as rare as hen's teeth.. I am not really arguing that is a great choice, but I do think that it was not an unnatural choice (and Daisy, HS does not pay too much attention to the world stage because it is not closely connected by any institutions).
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Postby Daisy » Tue May 02, 2006 1:52 pm

I'm starting a new thread for "Why 1600m in high school?", so this good thread does not get hijacked.
Last edited by Daisy on Tue May 02, 2006 2:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby gh » Tue May 02, 2006 1:57 pm

I'm sure there are plenty (like a Gabe-ish number!) of previous 1600 threads from wish to choose.
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Postby Daisy » Tue May 02, 2006 2:06 pm

gh wrote:I'm sure there are plenty (like a Gabe-ish number!) of previous 1600 threads from wish to choose.
I'll check. It will be embarrassing when I find I was involved in one of them.
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Postby BCBaroo » Tue May 02, 2006 2:54 pm

Jon, great post...sorry it's devolved into the same old whine about hs 1600's. As an American, I'm clearly rooting for Hasay... I hope to be watching her go for Gold in 2012...maybe against the others you've hilighted. And when I say I hope to be watching...I mean, I hope I'm still alive!
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Postby Master Po » Tue May 02, 2006 7:45 pm

Thanks, Jon. This is interesting to think about, especially for wondering about development programs in different countries. Japan for instance -- I was interested in Kobayashi. I don't know anything about the Japanese development program for junior runners, but I would guess that it's focused not on the events she is running, but is focused long term, and long distance -- ie, they are very good at developing marathoners, and have little presence internationally at other distance events that are part of the OG/WC program. They have produced, from the 1990s til now, a great record of consistently getting women on the medal stand in the marathon at WC & OG, and have depth, too -- often have 2-3 in the top 10. I also looked up the depth of their performances on pela2's all-time lists. In the top 200 women marathon performances (down to low 2:25), Japan has 39 -- almost 20%. At 10,000m, they have 16 of the top 200 all-time performances. However, at 5,000m, 1500m, and 800m, they have no performances in the top 200 all-time. So, I wonder if Kobayashi is being developed in the way that many Japanese women distance runners have developed -- toward being a marathoner, or if she's something different in their system.

I would not be surprised to see her on the marathon starting line for Japan in a few years, whereas the Romanian girl seems to be a Steepler in the making. I'm less sure about Pidgeon's or Hasay's, or Fetcere's "destiny" (I mean the events they are most likely to end up excelling in). We might see all these in senior competition, in different events.

It makes sense for us to compare their times, and look at their ages -- that's about all the data we have anyway -- but the athletics culture each is in will shape each in other ways, even if everything goes well. That's what I'm suggesting with the speculations about Kobayashi. Even though she seems to have middle distance tendencies at this point, her athletics culture has such a great record of creating marathoners, and almost no record of creating great middle distance runners, that I would expect to see her in the marathon, even if she is running 2:05 800m now.

By the way -- on the flags -- is Fetcere Latvian?
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Postby Swoosher » Tue May 02, 2006 11:58 pm

An Aussie prospect for international comparison

Emily Brichacek 1990

2005:

1500: 4:19:89
3000: 9:08:93

2006 -

No times yet (injury I think....)
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Postby EPelle » Wed May 03, 2006 12:13 am

Swoosher wrote:An Aussie prospect for international comparison...Emily Brichacek 1990

http://www.iaaf.org/news/Kind=131072/newsId=32470.html

Newspaper reporton that NJR:

"But even more impressive than the record time was the fact she had to do it all on her own, running out in front of a women's only field, under lights and on a wet track.

The nearest female competitor was nearly a minute back in second place."


Swoosher wrote:2006 - No times yet (injury I think....)

ACT Club Competition
Results - 17 January 2006

    400m: Emily Brichacek WC 1.01,90 Under 18
    Mile: Emily Brichacek WC 4.44,85 Under 18
ACT Club Competition
Results - 7 February 2006

    3.000m: Emily Brichacek WC 9.26,54 Under 18
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Postby Jon » Wed May 03, 2006 12:58 am

Swoosher wrote:An Aussie prospect for international comparison

Emily Brichacek
Very nearly put her in, but could only find very basic info about her (i.e. a couple of her SBs/PBs).
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Re: International comparisons - Junior female distance runne

Postby Daisy » Wed May 03, 2006 10:27 am

Jon wrote:Image
Emily Pidgeon Image
3000m
2001 - (9:55.71i)
2002 - 9:44.39
2003 - 9:28.74
2004 - 9:23.77 (9:34.66i)
2005 - 9:17.9 (9:19.51i)
2006 - 9:11.57

For footage of Emily Pidgeon's 9:11.57, see the following web site:
http://www.sportuk.tv/pages/athletics/index.html

See the second race of part 1 of the 3,000m video
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Postby La_Spigola_Loca » Wed May 03, 2006 11:01 am

^Thanks for the video.
Her splits were, approximately, as follows:
36.5
76.5
73
74.5
73.5
73.5
74
70

Approximate km splits: 3:05.5, 3:05, 3:01. I think that her pace maker was realizing after 600m he was going too slow, so he put in a quicker lap. She probably lost 2 seconds there. But it's very well possible she'd have followed a pace-maker (or run alone) to a faster time- her time was pretty much predetermined.
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PRC Phenomettes

Postby Quick Silver » Wed May 03, 2006 3:26 pm

We can assume China will have a few prospects at about this level on display at the world juniors in Beijing this summer. And a few more in reserve.

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Junior Prospects

Postby AS » Wed May 03, 2006 3:42 pm

Four other Aussie prospects:
Lucy Starrat (d.o.b. 4 Feb 1990)
2004:
1500m: 4.32.67
3000m: 9.44.38
2005:
1500m: 4.28.90
3000m: 9.34.92
2006:
1500m: 4.29.11
3000m: 9.25.58

Madeline Heiner (d.o.b. 15 Jun 1988)
Image
2002:
800m: 2.12.10
1500m: 4.33.79
2003:
800m: 2.10.67
1500m: 4.30.04
2004:
800m: 2.11.61
1500m: 4.24.54
3000m: 9.25.11
2005:
1500m: 4.18.37
3000m: 9.29.35
2006:
1500m 4.18.76
Mile: 4.41.89
3000m: 9.38.97
3000m St: 9.56.54

Katherine Katsanevakis (d.o.b. 6 Nov 1988)
Image
2003:
800m 2.10.55
2004:
400m 55.48
800m 2.07.28 (& 2.06.9 in mixed race)
1500m 4.29.55
2005:
400m 55.52
800m 2.04.72 (and won open national championship)
1500m 4.29.55
2006:
800m 2.04.37

Sianne Toemoe (d.o.b. 17 June 1989)
2003:
800m 2.10.37
2004:
400m 56.54
800m 2.07.05
2005:
800m 2.05.45
2006:
800m 2.07.15
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Postby player » Thu May 04, 2006 10:51 am

Greatly appreciate the Pidgeon video but surprised to see male pacemakers in a women's track race. I wasn't aware that the practice was allowed in any sanctioned track competition. The vice of that practice is that the superior runner never has to take the pace for herself. In men's competition, the rule against pacemakers jumping into the middle of the race means that the superior runner will have to make his own pace at some point.
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Yuriko Kobayashi UPDATE

Postby richxx87 » Sat May 06, 2006 1:05 am

Official Result Women - 1500 Metres
Pos Athlete Nat Mark Pts
1 Jamieson Sarah AUS 4:03.51 10
2 Kobayashi Yuriko JPN 4:07.87 8
3 Yoshikawa Mika JPN 4:14.05 7
4 Sigmont Erica AUS 4:16.11 6
5 Kuwashiro Nanae JPN 4:17.75 5
6 Shadle Anne USA 4:22.65 4
7 Miyazaki Chise JPN 4:25.00 3
8 Nishimura Miki JPN 4:27.50 2


It appears that the Japanese gal in the original post has run a big 5-second PB at today's Osaka meet. If, in fact, it is the same gal, as Yuriko and Kobayashi are both quite common names in Japan. Yuriko means "Snow Child" and most girls born when it's snowing get that tag.

She looks to be the early favorite for Beijing World Juniors in August. Another Japanese Junior that could make some noise could be the 400 kid who got a PB at 45.41 at the same meet.
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Postby Jon » Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:28 am

Updated with latest PBs/SBs.

As an aside, Daniela Fetcere came up against Pidgeon's training partner Sarah Hopkinson in the 1500m at the ISF World Gymnasiade last week in Thessalonica, Greece. It was a field of 21 athletes in 37 deg cels temperature. The first lap was slow, but things started to pick up after then. Going into the last lap, Britain's Emma Pallant was leading and Hopkinson was in fifth position. With 300m to go, Hopkinson had moved up behind Fetcere, who was in second. At 200m, Hopkinson drew level with Pallant and then kicked for home, opening up a two-second lead by the time she crossed the finish line in first place.

Her coach said that he expected the time to be around 4:35, given the way the race played out, so was very surprised when he saw the clock at 4:23 - just one second away from her PB.

Oh, and Hopkinson (at age 14) was the youngest in the field.
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Postby EPelle » Sun Aug 20, 2006 5:28 am

Hasay update:

My training routine includes about 60 miles per week including a tempo run, a long run, hill repeats, and easy running. We're introducing some new runs and methods this year such as a 10 mile run once a week, and wearing a heart rate monitor for my tempo runs. I'm still swimming also. I like to swim one to three miles a day five days a week. Then twice a week I take easy bicycle rides of 7 miles. Finally I weight train with my dad twice a week. Coach Mando has some good plans for me this season. Right now I'm just focusing on adapting to the mileage and staying heathly.

Source: SBAA
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Postby richxx87 » Sun Aug 20, 2006 6:02 am

Wow that seems like a lot of running mileage for young Jordan. And then add in the almost 15 mi/wk swimming and the bike, good gracious. I guess that's what needs to be done to make a champion and challenge the African juggernaut.

BTW,,, in relation to the young stars in the first part of this thread, Bobocel got silver in the steeple at WJC, Yuriko-chan got Bronze in the WJC1500, Pidgeon was a no-show, Daniela Fetcere did not appear in any start lists I could find and Hasay was deemed too young by the IAAF regulations.

Kenya completely dominated the distance medals (for gals and guys) and "won the meet" in terms of overall medals.
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Chinese distance runners

Postby Quick Silver » Sun Aug 20, 2006 8:13 pm

Kenya completely dominated the distance medals


Well, they certainly didn't dominate the walks. And, indeed, my prediction about China back in May was amply fulfilled.

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Postby La_Spigola_Loca » Mon Aug 21, 2006 12:28 am

Is it OK if we compare international ordeals?
Jordan Hassay- couldn't go because she's born 1991, or in other words too young- a 15 year old. If she'd only compete for Bahrain, they'd first make her 27, then bring her back down to 18 Image
Emily Pidgeon- couldn't go because her big boss, i.e, UKA director, is a fat knob who's trying to show who has the biggest dick around, and has no qualms about settling personal scores with coaches who dare defy him through punishing those coaches' athletes.

It's too bad that our sport is all too often about the bureaucrats, not the athletes. And in this context, the Bahraini bureaucrats seem to be winning...
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Postby Daisy » Mon Aug 21, 2006 8:18 am

La_Spigola_Loca wrote:Emily Pidgeon- couldn't go because her big boss, i.e, UKA director, is a fat knob who's trying to show who has the biggest dick around, and has no qualms about settling personal scores with coaches who dare defy him through punishing those coaches' athletes.


Amazing, intially I was sceptical at the rabid criticism directed at UKA but this one make you wonder whats going on in the corridors of power. It sounds as if they might have lost their direction a little here.
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Postby tafnut » Thu Aug 24, 2006 8:30 am

Florida has a new star, Ashley Brasovan, a 15-year-old sophomore who just ran a 16:37 5K road race (certified, paved flat course)

Image

image courtesy of and more info at http://www.milesplit.com/article/10538
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Postby mump boy » Thu Aug 24, 2006 9:43 am

Daisy wrote:
La_Spigola_Loca wrote:Emily Pidgeon- couldn't go because her big boss, i.e, UKA director, is a fat knob who's trying to show who has the biggest dick around, and has no qualms about settling personal scores with coaches who dare defy him through punishing those coaches' athletes.


Amazing, intially I was sceptical at the rabid criticism directed at UKA but this one make you wonder whats going on in the corridors of power. It sounds as if they might have lost their direction a little here.


oh please

emily didn't go because her coach and parents think she's something special who should be treated differntly to everyone else.

the rules where you attended the training camp with all your team mates or you didin't getr selected. for some reason emily is better than everyone else and the camp wasn't up to her high standards.

funny no one else seemed to have a problem
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Postby La_Spigola_Loca » Thu Aug 24, 2006 11:59 am

mump boy wrote:the rules where you attended the training camp with all your team mates or you didin't getr selected.


And the rules are always correct and just. Obey your betters. Sieg Heil.
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Postby truthmaker » Thu Aug 24, 2006 1:52 pm

"the rules where you attended the training camp with all your team mates or you didin't getr selected. for some reason emily is better than everyone else and the camp wasn't up to her high standards. "

Nowhere in the selection criteria does it say you have to attend their holding camp.

http://www.ukathletics.net/vsite/vnavsi ... st,00.html
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Postby EPelle » Sun Dec 10, 2006 3:52 am

Pidgeon finished fourth at the European Junior Cross Country Championships this morning. Seventeen-year-old junior Stephanie Twell won the championships. Ancuta Bobocel, the first athlete featured on the first page of this thread, finished third.

Twell, born 1989-08-17, ran 4.12,76/9.07,41 outdoors in 2006.

Hasay has her work cut out .
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Postby AS » Mon Mar 26, 2007 5:02 pm

Pidgeon managed 17th in the World X junior race:

http://www.iaaf.org/WXC07/results/gende ... index.html

She was beaten by a whole lot of Africans, a couple of Japanese runners and also a Brit two years her junior, - 15 year old Charlotte Purdue (d.o.b. 10 Jun 1991). What's the background on this new Brit hope?

Only other runner mentioned in this thread to compete in Mombassa was Aussie Lucy Starrat (d.o.b. 4 Feb 1990) who finished 34th.
Last edited by AS on Mon Mar 26, 2007 11:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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