I think my problem.........


Forum devoted to track & field items of an historical nature.

Postby kuha » Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:50 pm

Throw the poor guy a shovel, for God's sake!
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Postby Brutal » Tue Jan 10, 2006 4:53 pm

gh wrote:You're deep in it alright.


translation

Sorry Brutal it's just me. I'm simply having a hard time trying to deal with somebody who does know all that stuff. Please be patient with me. I'll get my mind right :D
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Postby dukehjsteve » Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:06 pm

Brutal, if you are going to pick on the guy, at least have the manners to get his first name right.

GARRY
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Postby Brutal » Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:13 pm

dukehjsteve wrote:Brutal, if you are going to pick on the guy, at least have the manners to get his first name right.

GARRY


I'm not picking on him, I'm merely counterpunching. He's constantly trying to prove me wrong for some unknown reason. I can't believe he hasn't figured out by now that I 'm a big fan of speed. When somebody starts mentioning Mozelle Ellerbe, that should be a hint.
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Postby dukehjsteve » Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:15 pm

Hey Brutus, how often do you polish your mirror so you can look at yourself better, about every 10 seconds ?
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Postby Brutal » Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:22 pm

dukehjsteve wrote:Hey Brutus, how often do you polish your mirror so you can look at yourself better, about every 10 seconds ?


If you really pay attention you'll notice I don't play that until somebody starts challenging me. Go ahead look for yourself. People simply can't stand it when somebody knows their stuff. For some reason they just have to try their best to prove them wrong. Well as you are seeing it ain't working.

Look at you right now. See how you're acting when you really have no clue what is really going on here. Yep human nature!
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Postby dukehjsteve » Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:27 pm

my last comment, then it's good night for me:

If you are so smart BrutUS, why don't you even know the name of the person you have been always jousting with ? You know the name of every sprinter in the world but not the name of T& FN's Editor ?
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Postby Brutal » Tue Jan 10, 2006 5:55 pm

dukehjsteve wrote:my last comment, then it's good night for me:

If you are so smart BrutUS, why don't you even know the name of the person you have been always jousting with ? You know the name of every sprinter in the world but not the name of T& FN's Editor ?


Dude to make a big deal out of spelling is tiny.
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Postby kuha » Tue Jan 10, 2006 6:40 pm

"Dude to make a big deal out of spelling is tiny."

Oh my God! Please, I'm rolling on the floor, vomiting on badgers (or whatever's going on on that other thread). Everyone else is a complete, total, hopeless IDIOT for getting stuff wrong (supposedly), but not the all wise, all powerful Brutal. Sorry, but blustery arrogance just isn't a very becoming quality.
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Postby Brutal » Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:09 am

kuha wrote:"Dude to make a big deal out of spelling is tiny."

Oh my God! Please, I'm rolling on the floor, vomiting on badgers (or whatever's going on on that other thread). Everyone else is a complete, total, hopeless IDIOT for getting stuff wrong (supposedly), but not the all wise, all powerful Brutal. Sorry, but blustery arrogance just isn't a very becoming quality.


If this were "spellers.com" I could understand your point. Guess what, it's not. I don't go around correcting anyone, in case you haven't noticed. All I do is defend my position on things. If someone simply has to prove me wrong then by all means "prove" it. Don't just assume I'm wrong because they haven't done their homework. I might read something wrong as in the one writting was wrong but I never throw anything out I haven't picked up somewhere.

Example...

For years receiver Harold Jackson was always referred to as a 9.3 sprinter while at Jackson State. He himself said he had ran that time a few times. Track&Field News had a 9.4 for him. That sort of thing isn't that uncommon. I've heard Tim Dwight referred to as a "world class" sprinter. He wasn't!
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Postby Vern » Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:10 am

Just like to say I've enjoyed this thread, and learned a lot too.
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Postby EPelle » Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:29 am

(Don:t Play in the Street) wrote:...He's constantly trying to prove me wrong for some unknown reason. I can't believe he hasn't figured out by now that I 'm a big fan of speed. When somebody starts mentioning Mozelle Ellerbe, that should be a hint.

Back your claims up with links - both of you. Two very comprehensive sites exist which list top-30 world leaders from ages back. If you feel you are right, look up your stat and link it. GH can do the same. If you feel like GH is "constantly trying to prove [you] wrong for some unknown reason", this is not the forum with which to take up that issue.
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Postby Brutal » Wed Jan 11, 2006 1:40 am

EPelle wrote:
(Don:t Play in the Street) wrote:...He's constantly trying to prove me wrong for some unknown reason. I can't believe he hasn't figured out by now that I 'm a big fan of speed. When somebody starts mentioning Mozelle Ellerbe, that should be a hint.

Back your claims up with links - both of you. Two very comprehensive sites exist which list top-30 world leaders from ages back. If you feel you are right, look up your stat and link it. GH can do the same. If you feel like GH is "constantly trying to prove [you] wrong for some unknown reason", this is not the forum with which to take up that issue.


The problem isn't do I think I'm right, it's I don't bring things up unless I'm confident I am. Now the possibility that I was fed the wrong info is realistic. That has happened.

It's simply human nature to try and poke holes in the armor of anyone who comes on a bit strong with their opinions. Hell I understand that. I also do that. Nobody wants a know it all, to know it all..hahaha!!! I could list 500 sprinters with their best times and schools they attended, if I get one wrong it's not.."wow that was pretty impressive" it's.."yeah well you missed 497"....hahaha!!! It's simply what people do, they can't help it.

The funny thing in dealing with Garry, is that I got the stuff he's questioning right out of Track&Field News.
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Re: 80 OG 100m

Postby Vern » Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:14 am

eldrick wrote:
eldrick wrote:qa guy i never even heard of runs 10.13 ( ? legal time ), only 0.02s slower than well's lifetime best, set at same meet

so wells wasn't alone in setting a lifetime pb there

if an "unknown" coud set a pb within 0.02s of wells


8th in 100 final at Montreal. Not unknown, with or without qoute marks.

thanks

of note, i found out that both wells' 10.11 & petrov's 10.13 had the same +1.4 wind & were run in consecutive heats

also in '78 ec:

Men's 100m. Final. European Athletics Championships 1978

1. Pietro MENNEA ITA 10.27
2. Eugen RAY GDR 10.36
3. Vladimir IGNATIENKO URS 10.37
4. Petar PETROV BUL 10.41
5. Leszek DUNECKI POL 10.43
6. Allan WELLS GBR 10.45

i'm sure he was a nice chap & kind to old ladies & small dogs, but he's hardly a household name in his own bathroom !


Agreed! The reason he always stuck in my mind was that he was the first really muscular sprinter I'd ever seen - kind of Eugen Ray build.

At least that's how it seemed when I was 13..... I'll see if I can find any pics.
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Postby Vern » Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:28 am

Image


Here he is. Not as herculean as I thought, but still pretty big.

Good photo! Not much relaxation there....

Looks like Crawford has just taken the lead, but Quarrie came back (Crawford lost stride, nearly tripped at the end) again. Petrov must have faded badly, he doesn't look more than a stride behind Borzov.[/url]
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Postby Rob » Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:42 am

..
Last edited by Rob on Sun Jan 29, 2006 4:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby eldrick » Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:49 am

Vern wrote:Image


Here he is. Not as herculean as I thought, but still pretty big.

Good photo! Not much relaxation there....

Looks like Crawford has just taken the lead, but Quarrie came back (Crawford lost stride, nearly tripped at the end) again. Petrov must have faded badly, he doesn't look more than a stride behind Borzov.[/url]


shit !

the guy's a monster !
( did his trainer have to keep him at bay with a string of garlic ? )

look at the definition on those quads !

borzov ain't too bad either !
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Postby Brutal » Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:53 am

Here were the results of the 70 nationals in the 100


1970
F: 100 yards; S/F: 9/8; D: 26 JUN; W: 0.0 mph

1. Ivory Crockett 9.3
2. Ben Vaughan 9.3
3. Charles Greene 9.3
4. Eddie Hart 9.3
5. Robert J. Taylor 9.3
6. Bobby Turner 9.5

One thing that always goes untalked about is the fact that the Europeans ran a 100 meters, while the Americans were running the 100 yards. That had to make some difference.

Too bad Carlos didn't hang around until 72.
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Postby Vern » Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:04 am

This was Petrov's coach: http://www.nsa.bg/en/teacher,203

Seemed he did a lot of reseach on altitude training - a huge paper on Google.

Check out the t & f names who've been there - impressive.
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Postby eldrick » Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:15 am

Vern wrote:This was Petrov's coach: http://www.nsa.bg/en/teacher,203

Seemed he did a lot of reseach on altitude training - a huge paper on Google.

Check out the t & f names who've been there - impressive.



sorry vern,

i refuse to open any link which has

"NSA"

written in it !
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Postby Vern » Wed Jan 11, 2006 3:28 am

I've now discovered what National Sports Academy is in Bulgarian... It's not every day one can say that.

Eldrick, Pandora awaits you :wink:
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Postby paulthefan » Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:14 am

Brutal wrote:
paulthefan wrote:
Brutal wrote:
I'm have no "convictions" that Moss was that fast as a freshman. I'm just saying I knew guys running 9.9 at 16. Who weren't nearly as fast as what I think Moss is.

Don't pretend running in lane 1 is not a big disadvantage. Sure it is!




We all know a few guys that ran sub 10 as 16 year olds.. some of them white... most that I saw were NEVER the tall and lanky type... I have NEVER seen a tall and lanky 14 year old run 9.6 ... so please Just the facts!... your hyperbole and ideology are shading your view of reality...

..outstanding actual differences... as everyone exagerates the difference.... you are doing your part with your Brutal assessment of Moss the 14 year old wonder... so far it is par for the course!


How about Usian Bolt?



I dont know what Usain Bolt ran as a freshman.. but please, the conventional meaning of a HS FRESHMAN is 14 years old .. by the spring they may have turned 15... ...but NOT 16... a person who is 16 is either a sophmore or a junior, if he is a Freshman is mentally handicapped or has other severe problems adjusting.

I'm reading how Harvey Glance was running 9.7 at 16. Not not saying Moss was a Glance. I'm just saying he was probably very fast, very young.



Bobby Morrow was running 9.6 as a 17 year old in 1953... Jesse Owens probably was capable of 9.6 as a 16 year old and of course Frank Wykoff was near that as well... so what?....

Randy Moss is not the 5' 9" Harvey Glance let alone able to run faster than Glance as a 14/15 year old..

But once again you make some outrageous claim about the leaps and bounds advantage of the black athlete (Randy Moss is just one example) over the white athlete (Chris Collinsworth) and you hold out these fantasies as the proof....when someone scratches their head and raises a flag of concern you usher in more irrelevant factoids to obfuscate the biases that you bring.....

I think Randy Moss could have made a great sprinter, could he have reached the very top?... probably NOT.....

from now on jjust the facts please.... dont let your racial ideology shape your view of the facts.
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Postby Brutal » Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:32 am

Let's talk some "facts" then.

No white American has ever ran a sub 10.10 much less a sub 10.00 explain why that is.

Tell me why all the sprint records from high school to world are held by black athletes.

Talk to me why tiny Jamaica would kick China's butt in the sprints.As would Trinidad and Cuba.

Here are 5 speedy black receivers that all ran a sub10.20. Why no white guys?

Bob Hayes
Alvis Whitted
Sam Graddy
James Jett
Willie Gault

Here are 5 speedy black running backs that all ran sub 9.5/10.3, why no white guys?

Herschel Walker
Travis Wiliams
Curtis Dickey
OJ Simpson
Michael Bennett

Here are 5 speedy defensive backs who all ran sub 9.5/10.30. Where's the white guys?

Darrell Green
James Trapp
Terrence Newman
Clarence Childs
Henry Carr

Why do we have to go all the way back to 1964 to find a white sprinter on a USA Oly 4x1 team?

Why do we have to go all the wy back to 1956 to find a white American winning the Olympic 100 meters?

Go ahead give me a white Reggie Bush or Vince Young.

Why has Nigeria had more sub10.00 sprinters than white Europe?

Why are the fastest Canadians, Brits, French black?

Also keep in mind, today high school kids are running a hell of a lot faster than back in the day. Most national class guys can run 10.40. That would have beat Morrow at Melbourne.


Chris Collinsworth???????...hahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!
Last edited by Brutal on Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:55 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Rob » Wed Jan 11, 2006 4:34 am

..
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Postby Brutal » Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:02 am

My point when it comes to Hart vs Borzov is that anything can and will happen when you get guys of that caliber against each other in a big race. Look at Powell at the 2004 Olympics. Look at Kim Collins at the World's. Hell back in 52 Lindy Remigino couldn't even place i the NCAA's. I'm not going to let anyone tell me..."oh Borzov wins".....nobody knows that. Who took Gatlin to win his Oly gold? Who took Hasley Crawford? Look back to 96. Donovan Bailey only won 9 finals out of 20 some races. Frankie Fredericks was running far faster times......guess what?

Borzov was the favorite that's all.
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Postby paulthefan » Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:12 am

Brutal wrote:Let's talk some "facts" then.


thanks for acknowledging that your Moss claims were all farce.


No white American has ever ran a sub 10.10 much less a sub 10.00 explain why that is.


because whites dont do sprints .. it is that simple.. I would guess that if they made up the working class block that they did in the 50s we would see more than 50 or so sub 10.10s from the white segment of the US.



Tell me why all the sprint records from high school to world are held by black athletes.


are you sure that is true ?..... let me guess you are as sure of this as you were that Randy Moss was a 9.6 dash man at 14 years old.


Talk to me why tiny Jamaica would kick China's butt in the sprints.As would Trinidad and Cuba.


we continue to argue past each other .. as you present an obsessive compulsiveness that forbids you from seeing when your debator agrees with you and when he is trying to move to a finer point.. .. you simply continue to repeat the obvious.. the obvious then becomes everything and the explanation of everything... I recommend higher learning.



Here are 5 speedy black receivers that all ran a sub10.20. Why no white guys?

Bob Hayes
Alvis Whitted
Sam Graddy
James Jett
Willie Gault

Why do we have to go all the way back to 1964 to find a white sprinter on a USA Oly 4x1 team?


probably because that is when whites lost interest in sprinting... again if you are argueing with me that blacks are superior at sprinting you are preaching to the choir... and have added nothing to what you have to say for the 2 years I have heard your pedantic rants.... and I say this as someone that argued with you and on your side on other threads.. I realize you are arguing with countless people but please dont respond to my posts if you are going to make arguements directed at other peoples views...


Why do we have to go all the wy back to 1956 to find a white American winning the Olympic 100 meters?


because Bobby Morrow was that good!


Also keep in mind, today high school kids are running a hell of a lot faster than back in the day. Most national class guys can run 10.40. That would have beat Morrow at Melbourne.


They wouldnt beat Ira Murchison let alone Morrow that day, try to pulll your nose out of the ass of todays HS sprinters ... They would be left in the dust, just as they would against Owens, Hilliard, Hary, Hayes Hines and Borzov....if you want a HS kid to beat Morrow in 56 you had better build a time machine a synthetic track and a wind tunnel for them to run in while Morrow pounds the sand faces a couple m/s headwind in the real race..... more proof that you are a myopic.


Chris Collinsworth???????...hahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!


you are also getting weird .
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Postby Brutal » Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:24 am

So you shucked and jived and did a few tap dance routines ending up saying nothing. I don't care how much white athletes want to sprint they will not be the best. What they don't sprint in Russia,Germany,Poland and Italy? Where are their some 10.00 sprinters?

Without those roots back to West Africa you will not be contending for Olympic gold, no matter what you do. Drop this crazy talk about interest. What they don't run track in Wyoming,Montana,Idaho and the Dakota's? Sure they do, so why do we never see a fast white guy from there.

Talk about higher learning. Do you even have a clue about any of this? You appear totally lost to me. Also don't tell me J-Mee Samuels a 10.08 high schooler couldn't hang with those guys in the 50's. Hell yes he could. Usian Bolt is just a teenager running sub20.00. Ever hear of him? Did you know Glance,Johnny Jones and Dwayne Evans were all teenagers when they ran in the Olympics? Probably not.

Dude try educating yourself about this stuff, it appears you are just winging it.
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Postby SQUACKEE » Wed Jan 11, 2006 5:24 am

>you are also getting weird <.

GETTING :?: :shock: :?: :shock: :roll: :!:
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Postby paulthefan » Wed Jan 11, 2006 8:15 am

Brutal wrote:So you shucked and jived and did a few tap dance routines ending up saying nothing.


accounting for your reduncancy/repeat coding, I said alot more than you said....no doubt you are still searching for that Moss 9.7 circa 1992.....

you dont hear anything anyone says anyways.. you never address anything anyone says here... you just ignore what they say and plow on repeating the same old mantra.... at least I address your points, show agreement were there is some and point out flaws... you then igore everything grap and old line from your old files and hit the repeat key, add some jibberish to supplement and then you call it a proof...

again I recommend an education.. not an increased memory bank of more track lists but an actual education ... from an acredited university.


Without those roots back to West Africa you will not be contending for Olympic gold, no matter what you do. Drop this crazy talk about interest. What they don't run track in Wyoming,Montana,Idaho and the Dakota's? Sure they do, so why do we never see a fast white guy from there.



and the population of those 3 states totals about 1/2 that of the metro dc area. nevertheless I gave you the theory of west african heritage and sprint supremacy.... show some gratitude.


Talk about higher learning. Do you even have a clue about any of this? You appear totally lost to me.


the guy who help you shape your hypothesis is now lost to you...


Also don't tell me J-Mee Samuels a 10.08 high schooler couldn't hang with those guys in the 50's.


He looks like Ira Murchison on a supplement rich diet and a better track.



Hell yes he could. Usian Bolt is just a teenager running sub20.00. Ever hear of him? Did you know Glance,Johnny Jones and Dwayne Evans were all teenagers when they ran in the Olympics? Probably not.


yes and Evans stands out as the most talented of that bunch. Four years earlier a 19 year old Mennea won a bronze in the 200 too... in impossibility in your strange world.


Dude try educating yourself about this stuff, it appears you are just winging it.


With an ideologue it is easy and I only have to just wing it.
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Postby marknhj » Wed Jan 11, 2006 10:49 am

Just stumbled over this article by Peter Matthews:

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0662.htm
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Postby EPelle » Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:09 am

Brutal, you are not related to Satch are you? Third cousins, maybe?
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Postby gh » Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:32 am

Brutal wrote:Also don't tell me J-Mee Samuels a 10.08 high schooler couldn't hang with those guys in the 50's. Hell yes he could.


The Samuels 10.08 is actually a bit of an anomaly, and it will be interesting to see how he fares running against collegiate competition.

Here's his sequence of 100s in '04
10.48
10.54
10.25
10.22w
10.07w (this one sticks out)
10.25w
10.60
10.30
10.53

And here's '05
10.60
10.58
10.07(A)w (this one doesn't stick out because it's a 4.1mps wind at 1500m altitude--Albuquerque--so it's about as aided as you can get)
10.33
10.34
10.49
10.58
10.22
10.05w (sticks out)
10.08 (sticks out)
10.29
10.20

All three of the "sticks out" times (i.e., don't follow w/ the rest of the progression) were made, different years, at the same age-group meet in Greensboro. First thing that pops into my head is familiarity with the starter and the ability to get perfect starts. Note that at the same site at the Nike Nationals (with a 1.2 wind, compared to an 0.7 in the 10.08) that he runs 10.34.
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Postby Vern » Wed Jan 11, 2006 11:38 am

marknhj wrote:Just stumbled over this article by Peter Matthews:

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0662.htm


Good stuff. I knew I was born in the wrong month....... I share my birthday with that outstanding athlete Colin Montgomerie. Wouldn't say no to his bank accounts or golfing ability (or ex-wife... mmmmmm), but since Christmas I'm nearing his waistline :cry:
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Postby Pego » Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:28 pm

marknhj wrote:Just stumbled over this article by Peter Matthews:

http://www.pponline.co.uk/encyc/0662.htm


I don't have evidence to refute this, but my gut reaction says "a lot of BS stats".
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Postby Daisy » Wed Jan 11, 2006 2:43 pm

Pego wrote:"a lot of BS stats".

Prove it!! Go Huxley on us and wreck the fun. :shock:

Before you do i want you to explain this datum point. I was born on the first day of spring and i don't have speed or endurance. More relevent, I didn't have speed or endurance. It seems that Matthews is right on the money. :roll:
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