What do we think of the NBA dress code?


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What do we think of the NBA dress code?

Postby MJD » Wed Oct 19, 2005 5:38 am

"Indiana guard Stephen Jackson contended yesterday that the jewelry ban is racist and aimed at young black men. Former Knick Marcus Camby, now of the Denver Nuggets, says he objects to the dress code "unless every NBA player is given a stipend to buy clothes" - which instantly became the dumbest thing any NBA player has said since his pal, Latrell Sprewell, griped "I've got to feed my family" to explain his anger when Minnesota didn't offer him a new contract worth more than $10 million a year."

Once again proving that brains aren't a prerequisite to playing professional sports.
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Re: What do we think of the NBA dress code?

Postby tafnut » Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:15 am

MJD wrote:"Indiana guard Stephen Jackson contended yesterday that the jewelry ban is racist and aimed at young black men.


This may be the most ridiculous thing I can post here, but I sorta agree. The 'culture' that many of these players come from is so foreign to The Suits that there is no way they can agree on what is 'appropriate' NBA wear. If they look neat, trimmed, and within the bounds of the surrounding culture, what they wear is their business, NOT the league's. Talk about making an issue of a non-issue! Even as an educator, I am constantly astounded by people in authority who come up with arbitrary rules (aka what THEY think is 'right') without once trying to see things from the perspective of those they have authority over. My school has some of the the most bizarrely unfair dress codes rules, mostly because we have a double standard towards the females.

It's hard to commiserate with players making zillions of $$$ whining about petty little stuff, but we have to remember that the MEN running this zoo are just as privileged and just as intellectually-challenged as many of the players. Compare this to the NHL's problems, and the strikes MLB and the NFL have had, and you see there's LOTS of blame to spread around. It is NOT just the players - management is guilty of arbitrary hubris.
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Out of proportion

Postby KevinM » Wed Oct 19, 2005 6:39 am

Before we head down the inevitible path of throwing racism charges at Stern, let's take a look at what is actually being proposed here:

Stern/The NBA is requiring that athletes dress business casual (including "dress" jeans) when they are in public representing the team and must wear a jacket when on the bench during injury. That's it. No one is asking that rap albums not be made, that appearances at Vibe parties be stopped, or that the players throw away chains or take their hair out of cornrows. If any of the offensive things I just listed were stipulated, then by all means, throw your accusations directly at Stern.

Until such statements are made, however, let's take a deep breath and realize that essentially here the CEO of a corporation that pays its employees an exorbitant amount of money to do a fairly enjoyable job is asking that his employees wear a pair of khakis and a button-down shirt (or turtleneck!) when REPRESENTING THE COMPANY IN PUBLIC.

Racism, my ass.
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Re: Out of proportion

Postby tafnut » Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:08 am

KevinM wrote:or that the players throw away chains


oh, I thought that WAS what he was asking them to do - I know I simply cannot EXIST without my bling clanking on my chest with my shirt unbuttoned to the navel!
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Postby KevinM » Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:14 am

He's asking players to not wear the chains on the outside of their clothing when representing the team. Why is that distinction so hard for the critics to understand and accept? What the players do and wear on their (considerable) free time is still their business, as it should be.
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Postby SQUACKEE » Wed Oct 19, 2005 7:30 am

the suits might have a point as far as what the players wear on the court but arriving at the stadium is another thing. they are adults who should be able to wear a clown outfit if they want to. once they are in front of the tv and crowds thats another thing.
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Postby tafnut » Wed Oct 19, 2005 8:02 am

KevinM wrote: when representing the team


Then just do what everyone else does - have them wear the team warm-up if they're on the bench!
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Postby KevinM » Wed Oct 19, 2005 8:06 am

tafnut wrote:
KevinM wrote: when representing the team


Then just do what everyone else does - have them wear the team warm-up if they're on the bench!


That would be fine as well. Still hard to see how you can level racial accusations here.
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Postby tafnut » Wed Oct 19, 2005 8:18 am

KevinM wrote:Still hard to see how you can level racial accusations here.



You're right - it's not really race - it's about sub-cultures - The Suits vs. the Players. The Suits want the players to look 'presentable' by THEIR standards, not the players' standards. So basically they are saying the players don't have enough sense to dress 'properly'. What the suits don't get is that the players ARE dressing properly for THEIR sub-culture. I don't like or get THAT look either, but that doesn't mean I need to pass judgement on their tastes. IF (!) there was ANY fans that complained, it was not anyone who identified with the players' sub-culture (i.e., the people who dress like that) which is, of course, a key sub-set of ALL the NBA fans. I don't like tattoos or piercings either, but that's MY problem, not the problem of the people who sport them. Go to any college campus and you'll see that both are the Norm. I guess I just have a problem with one group of people telling another (adult!) group how to present themselves. On the other hand, the NBA is OWNED by The Suits and the players had better understand that little subtlety.
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Re: Out of proportion

Postby mojo » Wed Oct 19, 2005 8:38 am

tafnut wrote:
KevinM wrote:or that the players throw away chains


oh, I thought that WAS what he was asking them to do - I know I simply cannot EXIST without my bling clanking on my chest with my shirt unbuttoned to the navel!


Thanks for that.

Back to therapy. :roll: :twisted:

I think the company (NBA) has the right to set a dress code for its employees while on the job (ie. representing the NBA).
But I gave up on pro basketball a long time ago. The last time I was a fan was in the 70's whne I loved the Seattle Supersonics.

Taf- what aspect of your school's dress code do you find unfair to the girls?
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Re: Out of proportion

Postby tafnut » Wed Oct 19, 2005 11:30 am

mojo wrote:Taf- what aspect of your school's dress code do you find unfair to the girls?


Just the opposite - they get away with murder and the boys are on the short leash.
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Re: Out of proportion

Postby mojo » Wed Oct 19, 2005 12:52 pm

tafnut wrote:
mojo wrote:Taf- what aspect of your school's dress code do you find unfair to the girls?


Just the opposite - they get away with murder and the boys are on the short leash.


Oh. I believe it is the same here.

I really have to bite my tongue when I see some of the skimpy outfits grils wear.
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Postby gh » Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:51 am

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Postby tafnut » Thu Oct 20, 2005 6:56 am



so I infer he has a problem with the NBA Dress Code also - heaven forbid that someone should agree with me on this! :o
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Postby skyin' brian » Thu Oct 20, 2005 7:07 am

First, these players arent payed by the NBA, their teams pay them, but as the teams are governed by the NBA and apparently they agreed to this, they should comply.

The policy does go to far. What should be in place, perhaps, is teams setting their own less strict dress codes.

What is next? Baseball pitchers being requried to shave their wild facial hair...

but yeah, pay me the league minimum of 400k(in the ballpark of a certain CEO i have heard of) and ill go to work in whatever you ask me to
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Postby KevinM » Thu Oct 20, 2005 8:08 am

skyin' brian wrote:but yeah, pay me the league minimum of 400k(in the ballpark of a certain CEO i have heard of) and ill go to work in whatever you ask me to


I'm assuming most of us are paid less than the league minimum of 400K, and we don't cry about any kind of "-ism" when we're told our office has a business casual dress code.

The backlash by the players has nothing to do with race and everything to do with being young men who have not heard the word "no" applied to them since 10th grade or earlier.
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Postby No Name » Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:07 am

tafnut wrote:
KevinM wrote:Still hard to see how you can level racial accusations here.



You're right - it's not really race - it's about sub-cultures - The Suits vs. the Players. The Suits want the players to look 'presentable' by THEIR standards, not the players' standards. So basically they are saying the players don't have enough sense to dress 'properly'. What the suits don't get is that the players ARE dressing properly for THEIR sub-culture. I don't like or get THAT look either, but that doesn't mean I need to pass judgement on their tastes. IF (!) there was ANY fans that complained, it was not anyone who identified with the players' sub-culture (i.e., the people who dress like that) which is, of course, a key sub-set of ALL the NBA fans. I don't like tattoos or piercings either, but that's MY problem, not the problem of the people who sport them. Go to any college campus and you'll see that both are the Norm. I guess I just have a problem with one group of people telling another (adult!) group how to present themselves. On the other hand, the NBA is OWNED by The Suits and the players had better understand that little subtlety.



The executives of a corporation decide what the standards will be - not the rank-and-file employees. The fact that the NBA dress code is inconsistent with the players' "sub-culture" is irrelevant. David Stern is the CEO and that means he has the authority to implement a dress code in the workplace. If you decide to cater to every individual person's "sub-culture," no dress code in any workplace would ever work.
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Postby tafnut » Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:20 am

No Name wrote:David Stern is the CEO and that means he has the authority to implement a dress code in the workplace. If you decide to cater to every individual person's "sub-culture," no dress code in any workplace would ever work.


Because he has the AUTHORITY to do does NOT mean he SHOULD. How many examples can you think of where people how misused their power? This is NOT a big deal, so why is he making a Big Deal out of it? The players are just playing the same 'game' he is. His lack of respect of the players is obvious. If he could see things form their perspective, he'd see what a Blowhard he is. If I were in their shoes, I'd acquiesce precisely BECAUSE it is no big deal, but did he need to do it this way? No.
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Postby skyin' brian » Thu Oct 20, 2005 9:40 am

No Name wrote:
tafnut wrote:
KevinM wrote:Still hard to see how you can level racial accusations here.



You're right - it's not really race - it's about sub-cultures - The Suits vs. the Players. The Suits want the players to look 'presentable' by THEIR standards, not the players' standards. So basically they are saying the players don't have enough sense to dress 'properly'. What the suits don't get is that the players ARE dressing properly for THEIR sub-culture. I don't like or get THAT look either, but that doesn't mean I need to pass judgement on their tastes. IF (!) there was ANY fans that complained, it was not anyone who identified with the players' sub-culture (i.e., the people who dress like that) which is, of course, a key sub-set of ALL the NBA fans. I don't like tattoos or piercings either, but that's MY problem, not the problem of the people who sport them. Go to any college campus and you'll see that both are the Norm. I guess I just have a problem with one group of people telling another (adult!) group how to present themselves. On the other hand, the NBA is OWNED by The Suits and the players had better understand that little subtlety.



The executives of a corporation decide what the standards will be - not the rank-and-file employees. The fact that the NBA dress code is inconsistent with the players' "sub-culture" is irrelevant. David Stern is the CEO and that means he has the authority to implement a dress code in the workplace. If you decide to cater to every individual person's "sub-culture," no dress code in any workplace would ever work.


These BBall stars arent exactly what i would think of as "rank and file"

Racist or not, this does not exactly breed diversity.

Both sides here are out of line, but i would think that the NBA is more than its players simply because forcing players to dress "business casual" or whatever does not add any vaule to fans experiences. Remember Dennis Rodman, sometimes professionl sports are more interesting because of the Indivudials that play them and their personalities, sometimes espressed through clothing. These guys with all the "bling" obvoiusly care how they look and make an effort to look their best. why is that not enough?
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Postby twittering debutante » Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:03 pm

These NBA guys have been pampered their entire lives, at least as long as their basketball prowess became known.

None of these guys have ever worked a 9-5 job and none will ever have to.

If I were making 3.8 million dollars a year (NBA avg salary) to play 82-100 games and my boss asked me to put away my pimp outfits until the season was over, I'd be down at the Armani store real quick.

When you've got professional jackasses like Iverson making 20 million annually say he;d like a clothing stipend, it's easy to realize none of these spoiled crybabies will ever get it.
Last edited by twittering debutante on Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby cullman » Thu Oct 20, 2005 1:03 pm

Kevin Willis' view on stylin...pre-David Stern dress code:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/basketba ... tyle_x.htm

IMHHO, leave the basketball players alone. On the other hand, golfer should be threatened with hard jail time with the way the dress on and off the course. Do they dress with the lights off?

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Postby utkvol80 » Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:50 am

I think the dress code is OK, what's the problem with wearing a suit? I guess Stern wishes to impose a measure of professionalism upon the NBA, that seems to have been lacking lately. I see nothing wrong with that. Of course it seems that he is tryig to deemphasis the styles and tastes of the hip-hop/gangsta sub-culture that is so much a part of the NBA, and if that's his aim then so be it.
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Postby No Name » Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:41 pm

skyin' brian wrote:
No Name wrote:
tafnut wrote:
KevinM wrote:Still hard to see how you can level racial accusations here.



You're right - it's not really race - it's about sub-cultures - The Suits vs. the Players. The Suits want the players to look 'presentable' by THEIR standards, not the players' standards. So basically they are saying the players don't have enough sense to dress 'properly'. What the suits don't get is that the players ARE dressing properly for THEIR sub-culture. I don't like or get THAT look either, but that doesn't mean I need to pass judgement on their tastes. IF (!) there was ANY fans that complained, it was not anyone who identified with the players' sub-culture (i.e., the people who dress like that) which is, of course, a key sub-set of ALL the NBA fans. I don't like tattoos or piercings either, but that's MY problem, not the problem of the people who sport them. Go to any college campus and you'll see that both are the Norm. I guess I just have a problem with one group of people telling another (adult!) group how to present themselves. On the other hand, the NBA is OWNED by The Suits and the players had better understand that little subtlety.



The executives of a corporation decide what the standards will be - not the rank-and-file employees. The fact that the NBA dress code is inconsistent with the players' "sub-culture" is irrelevant. David Stern is the CEO and that means he has the authority to implement a dress code in the workplace. If you decide to cater to every individual person's "sub-culture," no dress code in any workplace would ever work.


These BBall stars arent exactly what i would think of as "rank and file"

Racist or not, this does not exactly breed diversity.

Both sides here are out of line, but i would think that the NBA is more than its players simply because forcing players to dress "business casual" or whatever does not add any vaule to fans experiences. Remember Dennis Rodman, sometimes professionl sports are more interesting because of the Indivudials that play them and their personalities, sometimes espressed through clothing. These guys with all the "bling" obvoiusly care how they look and make an effort to look their best. why is that not enough?



It doesn't breed diversity? Just a guess, but I don't think the NBA will turn into an all-white league anytime soon.

And your assertion that the personalities make it interesting is your opinion. On the other hand, there are alot of fans (myself included) who prefer watching quality basketball to watching clowns like Rodman. If dressing in a professional manner will motivate players to play more like part of a team, it might add some value to my fan experience, if not yours.
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Re: Out of proportion

Postby tlb747 » Tue Oct 25, 2005 4:16 pm

For those who have to shop for clothes, could be a pain in the neck. Not all of the players make a lot of money, or manage it well. I do not like it, unless the players had shirts that puts down ethnicity, race, gender, etc.
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Postby mrbowie » Tue Oct 25, 2005 7:02 pm

Whether is was or was not meant to be racist, the bottom line is that of course it is.

I loved Ron Artest's comment that went something like this: "I've got a nice yellow shirt with a green collar that sparkles that I can't wait to wear."
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Re: Out of proportion

Postby Helen S » Wed Oct 26, 2005 9:42 am

Not all of the players make a lot of money

I guess "a lot" is a relative term- my understanding is that the low end of NBA players is still pretty well off- certialy a lot more than I make. I also have a dress code at work, but am supplied with the required shirt.
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Postby DrJay » Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:00 am

[quote="mrbowie"]Whether is was or was not meant to be racist, the bottom line is that of course it is.

I disagree. It's cultural. If the ABA had banned afros in the 1970s, I think that would have been racist. Who cares about afros? But the hip-hop/rap subculture from which the NBA is obviously trying to dissociate itself has high on its marquee disrespect for anyone other than oneself, advocacy of treating women as objects, advocacy of violence toward and rape of women, and advocacy of violence against uniformed officers of the law. Enough said. Big ABA afros? Great. Tommie Smith and John Carlos on the 1968 Mexico City medal podium with raised fists? Great. Rosa Parks? Great. Violence and guns and complete disregard for all but one's own selfish interests and utter lack of humility about anything? That's what the hip-hop/gangsta/rap subculture(s) represent to many (?most) of us not involved in it and David Stern is entitled to try and shed that portion of the NBA's image. The dress code is OK.
Last edited by DrJay on Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Out of proportion

Postby gh » Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:22 am

Helen S wrote:Not all of the players make a lot of money


really? from insidehoops.com we see that the poorest stiff in the league gets almost $400K this year):

Years in NBA 2005-06 2006-07 2007-08 2008-09 2009-10 2010-11
0 398,762 412,718 427,163 442,114 457,588 473,604
1 641,748 664,209 687,456 711,517 736,420 762,195
2 719,373 744,551 770,610 797,581 825,497 854,389
3 745,248 771,331 798,328 826,269 855,189 885,120
4 771,123 798,112 826,046 854,957 884,881 915,852
5 835,810 865,063 895,341 926,678 959,111 992,680
6 900,498 932,015 964,636 998,398 1,033,342 1,069,509
7 965,185 998,967 1,033,930 1,070,118 1,107,572 1,146,337
8 1,029,873 1,065,918 1,103,225 1,141,838 1,181,803 1,223,166
9 1,035,000 1,071,225 1,108,718 1,147,523 1,187,686 1,229,255
10+ 1,138,500 1,178,348 1,219,590 1,262,275 1,306,455 1,352,181
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Postby SQUACKEE » Wed Oct 26, 2005 11:37 am

i worked as a janitor for 8 bucks an hour and i HAD to wear a uniform. the only uniform i would enjoy wearing is the one required by the porn industry :P :wink:
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Postby Helen S » Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:40 pm

To clarify, I was quoting tlb747 who said they don' t all make alot of money.
I knew they did.

squakee, what uniform is that? acrylic high heels?
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Postby gh » Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:43 pm

so you were.... now that I'm getting inculcated into the ways of this new board, unless something is in a white quote box, I tend to think it's from the poster, particulalry if not set off by any kind of quote marks.
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Postby tlb747 » Wed Oct 26, 2005 12:57 pm

Thanks for the info about the salaries gh! I also mentioned that not all the players (NBA) manage their money well (like getting into debt). But if I confused anyone here, my bad.
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Postby KevinM » Wed Oct 26, 2005 1:54 pm

tlb747 wrote:I also mentioned that not all the players (NBA) manage their money well (like getting into debt).


So what? This means they can't afford to buy a polo shirt and some nice jeans? Any excuses as to why these players ( who make a minimum of $400,000 + per diem during the season) can't afford a few business casual digs deserves to be laughed out of any logical conversation.

This is not generational, racial, or class-driven, and calling it that is a shot to people who legitimately suffer from those biases. Thousands of young black men from every socioeconomic background accept jobs every day that require them to dress business casual. This is about outsized cases of entitlement, nothing more.
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Postby utkvol80 » Thu Oct 27, 2005 4:59 am

The essay linked below, by Earl Ofari Hutchinson, "The NBA Dress Code: Its Not About the Dress, Its the Stereotypes," is one of the best comments on the issue I have read so far:

http://www.blackathletesportsnetwork.ne ... 1201.shtml
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Postby No Name » Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:04 am

KevinM wrote:
tlb747 wrote:I also mentioned that not all the players (NBA) manage their money well (like getting into debt).


So what? This means they can't afford to buy a polo shirt and some nice jeans? Any excuses as to why these players ( who make a minimum of $400,000 + per diem during the season) can't afford a few business casual digs deserves to be laughed out of any logical conversation.

This is not generational, racial, or class-driven, and calling it that is a shot to people who legitimately suffer from those biases. Thousands of young black men from every socioeconomic background accept jobs every day that require them to dress business casual. This is about outsized cases of entitlement, nothing more.



And in any case, it is their own responsibility to manage their money well. If they can't manage a 400,000+ salary effectively enough to buy some respectable clothing, it's their problem.
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Postby tafnut » Thu Oct 27, 2005 6:58 am

utkvol80 wrote:The essay linked below, by Earl Ofari Hutchinson, "The NBA Dress Code: Its Not About the Dress, Its the Stereotypes," is one of the best comments on the issue I have read so far:

http://www.blackathletesportsnetwork.ne ... 1201.shtml


excerpt:
"Their dress, hip style, brash bravado, and the gangster rap that blare out of the NBA locker rooms and even through the PA systems at games reinforces the old stereotypes that young black males are sullen, defiant, and eternally in rebellion against the established order, and that includes the NBA. That has convinced even more Americans that the thug lifestyle is the black lifestyle."

It's probably just me, but I have a problem buying that. So because I listen to the Beatles and Stones, I reinforce the old stereotype that we (I) were all drug-addled hippies?

The NBA types who listen to rap music and wear 'those' clothes are simply following the styles of their sub-culture. If someone sees that as a negative thing, he/she/it needs to examine his/her/its own biases.
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Postby SQUACKEE » Thu Oct 27, 2005 7:03 am

>The NBA types who listen to rap music and wear 'those' clothes are simply following the styles of their sub-culture. If someone sees that as a negative thing, he/she/it needs to examine his/her/its own biases<

But nut, couldnt you make the same arguement for the girls in your highschool who want to dress like a "hooker"?
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Postby KevinM » Thu Oct 27, 2005 8:15 am

tafnut wrote:The NBA types who listen to rap music and wear 'those' clothes are simply following the styles of their sub-culture. If someone sees that as a negative thing, he/she/it needs to examine his/her/its own biases.


I feel (and probably sound) like a broken record here, but can you really not discern between work clothing and casual wear?
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Postby No Name » Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:00 am

tafnut wrote:
utkvol80 wrote:The essay linked below, by Earl Ofari Hutchinson, "The NBA Dress Code: Its Not About the Dress, Its the Stereotypes," is one of the best comments on the issue I have read so far:

http://www.blackathletesportsnetwork.ne ... 1201.shtml


excerpt:
"Their dress, hip style, brash bravado, and the gangster rap that blare out of the NBA locker rooms and even through the PA systems at games reinforces the old stereotypes that young black males are sullen, defiant, and eternally in rebellion against the established order, and that includes the NBA. That has convinced even more Americans that the thug lifestyle is the black lifestyle."

It's probably just me, but I have a problem buying that. So because I listen to the Beatles and Stones, I reinforce the old stereotype that we (I) were all drug-addled hippies?

The NBA types who listen to rap music and wear 'those' clothes are simply following the styles of their sub-culture. If someone sees that as a negative thing, he/she/it needs to examine his/her/its own biases.



You're being a bit self-righteous here, Tafnut. You're basically adopting the college anthropology professor view that all other cultures should be judged only by their own standards, and not through the biased lens of our own culture. So by your logic, should I look at militant Islamic clerics in London who preach hatred for America and say it's okay because it's within the bounds of their sub-culture?
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Postby skyin' brian » Thu Oct 27, 2005 9:41 am

KevinM wrote:
tafnut wrote:The NBA types who listen to rap music and wear 'those' clothes are simply following the styles of their sub-culture. If someone sees that as a negative thing, he/she/it needs to examine his/her/its own biases.


I feel (and probably sound) like a broken record here, but can you really not discern between work clothing and casual wear?


NBA work cloths = jersey and baggy shorts and high tops, maybe a headband, or are those out now too?
skyin' brian
 
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