AS to whom do they cheat...... no one per se. However, there are people out there who may be comparing themselves to standards that are misleading. That is, if one is doing a legitimate parallel squat with 500 in high school and someone else claims 700, that may make you think that you are not training properly, etc.
Some throwers do compete formally, with others perhaps in high school competing informally, many in Fla. competing scholastically. A few who have competed on a fairly high level in O. lifting: Gubner,Wilhelm, Walker, Marx, Semkiw,Fuerbach, Jerry Clayton (at Auburn), and, I am sure, others. I know several throwers who are top 1-3 in their state who have competed. Some have powerlifted (Jon Cole, George Frenn, and, I am sure, others).Maybe someone will get video or pics of the 700/405 at some point. I would also be interested in those who have seen those.
AS to throwers who have lifted and competed, I left out Ken Patera. Also, I watched Brian Oldfield compete in the mid-70's. I think he power cleaned and jerked a little over 300 lbs. That puts the 405 in perspective. I also think that it was Richard (?) Marks, not Marx.
The number of people in the world who can back squat to parallel or below, 700 lbs.,with no wraps, no suits, and who are who are, and have always been, CLEAN, are limited, in my opinion. THose who have done over 800 squat to parallel CLEAN AND ALWAYS CLEAN, NO WRAPS, NO SUITS, ETC., ARE VERY, VERY LIMITED.
Also, if Ryan Whiting's 405 (?) power clean was caught as El Toro described (very little bend in the knees, caught at almost straight legs height), that might be the equivalent of a 465-485 full clean. Olymic lifters would catch powers much lower than that on PR's, but would still figure 10%-15% if they went all the way under. I am not sure Shane Hamman (today) would catch 405 on only slightly flexed knees - almost no bend. Almost certainly not much more than 425, if that.
No one said he caught it with nearly straight legs. He said he powercleaned 405, even if it is a borderlien squat clean, so what? I know olympic lifters who clean 500 and have 580 butt to ground squats. It is not hard to imagine at all for a high school senior. Thinking of olympic lifters as the only guys who can clean huge is outdated, there are many freaks not doing full olympic lifting training. I should technically be able to squat clean 170-180kg, but I can only do 145, cause the technique is not there.
Big Macca, Deitmar - Sotomayor's 660 claim is again difficult to believe, assuming parallel or below. At the IPF World Powerlifting Championships last year, the first place winner did 715 squat in the 181 3/4 lbs. class, third place winner did 693, and 5th place winner did 572! So, Sotomayor out squatted him pretty easily (by 88 lbs!) even though the powerlifter had suits, wraps, etc. Seems a little strange.
I know now(from Big Macca) that 405 power clean fora high schooler is very believable, throwers lift much more than Olympic lifters, etc. Could you name me 3-5 of the guys you have seen clean over 500? Are they clean? I would guess that few, if any, have ever cleaned over 500 and have always been clean. Maybe you have found several, though. I have never seen a big guy, such as one would be if cleaning 500+, go low enough to touch his butt in a squat, much less a clean, and I have watched many films and a few world championships and Olympics in lifting, and have watched many top throwers lift, also. None went that low in a clean. How many weightlifting meets have you watched?
It is true we don't know how low that he supposedly went on the 405. Somewhere between slight bend and butt touching, although butt touching would not be a power clean. I would be surprised if he goes much, if any, below parallel.
Again, maybe someone can get some film of him power cleaning over 400. Maybe he is up to 410-420 by now. I would sure like to see it. When a thrower in high school, albeit a very talented one, has done 5% - 10%+% more than any 20 and under weightlifter in USA history, without concentrating on lifting per se, it ought to raise some red flags. It could be true; I would just like to see it or talk to some with WL knowledge who have seen it. Just like the Sotomayor claim to out squat the 5th best in the world by 88 lbs. There may well be some who believe that, also.
I'm sure Soto did squat with 300kg or close to it. But this would have been only for the extension range used in the high jump take off about 10-12 degrees. I don't think this would be out of this world for an elite jumper. If he had to go to parrallel, then half that would be believable.
Again, big macca, Whiting probably did move 405lbs off the floor and get it close to his shoulders but that does not equate to a strict power clean which is caught standing up at your full height.
I have seen a sequence of Anatoly Pisarenko doing a proper power clean supposedly as part of a set of 3 fast singles(not a triple but only 15-20s rest). This was at a championship training hall so he was in peak shape. It didn't look that easy but this seems about right for an elite lifter(120kg bwt, 260 C&J) not subject to random testing.
I'm with weightlifter- a schoolboy almost certainly never did a power clean but I am willing to be proved wrong by competitive endeavour or even a video(as long as he doesn't use Golds Gym photoshoot weights )
El Toro - It sounds to me like you know what you are talking about, although I am not that familiar with this forum and with you. Like you, I would be willing to be proven wrong, and could be. In my lifetime, I have usually seen claims that seem to be way out prove to be untrue more often than not.
Your thoughts on Sotomayor sound reasonable. When publications like SI use such outlandish numbers without looking into them, it really illustarates the problem.
Again, a high school young man doing at least 95% of what 350 lbs. Shane Hamman, 2 time Olympic WL team member, could do today after maybe close to 15 years of training, 1008 squat, dunk a tennis ball at 5 feet 9 inches? Possible, but not a given at all. I would have to see more proof.
Weightlifters being clean drug wise? What are you naive?
This is ridiculous, please email Tony Thompson at www.longandstrong.com and ask him about Ryans lifting, because it is pointless arguing with you. He said POWER CLEAN, what is it with you guys saying he probably high pulled it etc? Enough of this rubbish.
A powerclean is technically caught above parallel, El Toro, why are you making up this straight legged stuff? A powerclean is today know as I said, that is how all athletes do them. I bet SHane Hamman could PC 200kg+, hell half his cleans are caught above parallel anyway. Besides, the throwers don't train the squat clean at all, if Hamman just trained the squat clean, he would probably lift more.
See, there are different training goals in mind that need to be taken into account.
Rick saw Mike clean 500 with straps and 540 on
video (which he thinks Randy Barnes has a copy
of this video lift). Mike tossed a lot of
overweight shots in the off season and once
raced Andre Carson (a NCAA champ sprinter)
and kept up with him for the first 40 yards.
Rick promises us more in the future.
I trained with Australian Shot Putter Justin Anlezark for a few years and have witnessed him benching 560lbs and half squatting 660lbs
I have also trained with Stuart Rendell who has squatted, ATF 660lbs
i myself class myself as very weak and have power cleaned 360lbs
i trained at Boise State University ands watched Tyrone Nelson (?) a 19.8x thrower do hang clean reps on 395lbs
a good friend of mine watched Luis Meliz full squatting about 600lbs+ in the late 90s, i think meliz was still a junior at the time.
Last edited by Rufus Cookie on Thu Jul 14, 2005 11:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Big Macca - Just to correct you and the facts. Please show me where I alleged that all lifters were clean? Indeed, I made the point that lifters in the 70's, and before were from a different era. Now top lifters are tested at random as well as at competitions. There is still little doubt that the world's best lifters are FAR from 100% clean.
I do not know about Stulce's 235 power clean. I would have to see it, but don't say it is impossible. It is a lot more than Hamman and Patera if it was a power clean. If it was a full, then maybe right in there with them, especially assuming that he might have done more in a competition setting.
Maybe you forgot to mention the guys you know who clean (power clean?) over 500. The guys that are mentioned in the previous posts are not high schoolers, either.
Big Macca - What event was he in? What is his best clean? I have seen Shane lift more than a dozen times, and train that many times or more. I would say that his cleans (in competition)are definitely not caught above parallel, as a general rule. AS I stated earlier, big guys usually don't go as low.
Personally, I could easier believe a gold medalist in his late 20's or 30's doing 500 than a high schooler doing 405. The extra 10 years or so of training makes a difference.
OK, enough of this pointless bullshit about "power" cleans.
I admit that I am old school, where a true power clean was caught standing up NOT squatting down. The description, like many others, has been corrupted by those too weak to achieve it correctly.
These corruptors of the language kept going lower and lower to get more weight while still calling it a "power" clean. Yeah, whatever. These are usually the same people whose squat gets higher and higher in order to lift more weight until it is little more than a twitch of the knee followed by a crash of the weights into the rack and then the proud boast of the HUUUUUUGE weight they "squatted". Yeah right, whatever.
New people come into the gym and hear this corrupted usage and then bring it to discussions like these. So right here, right now, let's all resolve never to use the corrupted term "power" ever again in relation to cleans and instead substitute "x degrees" as the adjective.
The Pisarenko clean I described was a 175 degree clean. Now, what was the high school boys?
I have already said, the new school way, and it has been that way is this. If the weight at its lowest point is above parallel it is considered a powerclean, typically this means parallel at 75-85 degrees and normal powercleans being 120 degrees or so. No lifters ever clean to 175-180 degrees these days anyway, they do clean pulls and HIGH squat cleans and normal squat cleans.
Big Macca - I ask again- what event was Nigel Avery in that he placed 9th at Athens? I looked at shot, disc,and hammer and did not see him. I also checked WL. Not there. 500+ clean and jerk would have been 8th in Athens in 105+ kgs. class, higher in lower classes. Maybe he should be a lifter if he is not, unless his country has several others better, which is possible. However, only a handful or so of countries have 3-5 lifters clean and jerking over 500.
I may have missed him in the results; I don't think so. please enlighten me and the readers.
Many throwers I have seen power cleaning didn't have much knee bend on power cleans, but pop their feet out much wider as they catch the bar at the chest, thereby getting lower without a really large bend in the knees.
Rufus - The numbers you mentioned for Rome and Waltz, while high, are not as hard to believe as a high schooler's 405. Indeed, a 428 clean from the hang would not equal a 405 power clean unless the clean from the hang was a power clean from the hang. It may well be that some of the sqauts are a little above parallel.
Can anyone help me find Nigel Avery, who was 9th (according to Big Macca) in Athens? He must be one of the ones who he claims has cleaned over 500. I cannot find him.
Rufus, Big Macca - Thanks for the clarification, Rufus. I think he was 17th. How 9th in Athens becomes 17th in Sydney might be verification that people sometimes get their facts/weights mixed up!Thank you for the information on Rome and Waltz.
It sounds like Nigel Avery is a fine athlete. 210 kgs. (462 lbs.) is a good weight. If the lifter had cleaned 500+ in training, one would normally start much, much higher, assuming that one can jerk close to what one can clean. Also, if one jerks much less than he cleans there would be diminishing value in working on building the clean to 550 if one can only jerk 462, i.e., spend more time on the jerk and don't worry so muuch about the clean.
I am very surprised to find that New Zealand (apparently) has many people cleaning over 500, assuming Big Macca himself has seen several. If their are others cleaning over 500, why were they not in Athens lifting? Maybe some were from other countries. However, it makes one justifiably suspicious when one lists someone as 9th in Athens and it ends up being 17th in Sydney. When one does not know who one is dealing with, or how many people the numbers have come through as passed on, it makes it hard to be sure of their accuracy.
RUFUS - WAS THERE A REASON WHY THE OTHER LIFTERS YOU LISTED WERE THERE?
Again, thanks for the clarification and information, Rufus.
Rufus - Thank you very much. I did not notice the ages. Clearly, I agree and know there are lifters (mostly former Soviet Bloc) that do over 400 as Juniors in the clean and jerk. I believe at the 2005 Jr. worlds the top C&J was 215 kgs. (474 lbs.) This might equal a 407 - 429 power clean, most would say, depending on technique. The outer limit might be 440 if his 474 was caught in a very high squat clean. So, Ryan Whiting can probably power clean around 95%+ of any top 20 and under lifter in the world who specializes in Olympic lifting?!?!
I would also note that there are very few, IF ANY, weightlifting followers who would argue that most top Olympic lifters (medalists, certainly gold medalists), especially those from China and former Eastern Bloc countries, are 100% clean. Maybe even 20% clean.
I once had a former Bulgarian National Coach defect and live with me. He was a former world record holder. He figured maybe a 10% bump on the juice in a relatively short time. Assuming that the 215 c&j were by those juiced, as I do, then it is fair to assume that, off the juice completely, they could not power clean nearly as much as Ryan Whiting, who I assume is clean. This leads me even more to have questions about the 405. Also, if Big Macca had Nigel Avery 9th in Athens instead of 17th in Sydney, I can see why he might believe things more easily than I.
I come on the last day of school, and get my facts totaly screwed up because I have to reply to weightlifter and el toro who obviously seem to have problems believing things. Avery totalled 400. I need not say any more, and I didn;t say there are many 500 plus cleaners.
Big Macca - Maybe some of the other figures were from people on their "last day of school"also, thereby excusing a mistake similar to yours (9th/17th, Athens/Sydney). It is much easier to confuse lbs/kgs. than Athens and Sydney.
IF you looked at my earlier posts I was saying that many lifting huge weights had NOT been 100% clean.
I think even you would agree that if you had been the original source for the Whiting numbers there would be even more doubt on the veracity/accuracy of the numbers now.
Really, to blame the end of school for the 9th/17th & Athens/Sydney mistake seems a little childish. Maybe admit you made a big mistake, maybe even that you try to seem to know more than you do???
Sorry, I have an exam and a weightlifting meet and mess my facts up?
Quit being a pain weightlifter, I gave you the link for Whitings numbers, but you haven't followed that up have you? Because you don't want to. Stop talking about it until you email either Godina's coach at Arizona state or Tony Thompson at long and strong. Until then, kindly go ahead and discredit everything people say.
Big Macca - It was I who started the thread with the belief that many throwers had lifted big weights, especially in the power clean/clean area. I wanted some numbers, even if they were not 100% verified. Some of those quoted I had heard. I personally raised very few questions, even though at least some of the numbers in the thread seem open to question. Many posters qualified their numbers with something indicating these were rumors, etc., unlike your 9th in Athens, which was stated as a fact. I actually spent quite a while trying to find that result.
IT may surprise, you, Big mac, but even in WL there are coaches and lifters who claim weights that competition does not bear out. In other words, what they claim to have lifted in training is at odds with what you see with your own eyes at meets, leading to the (almost inescapable) conclusion that there is some (perhaps significant) element of exaggeration going on. I am sure WL is not unique in that respect. I don't think you apologized for your obvious and serious misstatement. Instead, you cruiticized me for criticizing you and excused your mistake because you were taking finals!!!
I guess maybe as you grow you will learn to be more careful with your words and not to make excuses when you are wrong, and to acknoledge that you might be wrong.
It may be that Ryan Whiting can power clean more than almost all of the top lifters in the world outside of 5-10 countries. I would just have to see it or get better verification to believe it. OF course, you being much younger may be more easily convinced. After all, you were convinced of Nigel Avery's 9th pretty easily.
I should point out that some coaches, especially football coaches, will have a guy do 250 X 8 and extraolate that the guy could have done 325 x 1, for example. So, not all numbers are equal. I am not saying that this is the case with Ryan Whiting at all, but some coaches have done this kind of thing, which does not always bear out.
Bottom line, one has to know the source, the facts, etc. Even then, there can be honest mistakes, such as you made. The chances obviously get greater as the story passes on down the line.
Rufus - I have not. Do you know him? Do you know how to contact him or do you know any others who might verify this? Have you heard of any others who might have seen this?
When Big Macca said in an earlier post that most can do "20-30% more" behind the neck than in front, he clearly does no know what he is talking about. That would mean Reza... the Iranian super - could do 750-800+ behind the neck!! Crazy.
Most can do more behind the neck, it is true. Some can do 10-15% more. Few would do as much as 20%, and probably no lifters I know would do 30% more. If Reza does about 266 and maybe jerks more than he cleans, which is possible (270-285 ?), then that would equal 324-370 kgs. behind the neck. 370 would be about 814 lbs. Not likely.
Is it true your star athlete Ryan Whiting is capable of powercleaning 4 plates? What are his other strength levels? I have heard of a 700lb squat, but obviously a 19 year old boy who has thrown the shot 70 feet is incapable of doing that without being at least 4 inches above parallel.
Big Macca - See your post of Oct. 19. You say lifters can BNJ 20%-30% more than from in front. If Reza has done about 266 C&J, then, if he is like most lifters, he may have done about 5% or so more jerk off rack. So, let's figure 280 jerk off rack. It certainly figures if he can jerk 266 or thereabouts after a clean, then he can do more without having to clean it. I think when he missed his second attempt at the Olympics he missed the clean. I could be wrong on this;it is off the top of my head.
So, 280 jerk and add 25% (midpoint of your numbers) gives you 350 or 770 lbs. If you go 30 % and/or figure his best at 285 or so, you get close to or over 800 lbs.
It is always possible that Whiting's coach is mistaken. Also, 4 plates are only 405 with 45 pound plates. Most lifters would not be lifting with metal plates. Most places with bumper plates tend to have Kgs. plates, from my experience. So, 4 Kgs. bumper plates would be 180 kgs or 396 lbs ASSUMING ALL WERE 20 KGS. PLATES. If they were bumper plates, most places would have put on 25 kgs. plates, anyway if they have them. Or, there could be 3 20's and a 10 kgs. - much less.
I am, as you say, a little sceptical (sic), perhaps even after his COACH'S claims, if he does so. By the way, did you pass your finals? None in spelling or grammar, I hope.