>one of the most explosive throwers ever, Wladyslav Komar (I think thats his
>name) threw 22.06 with a 16lb and his best throw with a 4kg is 29m. Jannus
>Robberts (21.97m with 16lb) "only" got over 27m I think. Give a 4kg shot to a
>hundred 17m male throwers and I can bet the number who can get 29m with the
>womens shot is incredibley low. Flip I doubt Michael Carter could have hit 29m
>with a 4kg.<
Komar never threw anything close to 22.06. His best throw (imperial) was 69-6 or 69-7.
I started this original thread. I thanl all for their posts. I, too, would take some numbers with a grain of salt. Maybe something gets lost in translation, or in conversion from kgs. to lbs., etc.
As far as Godina and 638 bench to the neck, that seems hard to believe, assuming no super-suits, etc. Maybe the difference between the official and the 638 says something.
AS far as Godina cleaning 400 for reps ( I assume power cleans), there are no weightlifters in the US right now who could power clean 400 x 5. There might not be any today who could power clean 400 x 3.
Don't forget there are lots(100s?) of big, strong shotputters doing power cleans and <dozen talented superheavies in the US. It would not be surprising given the numerical disparity that there are shotputters more capable than most or all of the Olympic lifters at power movements. Weightlifting is a declining, fringe sport in the US and you cannot expect that the most talented lifters automatically compete in the sport.
3 USA weightlifters made the world rankings last year at =7,=45 and 97. In shot put the rankings were 1,2,3,4......
The rankings lists aren't directly comparable because the IWF draws performances only from major meets. This actually benefits the USA in the rankings because there are a lot more good lifters in other countries that don't get to lift because of entry limitations, sort of like Kenyans and distance races or USA and sprints in WC and OG.
The numerical disparity is certainly a fact, and I hope no knowledgeable weightlifter or coach would dispute that many top throwers would have or could have been great lifters.
Shane Hamman, former world record holder in powerlifting (squatted 1008!), who can grab the rim with both hands at 5 feet 9 inches and 350+ lbs., might have done 400 x 5 power clean at his peak, maybe not. He would be the US weightlifter most likely to have been able to do so.
The equalizing factor is that lifters work the lifts as an end in themselves, whereas throwers use them as a means to an end. Lifters pull and clean, power clean, snatch/power snatch a couple of times almost every workout, maybe 6-10 workouts per week, in some cases. Throwers may train more, but split time between throwing and lifting, with much more emphasis on upper body work. One would assume that the lifter's technique is significantly better, also.
So, although I would not doubt that there are elite throwers who could power clean 400 x 3 or maybe 5 if they focused only (or even mainly) on that, I would probably guess that John Godina weighing in the high 200's has not donelegitimate power cleans of 400 x 5. I would guess the Iranian superheavy Olympic champion weighing at least 50 - 75 lbs. more than Godina might power clean in the range of 195- 200 kgs. (440 lbs.) x 5, give or take 10 kgs.
Not all power cleans are created equal. A strict power clean to an Olympic lifter would be caught with legs straight but knees unlocked while a thrower might claim anything that got off the ground far enough to get the elbows under for a millisecond before dumping it! Numbers on a page don't tell much without some information on the range and technique.
I acnnot say with accuracy what some throwers might call a power clean, but your description of a "power clean" would certainly not qualify as a power clean, much less a strict power clean. It sounds somewhat of a cross betweeen a power clean and a high pull.
I am puzzled by your explanation of lifters catching on "straight legs" ... with "knees unlocked.'" It sounds like a contradiction to me. How can the legs be straight with "knees unlocked?" Bona fide power cleans (to most) would mean caught above parallel, (perhaps well above parallel) and not "rolled" up the chest. Weights never even caught at the chest and held would not be true power cleans, at least to weightlifters and most strength trainers.
Now, could throwers (such as Godina) do "high pulls" with 400 x 5, and maybe think or feel that they were pulled to chest level where they might have been caught and held (but weren't) or were sort of turned over and dropped...... that is a different story. There would seem to be much more lattitude there as to what a power clean was.
AS I said earlier, 400 x 5 seems awfully heavy. Perhaps a re-defined power clean, depending on who was saying it was pulled high enough..... maybe, maybe not.
That would be 396 lbs. plus. Take kgs., double it (180 x 2 = 360) and add 10% (36). Meters to feet, as many know, is 3 x meters plus 10%. 100 meters x 3 = 100, + 10% = approx. 330 feet. How many reps did he do and did he actually rack the bar at the chest or just pull it to the chest? Sometimes when people do pulls they may pull high and lower the body/dip under slightly, making it seem that the bar was pulled higher because the body has dropped under it slightly.
>That would be 396 lbs. plus. Take kgs., double it (180 x 2 = 360) and add 10%
>(36). Meters to feet, as many know, is 3 x meters plus 10%. 100 meters x 3 =
>100, + 10% = approx. 330 feet. How
>many reps did he do and did he actually rack the bar at the chest or just
>t pull it to the chest? Sometimes when people do pulls they may pull high and
>lower the body/dip under slightly, making it seem that the bar was pulled
>higher because the body has dropped under it slightly.
He did somewhere between 3 and 5 reps. Brought the weight off the ground in a high pull fashion, dropped under the weight, caught it in a front squat position, stood, then dropped the weight.
That is pretty good. It sounds like it was a clean as opposed to a power clean, meaning he dropped under it (below parallel). Even 396 x 3 is good, but much easier to believe than 400 x 5 POWER CLEAN.
Some throwers power clean/power snatch, while others go under the weights in (squat) cleans and (full/(squat) snatches.
I would guess we had a half-dozen or less lifters who might do 396 x 3 cleans. Some can clean more than they can jerk. Maybe 1 - 3 who could clean 396 x 5, none that could power clean it x 5 right now.
Looks like we are getting closer to it but we still don't know exactly at what height he caught it. Again some people define a power clean as anything caught higher than "butt to heels"!
weightlifter, I'm sorry that my description of legs straight but unlocked caused confusion. It is not really contradictory. Firstly, nobody in their right mind would catch a weight with knees locked - at least not if they love their collar bones and spine! Secondly, I was trying to differentiate between maximal functional height and the many indeterminate lower positions (120deg, 90deg, 60deg) that seem to qualify as "power" positions to various people.
So how best to describe both elements? Straight as possible, standing at your fullest height without having your knees locked so that there is some capacity for the legs to act as shock absorbers AFTER you catch the weight. So maybe not 180deg but 178? It sure is easier to just show somebody!
Eldrick - In a clean, be it power or squat, the bar ceratinly never goes over the head. That would be a clean and jerk that you are talking about Lara doing. Of course he would also have done a squat clean.
I don't need any video to know that a clean does not go overhead. IF you think a clean goes overhead and must be held for a down signal and be under control, then you don't understand that cleans are not a competition lift in the Olympics or any international competitions. Pablo Lara did not compete in "clean" competitions. Nor, for that matter, are they the subject of any national competitions in the US.Also, there are no "green lights" in weightlifting. White lights are good, red lights are not good, 2-1 prevails.
Have you ever attended any weightlifting competitions?
How strange for eldrick to go off on a tangent on something he knows nothing about... Of course weightlifter is right. This thread is only about the C of C&J.
Tell you what, eldrick, if you don't think a couple of degrees make any difference, jump down from a foot high box and land with you knees very slightly bent. See,no problem, shock absorbed. Now try it again with your knees locked. No need to report back on the outcome, I have the image already in my brain...
Shotputters are well knwon to have huge cleans. Ryan Whiting, latest 70 footer in HS in America said first hand that he has powercleaned 405lbs, and he is just 19 now. Trust me, most putters are stronger than their own countries olympic lifters, after Shane Hamman, that would be the case in the USA. Ulf Timmerman said on the ring that Sergei Smirnov clean and jerked 230kg. I'm still in High School and have 145kg.
Eldrick, Lara was an awesome physical specimen, trust me, his form was not exactly great, ESPECIALLY on powercleans, still awe inspiring.
Big Macca - 405 would be a very impressive power clean for any thrower. For a high school thrower, it would stretch credulity a little for me. When Al Fuerbach (ranked # 1 in the world in 1974) won the Sr. National WL Championships in 1974 he clean and jerked 418. This was a squat clean; he had pretty good technique. I saw him compete several times. I think he was throwing close to 70 feet then.
Sam Walker, who, I think, threw a little farther than Ryan Whiting in high school, made the Olympic WL team some years later and (squat) cleaned and jerked 462 at the Olympic Trials. This might equal about 400 - 420 power clean for most. It should also be remembered that this was a different era, also.
Shane Hamman, right now, at 350+ and with 10- 15 years of weight training, most at a high level of either power or Olympic lifting, could probably power cleean 410-425 (give or take 3-5%). HE squatted 1008 in competition.
There are no 20 and under weightlifters in the US competing who can power clean CLOSE to 405. In fact, there may never have been any.
All of this does not mean it did not happen. It does mean that one might be a little bit skeptical. Many, many times in my life I have seen weights misloaded or miscalculated, especially when kgs. are involved.
ON its face, it would seem diificult to think that a high schooler with, assumedly, poorer technique, out power cleaned world # 1 ranked Fuerbach, and was right there with Walker and Hamman today( - he did 476 c&j 2 1/2 weeks ago), both Olympians with many, many more years of training with weights, and fairly good technique.
IF you are in high school, maybe you should think about giving O-lifting a try. If you reach 150 - 155 or more power clean x 2 or 3 in high school, maybe you could work the jerk and snatch and make our Jr. world team which goes to China next year, I think, after S. Korea this year.
Weightlifter, I know it sounds hard to believe, I'm sure if you can get hold of Ryan he would confirm it. He was asked by a few guys at Outdoor nationals and he said 405 with a 700 squat. I have no problem believing that.
I have just started weightlifting this year in the winter, problem is I don't live in the USA
Thank you, Big Macca. I would question the 700 (parallel or below) squat even more. It may well be that he has stated that he power cleans 405 or more. Although I am not from Missouri, he would have to show me both the 405 and the 700.
I can remember once reading in Sporting News about a high school guy weighing in the 160's benching around 500. I told them that was above the world record. Their response was, "Well, that is what he told us."
I am sure he can do big weights. Although I am not from Missouri, he would have to show me. If he can do that much now, one would think he will do 450 - 500 power clean (or more) after 4-5 years of training in college, and maybe squat 850- 1,000. Post -collegiate - maybe 500-550 power clean and 1000+ squat. Then,if he does not make the Olympic team throwing, he can always make the Olympic team as a lifter if he can jerk what he can power clean or more. Maybe he could even make both teams as Gary Gubner almost did.
Well, I am from Missouri, or if you have lived there for a few years, Misery....and I think that a 400 clean is not out of the question......I was an average thrower (58/189) and I had a power clean best of 320 lbs....no wrist wraps....my teammate, Ernie Poole from Sedalia, MO, cleaned 350 with wraps.....so 400+ for a great thrower does not seem too out of line......
Again, we are talking about a 405 POWER CLEAN by someone in high school. The % difference between a 350 (squat) clean and a 405 power clean is the difference between a 50 foot high school women's throw and a 65 foot throw. A 350 clean equals about a 300 - 310 power clean. Or, a 160 high school women's discus discus throw and a 210 throw. Big, big difference.
As I said, there has never been a 20 and under weightlifting competitor in the US who could power clean 405, to my knowledge. It is possible that he can, with less training and (assumedly) poorer technique, out power clean any 20 and under lifter ever in USA history, and possibly by 5%- 10%. I would just have to see it. There are hundreds of runners have run a 10.5 or under 100 meters. Drop down 15% to 9.75 or below and look at the difference. See my earlier posts re: Fuerbach and Walker.
Ryan Whiting is from PA and being so well know, I doubt he would lie about his lifts. I know another HS putter who has 60 feet who can do 675 on squat.Jimmy Pacifico has thrown 62 and he's 16-17 and has a 700 PL squat. Trust me, the olympic lifters really aren't the strongest guys in the olympic lifts as we think. www.longandstrong.com , Ryans coaches email is on there and I'm sure he'll be willing to confirm his lifts.
As I said, if I can clean 320 and throw the 11lb ball just over 60, and seeing Whitings form (no offense but it could be better), its not hard to believe such numbers for a 70 foot 12lb putter.
Of course you don't seem to want to believe that. There ARE freaks out there that don't oly lift competitively and lift huge.
Big Macca - Have any of these lifters done their squats in competition? As far as what is parallel (or below), just because a lifter or a coach says it is doesn't make it so. If you think so, what about the 40 times some coaches put out?
However, I thank you for your thoughts.