Max Schmelling dies


A place for the discussion of all things not closely related to the sport and its competitive side. (as always, locked for the duration of major international championship)

Max Schmelling dies

Postby Pego » Fri Feb 04, 2005 4:32 pm

...a few months short of the 100th birthday. Obviously a boxer, not an T&F athlete, but many visitors to this site are sport fans in general.
Pego
 
Posts: 10198
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: beyond help

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby marknhj » Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:20 pm

I was surprised to learn he was still alive - when did he beat Joe Louis, the 1930's?
marknhj
 
Posts: 5070
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby eldrick » Fri Feb 04, 2005 5:32 pm

>I was surprised to learn he was still alive - when did he beat Joe Louis, the
>1930's?<

knocked him out in an eliminator in '36

max's camp saw a flaw in joe's style ( ? accredited to jack johnson who advised max's camp ) in which they saw that

joe dropped his left hand when he threw his right

this isn't exactly e = mc^2

& it's a wonder that a slow, methodical guy like joe, didn't get whupped a few more times...
eldrick
 
Posts: 14147
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: 19th hole st andrews

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby BillVol » Fri Feb 04, 2005 8:51 pm

Agree with mark. I never imagined he was still alive! Wow!
BillVol
 
Posts: 3759
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: Chattanooga

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby gh » Fri Feb 04, 2005 9:21 pm

<<& it's a wonder that a slow, methodical
>guy like joe, didn't get whupped a few more times...>

Joe Louis "slow"?! He was renowned for his hand speed!
gh
 
Posts: 46323
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby Per Andersen » Sat Feb 05, 2005 1:02 am

Louis had a deceptive style and could appear slow but he punched with terrific speed and power. James Braddock (the Cinderella Man) was the champ at the time of the first Louis-Schmeling fight in '36.
Per Andersen
 
Posts: 3736
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby MJD » Sat Feb 05, 2005 2:19 am

>I was surprised to learn he was still alive - when did he beat Joe Louis, the
>1930's?

38 I think.
MJD
 
Posts: 13402
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby eldrick » Sat Feb 05, 2005 3:25 am

><<& it's a wonder that a slow, methodical
>guy like joe, didn't get whupped a
>few more times...>

Joe Louis "slow"?! He was renowned for his hand
>speed!<

the videos show his hand speed was exceptional but his footspeed was abominable

looking at today's heavyweights - chris byrd is a pathetic champion - he's got more run in him than wiley coyote's intended dinner, but i doubt very much louis would have layed a glove on a guy like this
eldrick
 
Posts: 14147
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: 19th hole st andrews

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby Per Andersen » Sat Feb 05, 2005 11:47 pm

Yeah, but you just cannot compare eras. Look at the pictures of these guys. Both Louis and Schmeling look pretty spindly. After Jack Johnson and Ali I still will prabably rank Louis 3rd. Certainly ahead of Marciano who just fought old men and punks after he became Champ back in '51.
Per Andersen
 
Posts: 3736
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby eldrick » Sun Feb 06, 2005 1:25 am

>Yeah, but you just cannot compare eras. Look at the pictures of these guys.
>Both Louis and Schmeling look pretty spindly. After Jack Johnson and Ali I
>still will prabably rank Louis 3rd. Certainly ahead of Marciano who just fought
>old men and punks after he became Champ back in '51.<

not sure how jack johnson gets you're no.1

he was a good defensive boxer & could punch, but they fought for about 30s/round & wrestled for the rest

the modern giants would have crushed him

as for the Rock - i wouldn't go there - too much emotion involved

however, i do agree, i can't see how it is actually possible for a 5'10, 185 pound guy to be any threat whatsoever against the modern giants of 6'3 & 215+ ( & now 6'5+ & 235+ ), who can not only hit like a torpedo, but have great chins - look at foreman,holmes,bowe,lennox,vitali...
eldrick
 
Posts: 14147
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: 19th hole st andrews

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby FrankS » Sun Feb 06, 2005 6:14 am

Bit of trivia! Who is now the oldest - living - ex-heavyweight champ?
FrankS
 
Posts: 409
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby doug0914 » Sun Feb 06, 2005 7:44 am

is it ingemar johanson of sweden?
doug0914
 
Posts: 373
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby runforlife » Sun Feb 06, 2005 2:40 pm

>>not sure how jack johnson gets you're no.1

He was generally considered the greatest until Ali.
There was a special about him on PBS about a month ago. A great outstanding athlete.

True, who knew that Max was still alive? Not I!
runforlife
 
Posts: 387
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Drake Relays: finish line - row 1

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby Per Andersen » Sun Feb 06, 2005 9:03 pm

Oldest ex-champ? Is Ezzard Charles dead? If he is, it is probably Ingo. Yes, I saw the PBS Ken Burns thing about Johnson. The man actually had a "modern" body unlike anybody who came after him. The way he knocked out Stanley Ketchel was absolutely stunning, what a feat of athleticism.
Per Andersen
 
Posts: 3736
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby paulthefan » Mon Feb 07, 2005 9:18 am

Joe Louis slow ?.. what are you watching.. he was lightening quick, could knock out anyone with either hand within less than a foot.. that is pure power and speed.... It was only because of his fighting style and the sound defense that he employed that folks think he was slow. There is no need to hop and skip around the ring if you have complete confidence in your ability to deflect your opponents punches.

As for the smaller guys like marciano.. the smaller frame can be highly effective if coupled
with tremendous leg strength and explosiveness..
Think Langford, McVey, Dempsey, Marciano, Frazier.. all of these could take down the best of any era... and all of them did.

Some of the heavyweights could have made great track guys.. I could see Ali or Johnson as greats in the Decathalon or the Discus for sure.

As for Schmeling.. he was really a light heavyweight in frame.. may we remember him for
the good he did and not for the manipulation that
was made of him.
Last edited by paulthefan on Mon Feb 07, 2005 9:53 am, edited 1 time in total.
paulthefan
 
Posts: 5034
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Location, Location.

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby eldrick » Mon Feb 07, 2005 10:45 am

>Joe Louis slow ?.. what are you watching.. he was lightening quick, could knock
>out anyone with either hand within less than a foot.. that is pure power and
>speed.... It was only because of his fighting style and the sound defense that
>he employed that folks think he was slow. There is no need to hop and skip
>around the ring if you have complete confidence in your ability to deflect your
>opponents punches.

As for the smaller guys like marciano.. the smaller
>frame can be highly effective if coupled
with tremendous leg strength and
>explosiveness..
Think Langford, McVey, Dempsey, Marciano, Frazier.. all of
>these could take down the best of any era... and all of them did.

Some of
>the heavyweights could have made great track guys.. I could see Ali or Johnson
>as greats in the Decathalon or the Discus for sure.

As for Schmeling.. he
>was really a light heavyweight in frame.. may we remember him for
the good he
>did and not for the manipulation that
was made of him<

louis may have been fast within range of an opponent, but he would have been punching air for 15 rounds if he'd tried to chase an ali ( or possibly even a chris byrd around)

as for those "lil" heavyweights you mention - langford,dempsey,marciano never weighed more than 185 ( joe was a "division" bigger at 200 pounds ) - i can't make any case for them for against the modern giants - don't forget how hard the giants punch - if foreman,holmes,bowe,lewis,klitschko landed with their R hand on the button, what do you think was going to happen ?
eldrick
 
Posts: 14147
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: 19th hole st andrews

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby eldrick » Mon Feb 07, 2005 10:47 am

>Oldest ex-champ? Is Ezzard Charles dead? If he is, it is probably Ingo<

jeez, ezzard charles died in '75 !
eldrick
 
Posts: 14147
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: 19th hole st andrews

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby paulthefan » Mon Feb 07, 2005 11:47 am

Dempsey weighed between 188 and 195. Marciano was over 185lbs. Truth be told, Frazier was shorter than Dempsey probably shorter than Marciano. No doubt if Dempsey, Langford or Marciano were fighting today they would weigh much more to meet the different fighting styles and opponents they would face.

Just to assess the biases that people have in judging fighters.. ask yourself this question..
if you saw a picture of a Frazier frame/physique/dimensions... and were told that he was a fighter from the early 40s.. or say 20s .. it doesnt matter (5'10" 205 lbs) and were asked
how he would fair against Ali/Holmes/Lewis at his best what would you say.. if you are an honest man you would say that a 5'10" fighter from the 40s would get punched out of the ring in no time against any heavyweight of the last few decades....

Unfortunately for the theory, that same smokn joe frazier punched the best out the ring in his prime in the late 60s and early 70s.. the same era that some (mistakenly in my opinion) claim as the greatest era of the heavyweights... judging fighters by appearance is wrought with peril.. Smaller fighters can be highly effective.. unfortunately they seldom have long careers.. the athleticism required is extraordinary and short lived.

Recall the shock and awe that we witnessed when Mike Tyson at under 5'11" and about 210, punched men 6'4" out of the ring inside of 1 round... to recall the last time we saw that you would have to go back to the Dempsey - Willard fight.


If the big man lands the perfect punch it is lights out for sure.. but remember the smaller fighters typically have much more agility and dexterity that allows them to slip punches effortlessly, Dempseys style has been reproduced by all the great small men with big punch. It is a forebearer of the Frazier style. Do yourself a favor and watch the Dempsey - Willard fight.
Last edited by paulthefan on Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
paulthefan
 
Posts: 5034
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Location, Location.

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby gh » Mon Feb 07, 2005 12:18 pm

"giant" heavyweights tumbled years ago, they'd tumble now. See Primo Carnera.
gh
 
Posts: 46323
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: firmly at Arya's side!

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby paulthefan » Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:00 pm

Great point about Primo, He was not only big at 6'5" 250lbs .. he was an Adonis of muscle packed on top of muscle and strong as strong can be. He was not completely untrained as a boxer either.

The 6'2" 198 lb Max Baer took him out.....

Which raises trivia question number 2:
Who was the referee in that fight?



>"giant" heavyweights tumbled years ago, they'd tumble now. See Primo Carnera.
Last edited by paulthefan on Mon Feb 07, 2005 2:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
paulthefan
 
Posts: 5034
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Location, Location.

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby paulthefan » Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:02 pm

Stanley Ketchel was a middle weight, and one of the best, the Johnson-Ketchel fight was to be $$ maker and so as not to hurt the small and game fellow it was decided that the fight would go the distance.. Ketchel unfortunately got "weird" and struck Johnson with a hard punch that knocked him down.. Johnson got up and almost killed the little man.

A modern body? ..



>Oldest ex-champ? Is Ezzard Charles dead? If he is, it is probably Ingo. Yes,
>I saw the PBS Ken Burns thing about Johnson. The man actually had a "modern"
>body unlike anybody who came after him. The way he knocked out Stanley Ketchel
>was absolutely stunning, what a feat of athleticism.
paulthefan
 
Posts: 5034
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Location, Location.

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby eldrick » Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:09 pm

>Dempsey weighed between 188 and 195. Marciano was over 185lbs. Truth be told,
>Frazier was shorter than Dempsey probably shorter than Marciano. No doubt if
>Dempsey, Langford or Marciano were fighting today they would weigh much more to
>meet the different fighting styles and opponents they would face.

Just to
>assess the biases that people have in judging fighters.. ask yourself this
>question..
if you saw a picture of a Frazier frame/physique/dimensions...
>and were told that he was a fighter from the early 40s.. or say 20s .. it
>doesnt matter (5'10" 205 lbs) and were asked
how he would fair against
>Ali/Holmes/Lewis at his best what would you say.. if you are an honest man you
>would say that a 5'10" fighter from the 40s would get punched out of the ring
>in no time against any heavyweight of the last few
>decades....

Unfortunately that same smokn joe frazier punched the best out
>the ring in his prime in the late 60s and early 70s.. the same era that some
>(mistakenly in my opinion) claim as the greatest era of the heavyweights...
>judging fighters by appearance is wrought with peril.. Smaller fighters can be
>highly effective.. unfortunately they seldom have long careers.. the
>athleticism required is extraordinary and short lived.

Recall the shock and
>awe that we witnessed when Mike Tyson at under 5'11" and about 210, punched
>men 6'4" out of the ring inside of 1 round... to recall the last time we saw
>that you would have to go back to the Dempsey - Willard fight.


If the big
>man lands the perfect punch it is lights out for sure.. but remember the
>smaller fighters typically have much more agility and dexterity that allows
>them to slip punches effortlessly, Dempseys style has been reproduced by all
>the great small men with big punch. It is a forebearer of the Frazier style.
>Do yourself a favor and watch the Dempsey - Willard fight.

marciano's peak fighting weight was 185

he tried to come in heavier at 190, but he said he felt "sluggish" with just this extra weight & always came in at 185 after

as for these midgets weighing more - well, they were 5'10 at best & none of them had a bull-frame like frazier & tyson - i can't see what good it would have done them - remember the old adage:

You can't put muscle on your chin !

as for frazier, he was a step up in wt. from these guyz at 200+ - but look at what happened to him when he came up against a big-punching giant in foreman !

not just once, but foreman cremated him twice for good measure !

now, the likes of bowe,lennox & vitali probably punch even harder than foreman ( prime he was 6'4 & 220 - these guyz 6'5+ & 235+ )

tyson did well,because despite being a 5'10 guy, he was 220 (NOT 210) of solid muscle ( weighed 221 when he won the title at 20 against berbick ) - the 6'3 guyz of the late '80's were also ~ 220 when fit - so tyson was not giving away anything in strength or muscle - just height, but his swarming,deceptively hard-to-hit style negated their height advantages, so he could get in close & hit with as much force as any of the big guyz
eldrick
 
Posts: 14147
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: 19th hole st andrews

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby eldrick » Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:13 pm

>"giant" heavyweights tumbled years ago, they'd tumble now. See Primo Carnera<

we are talking giants with some skill !

reminds me of the quote a few years ago when frank bruno was fighting in vegas & 2 guys were walking into caesar's palace & they stopped to admire the magnificent statue of David outside the arena

one guy goes:

"what a magnifenct carving - he reminds me of bruno"

to which his friend uttered the immortal riposte:

"yeah, but the statue moves quicker !"
Last edited by eldrick on Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
eldrick
 
Posts: 14147
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: 19th hole st andrews

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby paulthefan » Mon Feb 07, 2005 3:23 pm

Bruno was a very good fighter and had good athleticism.. dont know what the heck you are talking about..

As for Frazier I dont think his chest size would measure much bigger than Marcianos, nor his arm size.. though he had a slightly larger reach. In the legs their strongest asset, they were very similar.. I dont know that Marciano today would not be a 210lb heavyweight today.. different training regimes today... though yes I would guess that he would be a better fit in the cruiser weight division..

Of course Evander Holyfield, Michael Spinks, Floyd Patterson, Tunney and Langford, McVey, Fitzsimmons all had success as heavyweights though they all were natural lightheavys.

Back to Frazier and his fight with Foreman, yes he did not match up well with Foreman. but he matched up supremely with Ali... some styles work well against others.. some do not. Ali had trouble with the Norton and Frazier styles. It had little to do with an inadequacy of size.
Last edited by paulthefan on Mon Feb 07, 2005 4:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
paulthefan
 
Posts: 5034
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Location, Location.

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby marknhj » Mon Feb 07, 2005 4:25 pm

>Bruno was a very good fighter and had good athleticism.. dont know what the
>heck you are talking about..

>>>

Huh? Even us Brits regarded him as a bit of a joke. Became hugely popular because his loveable image, even appeared in pantomime every Christmas. Image took something of a dive when he turned out to be a wife beater. I suspected Tyson was about to wack him when walked to the ring and crossed himself about 50 times. My American friends were in hysterics, never seen a guy going into the ring so obviously terrifed.
marknhj
 
Posts: 5070
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby paulthefan » Mon Feb 07, 2005 4:53 pm

Bruno had some very good fights.. I dont recall the particulars... I never said he was champion material.. but he was a good fighter, I guess I just appreciate the contenders out there. They make every sport a great sport, without them there are no champions...

Americans and brits judge fighters much more harshly than they do any of their other athletes.. if a footballer or a basketballer has a bad night we give them the benefit of a doubt no bid deal.. if I fighter tanks.. we call him a "bum"... strange indeed.


Regarding Tyson, he stood under 5'11" fought at his best under 220 and had a marciano-eque 71 inch reach.. we have very short memory.. recall that before he stomped through the heavyweight ranks most folks thought that the age of the sub 6'2" heavyweights were long gone.

Check out McVey from the 1910s
http://coxscorner.tripod.com/mcvey.html
Last edited by paulthefan on Mon Feb 07, 2005 5:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.
paulthefan
 
Posts: 5034
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Location, Location.

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby Per Andersen » Mon Feb 07, 2005 5:43 pm

By "modern body" I meant the guy had a muscle development unlike any of the great ones of that era. He looked like somebody who had spent time the weight room. I know Ketchel was a middle weight but it was the way Johnson did it that was amazing. He just got off the floor and in one motion just knocked him out. But again you guys are comparing eras. Study Jack Johnson's career and see what he had to got through to get a title shot and the conditions he lived through.
Per Andersen
 
Posts: 3736
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby Track fan » Mon Feb 07, 2005 6:05 pm

Does anybody think that Jessie Owens could beat any top sprinter of recent times(or fairly recent)? Same argument for Dempsey or Louis beating a Lewis or Vitali. Moderning training methods combined with drugs has created a far superior athlete.
Track fan
 
Posts: 1335
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby eldrick » Mon Feb 07, 2005 11:51 pm

>Bruno was a very good fighter and had good athleticism.. dont know what the
>heck you are talking about..<

marco has explained this very well

bruno was a joke

in fact vegas had a the statue a 1/10 favorite if he'd ever fought bruno

>As for Frazier I dont think his chest size
>would measure much bigger than Marcianos, nor his arm size.. though he had a
>slightly larger reach. In the legs their strongest asset, they were very
>similar..<

ehh?

same this, same that...

then how come frazier weighed 200 & marciano 185 ???

>I dont know that Marciano today would not be a 210lb heavyweight
>today..<

if he felt a sluggish when coming in at a few pounds over 185, what kinda condition would he have felt at 210 ?

don't forget, marciano was the hardest training heavyweight we've probably ever seen ( if he had wanted to bulk up in the '50's, he would have had no problem doing so ) - if 185 was what he felt was his best fighting weight, then i don't see why he would have come in at 210 - he would probably have been virtually immobile


>Back to Frazier and his fight with Foreman, yes he did not
>match up well with Foreman. but he matched up supremely with Ali... some styles
>work well against others.. some do not<

i'm talking about the modern,HARD-PUNCHING giants

foreman,bowe,lewis,klitschko are, ali wasn't

first heavy puncher frazier fought he got slaughtered - it would have been no different against the others in that list

>Ali had trouble with the Norton and
>Frazier styles. It had little to do with an inadequacy of size.<

norton was a severely under-rated fighter - his fight against holmes for the vacant WBC title in '78 was IMHO the 2nd best heavyweight fight of the '70's - i reckon he got robbed against holmes & i would certainly say that at his peak, he was as good a fighter as holmes ever was

as for frazier, it's obvious ali never had the punching power to fend frazier off - unlike a "real" puncher like foreman
eldrick
 
Posts: 14147
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: 19th hole st andrews

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby FrankS » Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:08 am

Bruno was an enigma. Apart from Tyson, everyone who got in the ring with him was frightened of his power. Lennox Lewis didn't like Bruno's power and was way behind on points when he landed the big one. Bruno's big problem, of course, was his inability to recover from being hit with a big punch.
FrankS
 
Posts: 409
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby Pego » Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:43 am

<norton was a severely under-rated fighter>

I agree. IMO Norton was a better boxer than the likes of Holmes, Bowe or Lewis.
Pego
 
Posts: 10198
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: beyond help

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby paulthefan » Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:55 am

You should study boxing a little more, Jeffries (champ from 1899 to 1905) had a far more formidable physique (in 1900 he was 6'2" and 218lbs) than Johnson. .. and please dont bring up the Jeffries Johnson fight of 1915 when Jeffries came out of a 5 year retirement at 300lbs and at age 36 to face the young Johnson in Reno....

Nevertheless I too rate Johnson as one of the top Heavyweight and probably forced to pick Id say the best. He had great offensive skill, was a master of defensive much like Holmes only with much better feet than Holmes.

He actually lived quite large and had an iron constitution much like all heavyweight champs do.



>By "modern body" I meant the guy had a muscle development unlike any of the
>great ones of that era. He looked like somebody who had spent time the weight
Last edited by paulthefan on Tue Feb 08, 2005 5:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
paulthefan
 
Posts: 5034
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Location, Location.

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby paulthefan » Tue Feb 08, 2005 6:08 am

Jesse would be make it to the final for sure...



>Does anybody think that Jessie Owens could beat any top sprinter of recent
>times(or fairly recent)? Same argument for Dempsey or Louis beating a Lewis or
>Vitali. Moderning training methods combined with drugs has created a far
>superior athlete.
paulthefan
 
Posts: 5034
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Location, Location.

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby paulthefan » Tue Feb 08, 2005 6:33 am

>marco has explained this very well
>bruno was a joke

Im sure among the teenage know-it-all beer swillers, bar hopper and self styled tough-guys he was quite the joke.


>As for Frazier I dont think his chest size
>would
>measure much bigger than Marcianos, nor his arm size.. though he had
>a
>slightly larger reach. In the legs their strongest asset, they were
>very
>similar..<

ehh?

same this, same that...

then how come frazier
>weighed 200 & marciano 185 ???

Fighters train to fight the fighters they fight. Marciano was a 215lb individual.. you make yourself what is necessary to win the fight. He was fighting guys 6 to 6'2" who were 200 -210lbs.. He determined he would be most effective at 188.

Frasier trained to fight guys a little bigger. .. George Foreman was under 220 to fight Ali, when he came back to fight bigger guys he chose to weigh near 240.


>I dont know that Marciano today would not be
>a 210lb heavyweight
>today..<

if he felt a sluggish when coming in at a few
>pounds over 185, what kinda condition would he have felt at 210 ?

Today he might choose to be 210... with todays training and methods that is my guess..

Im not here trying to defend Marciano or claim he was the greatest heavyweight.. I do see him has a cruiserweight, that 188 is not the size to be at as a heavyweight.. but lightheavys and cruisers can step up to take the heavyweight title and he did just that.


don't
>forget, marciano was the hardest training heavyweight we've probably ever seen
>( if he had wanted to bulk up in the '50's, he would have had no problem doing
>so ) - if 185 was what he felt was his best fighting weight, then i don't see
>why he would have come in at 210 - he would probably have been virtually
>immobile


I have no reason to beleive that he was the hardest training heavyweight.. I have never heard that from any boxing historian, Nat Fleicher does not mention that to the best of my knowledge, dont know where you got that from... But I have total respect for a guy who at 185lbs can knock out the best heavyweights over 200lbs .. that certainly moves Mariano up in my estimation of his ability and rank. I would rate him as a poundforpound great. I would not put him as one of the top 6 heavyweights.

If you have made up your mind that bigger is better and that being born in the last 30 yearsmakes you better .. then there is nothing I can say to change your mind...

i'm talking about the
>modern,HARD-PUNCHING giants
foreman,bowe,lewis,klitschko are, ali
>wasn't
first heavy puncher frazier fought he got slaughtered - it would have
>been no different against the others in that list
>Ali had trouble with the
>Norton and
>Frazier styles. It had little to do with an inadequacy of
>size.<


Oh.. I forgot that these modern big guys hit MUCH HARDER than the older hard hitting big guy... thanks for clarifying that.

lets face it you start with the axiom that newer is better and bigger is better. No effort need be made to calibrate across decades. Most of the modern guys have much better training and technology and information ... how hard would Jess willard have hit if he were in a modern training camp today?.. he would kill people .. oh .. wait...I forgot ...he did actually kill a man.

Mike Tyson was under 5'11" and took out the biggest and most well trained modern big men.... and did it with a 71" reach.


>norton was a severely under-rated fighter -

no not at all .. most people that know something
about boxing recognize Norton as a great.


as for frazier, it's
>obvious ali never had the punching power to fend frazier off - unlike a
>"real" puncher like foreman

which is just saying that foreman matched up well agains frazier and Ali did not... thanks for agreeing..


Also keep in mind that smaller fighters like Frazier have a much shorter time window to be at their best. In that time window a great small fighter is one dangerous package. outside of that window he is in peril. He fought Foreman just outside of that window. He fought Ali the first time just inside that window.
Last edited by paulthefan on Tue Feb 08, 2005 9:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
paulthefan
 
Posts: 5034
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Location, Location.

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby einnod23 » Tue Feb 08, 2005 8:08 am

>Great point about Primo, He was not only big at 6'5" 250lbs .. he was an
>Adonis of muscle packed on top of muscle and strong as strong can be. He was
>not completely untrained as a boxer either.

The 6'2" 198 lb Max Baer took
>him out.....

Which raises trivia question number 2:
Who was the referee
>in that fight?



>"giant" heavyweights tumbled years ago, they'd tumble
>now. See Primo Carnera.

Primo = The Michael Grant of his era, but w/a bit more heart?
einnod23
 
Posts: 1125
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Bronx, NY

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby einnod23 » Tue Feb 08, 2005 8:10 am

For those who think Joe Louis was slow, I would love to get all of you in a time machine to 1935, get in ring w/Joe and see how slow he was!!!!!!!!

And for all of you who think Chris Byrd would beat Joe Louis.............no comment!!!!!!
einnod23
 
Posts: 1125
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Bronx, NY

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby paulthefan » Tue Feb 08, 2005 9:17 am

You are so correct, people that disparage Joe Louis only expose themselves as totally uninformed... He actually fought in a very competitive era of boxing.. the country was filled with men at the bottom, and the economy was in a depression. There were many talented fighters.

Joe Louis rose to the top of the heap. He was recognized at a young age as having incredible promise after clearing through the Detroit regions talented heavyweight ranks.

Stronly recommend Nat Fliechers books for a perspective across the decades.




>For those who think Joe Louis was slow, I would love to get all of you in a
>time machine to 1935, get in ring w/Joe and see how slow he was!!!!!!!!

And
>for all of you who think Chris Byrd would beat Joe Louis.............no
>comment!!!!!!
Last edited by paulthefan on Tue Feb 08, 2005 9:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
paulthefan
 
Posts: 5034
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Location, Location.

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby einnod23 » Tue Feb 08, 2005 10:27 am

May I ask a question?

Has slow hand speed ever cracked someone's C7 vertebrae?
einnod23
 
Posts: 1125
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Bronx, NY

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby eldrick » Tue Feb 08, 2005 11:31 am

>For those who think Joe Louis was slow, I would love to get all of you in a
>time machine to 1935, get in ring w/Joe and see how slow he was!!!!!!!!

And
>for all of you who think Chris Byrd would beat Joe Louis.............no
>comment!!!!!!<

if you read the posts properly, you will see no one questioned his hand speed ( or punching power ), just that his footwork was slow

in the modern era of some quick,slick boxers, he would have had immense difficulty in pinning down these guys to land his exceptionally hard punches

all i'm saying is that if he fought in the modern era, he would have been on the wrong end of a lot of decisions where he was the aggressor, but lost to a slickster who stuck & moved for the full distance
eldrick
 
Posts: 14147
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: 19th hole st andrews

Re: Max Schmelling dies

Postby eldrick » Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:07 pm

>>marco has explained this very well
>bruno was a joke

Im sure among the
>teenage know-it-all beer swillers, bar hopper and self styled tough-guys he was
>quite the joke<

well you better find some guyz who fit that description & ask them

i saw many of bruno's fights ( early career on) & i've got his fights against boncrusher,witherspoon,both tyson ones & mcall on tape & watched them all a good few times over the years -


>As for Frazier I dont think his chest
>size
>would
>measure much bigger than Marcianos, nor his arm size.. though he
>had
>a
>slightly larger reach. In the legs their strongest asset, they
>were
>very
>similar..

ehh?

same this, same that...

then how come
>frazier
>weighed 200 & marciano 185 ???

Fighters train to fight the
>fighters they fight. Marciano was a 215lb individual..<

ehh?

sat on his recliner for 6 months & slobbing on cheeseburgers,tortilla chips,ben & jerry's & coupla 6 packs/day & he may have had a "natural" walking around weight of 215

you make yourself what
>is necessary to win the fight. He was fighting guys 6 to 6'2" who were 200
>-210lbs..

well he defended against charles - blown up light-heavy (albeit ex-heavy champ), archie - actually a light-heavy, cockell - a fat light-heavy

the only one who may have been an actual conditioned 200 - 210 may have been lastarza, but you'll have to look him up

>Frasier trained
>to fight guys a little bigger. .. George Foreman was under 220 to fight Ali,
>when he came back to fight bigger guys he chose to weigh near 240<

"chose"

that's a good way of putting it

how about another way - he came back after over 10y,as a middle-aged slob who's only possible way of seeing 220 again was if they cut one of his legs off


>I dont
>know that Marciano today would not be
>a 210lb heavyweight
>today..<

if he
>felt a sluggish when coming in at a few
>pounds over 185, what kinda condition
>would he have felt at 210 ?

>I have no reason to beleive that
>he was the hardest training heavyweight.. I have never heard that from any
>boxing historian, Nat Fleicher does not mention that to the best of my
>knowledge, dont know where you got that from...<

yeah, well nat fleischer weren't his trainer & didn't spend each & every day in the gym with him

i'll take the word of charley goldman & goody & pat petronelli - those brothers KNOW how to train a super-fit fighter

i suggest you get some more books than just nat fleischer's one - he died in about '72 & is thus of limited use in discussing fighters after that date

>Oh.. I forgot
>that these modern big guys hit MUCH HARDER than the older hard hitting big
>guy... thanks for clarifying that.<

glad to help

can't have you living under the delusion that 185 or 200 pound guy from 50 - 100y ago punched harder than a top-conditioned 235+ one from today

>how hard would Jess willard have hit if he were
>in a modern training camp today?.. he would kill people .. oh .. wait...I
>forgot ...he did actually kill a man.<

well it certainly wasn't a blown-up light-heavy in dempsey, who any of the modern legends probably would have killed

>Mike Tyson was under 5'11" and took
>out the biggest and most well trained modern big men.... and did it with a 71"
>reach<

err...

can you read ?

i told you he weighed 221 for the berbick fight & berbick a 6'2 guy weighed 218 for that

in terms of muscle when they turned up to fight, tyson had more & used it better

the only competitive guy who weighed more than 10 pounds heavier than tyson in his pre-douglas career was boncrusher

it doesn't matter if you're 5'11 - if you've got 220 of solid muscle, you're a big danger to a 6'3 & 220 guy


>norton was a severely under-rated fighter -

no not at all ..
>most people that know something
about boxing recognize Norton as a
>great.<

go watch the holmes fight - the man considered the premier heavyweight of late '70's/early '80's - norton got robbed & holmes ran a mile when they tried to make the rematch - preffered beating up on bums like leon spinks

which is just
>saying that foreman matched up well agains frazier and Ali did not... thanks
>for agreeing..<

yes, i'll happy agree that a short ass only 200 pound guy would get slaughtered by a 6'4/220 talented big punching guy

>Also keep in mind that smaller fighters like Frazier have a
>much shorter time window to be at their best. In that time window a great small
>fighter is one dangerous package. outside of that window he is in peril. He
>fought Foreman just outside of that window. He fought Ali the first time just
>inside that window<

well, most reckoned frazier was heir apparent when & top heavy around when ali got stripped in '67 & lost to foreman in '73

7y as best heavyweight in the worls a short career ?

tyson won title in '86 & whupped seldon & bruno in '96 for WBA & WBC titles

10y a short career at the top for a short guy ?
Last edited by eldrick on Tue Feb 08, 2005 12:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
eldrick
 
Posts: 14147
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am
Location: 19th hole st andrews

Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests