Max Schmelling dies

[Pego]

...a few months short of the 100th birthday. Obviously a boxer, not an T&F athlete, but many visitors to this site are sport fans in general.

[marknhj]

I was surprised to learn he was still alive - when did he beat Joe Louis, the 1930's?

[eldrick]

>I was surprised to learn he was still alive - when did he beat Joe Louis, the
>1930's?<

knocked him out in an eliminator in '36

max's camp saw a flaw in joe's style ( ? accredited to jack johnson who advised max's camp ) in which they saw that

joe dropped his left hand when he threw his right

this isn't exactly e = mc^2

& it's a wonder that a slow, methodical guy like joe, didn't get whupped a few more times...

[BillVol]

Agree with mark. I never imagined he was still alive! Wow!

[gh]

<<& it's a wonder that a slow, methodical
>guy like joe, didn't get whupped a few more times...>

Joe Louis "slow"?! He was renowned for his hand speed!

[Per Andersen]

Louis had a deceptive style and could appear slow but he punched with terrific speed and power. James Braddock (the Cinderella Man) was the champ at the time of the first Louis-Schmeling fight in '36.

[MJD]

>I was surprised to learn he was still alive - when did he beat Joe Louis, the
>1930's?

38 I think.

[eldrick]

><<& it's a wonder that a slow, methodical
>guy like joe, didn't get whupped a
>few more times...>

Joe Louis "slow"?! He was renowned for his hand
>speed!<

the videos show his hand speed was exceptional but his footspeed was abominable

looking at today's heavyweights - chris byrd is a pathetic champion - he's got more run in him than wiley coyote's intended dinner, but i doubt very much louis would have layed a glove on a guy like this

[Per Andersen]

Yeah, but you just cannot compare eras. Look at the pictures of these guys. Both Louis and Schmeling look pretty spindly. After Jack Johnson and Ali I still will prabably rank Louis 3rd. Certainly ahead of Marciano who just fought old men and punks after he became Champ back in '51.

[eldrick]

>Yeah, but you just cannot compare eras. Look at the pictures of these guys.
>Both Louis and Schmeling look pretty spindly. After Jack Johnson and Ali I
>still will prabably rank Louis 3rd. Certainly ahead of Marciano who just fought
>old men and punks after he became Champ back in '51.<

not sure how jack johnson gets you're no.1

he was a good defensive boxer & could punch, but they fought for about 30s/round & wrestled for the rest

the modern giants would have crushed him

as for the Rock - i wouldn't go there - too much emotion involved

however, i do agree, i can't see how it is actually possible for a 5'10, 185 pound guy to be any threat whatsoever against the modern giants of 6'3 & 215+ ( & now 6'5+ & 235+ ), who can not only hit like a torpedo, but have great chins - look at foreman,holmes,bowe,lennox,vitali...

[FrankS]

Bit of trivia! Who is now the oldest - living - ex-heavyweight champ?

[doug0914]

is it ingemar johanson of sweden?

[runforlife]

>>not sure how jack johnson gets you're no.1

He was generally considered the greatest until Ali.
There was a special about him on PBS about a month ago. A great outstanding athlete.

True, who knew that Max was still alive? Not I!

[Per Andersen]

Oldest ex-champ? Is Ezzard Charles dead? If he is, it is probably Ingo. Yes, I saw the PBS Ken Burns thing about Johnson. The man actually had a "modern" body unlike anybody who came after him. The way he knocked out Stanley Ketchel was absolutely stunning, what a feat of athleticism.

[paulthefan]

Joe Louis slow ?.. what are you watching.. he was lightening quick, could knock out anyone with either hand within less than a foot.. that is pure power and speed.... It was only because of his fighting style and the sound defense that he employed that folks think he was slow. There is no need to hop and skip around the ring if you have complete confidence in your ability to deflect your opponents punches.

As for the smaller guys like marciano.. the smaller frame can be highly effective if coupled
with tremendous leg strength and explosiveness..
Think Langford, McVey, Dempsey, Marciano, Frazier.. all of these could take down the best of any era... and all of them did.

Some of the heavyweights could have made great track guys.. I could see Ali or Johnson as greats in the Decathalon or the Discus for sure.

As for Schmeling.. he was really a light heavyweight in frame.. may we remember him for
the good he did and not for the manipulation that
was made of him.

[eldrick]

>Joe Louis slow ?.. what are you watching.. he was lightening quick, could knock
>out anyone with either hand within less than a foot.. that is pure power and
>speed.... It was only because of his fighting style and the sound defense that
>he employed that folks think he was slow. There is no need to hop and skip
>around the ring if you have complete confidence in your ability to deflect your
>opponents punches.

As for the smaller guys like marciano.. the smaller
>frame can be highly effective if coupled
with tremendous leg strength and
>explosiveness..
Think Langford, McVey, Dempsey, Marciano, Frazier.. all of
>these could take down the best of any era... and all of them did.

Some of
>the heavyweights could have made great track guys.. I could see Ali or Johnson
>as greats in the Decathalon or the Discus for sure.

As for Schmeling.. he
>was really a light heavyweight in frame.. may we remember him for
the good he
>did and not for the manipulation that
was made of him<

louis may have been fast within range of an opponent, but he would have been punching air for 15 rounds if he'd tried to chase an ali ( or possibly even a chris byrd around)

as for those "lil" heavyweights you mention - langford,dempsey,marciano never weighed more than 185 ( joe was a "division" bigger at 200 pounds ) - i can't make any case for them for against the modern giants - don't forget how hard the giants punch - if foreman,holmes,bowe,lewis,klitschko landed with their R hand on the button, what do you think was going to happen ?

[eldrick]

>Oldest ex-champ? Is Ezzard Charles dead? If he is, it is probably Ingo<

jeez, ezzard charles died in '75 !

[paulthefan]

Dempsey weighed between 188 and 195. Marciano was over 185lbs. Truth be told, Frazier was shorter than Dempsey probably shorter than Marciano. No doubt if Dempsey, Langford or Marciano were fighting today they would weigh much more to meet the different fighting styles and opponents they would face.

Just to assess the biases that people have in judging fighters.. ask yourself this question..
if you saw a picture of a Frazier frame/physique/dimensions... and were told that he was a fighter from the early 40s.. or say 20s .. it doesnt matter (5'10" 205 lbs) and were asked
how he would fair against Ali/Holmes/Lewis at his best what would you say.. if you are an honest man you would say that a 5'10" fighter from the 40s would get punched out of the ring in no time against any heavyweight of the last few decades....

Unfortunately for the theory, that same smokn joe frazier punched the best out the ring in his prime in the late 60s and early 70s.. the same era that some (mistakenly in my opinion) claim as the greatest era of the heavyweights... judging fighters by appearance is wrought with peril.. Smaller fighters can be highly effective.. unfortunately they seldom have long careers.. the athleticism required is extraordinary and short lived.

Recall the shock and awe that we witnessed when Mike Tyson at under 5'11" and about 210, punched men 6'4" out of the ring inside of 1 round... to recall the last time we saw that you would have to go back to the Dempsey - Willard fight.


If the big man lands the perfect punch it is lights out for sure.. but remember the smaller fighters typically have much more agility and dexterity that allows them to slip punches effortlessly, Dempseys style has been reproduced by all the great small men with big punch. It is a forebearer of the Frazier style. Do yourself a favor and watch the Dempsey - Willard fight.

[gh]

"giant" heavyweights tumbled years ago, they'd tumble now. See Primo Carnera.

[paulthefan]

Great point about Primo, He was not only big at 6'5" 250lbs .. he was an Adonis of muscle packed on top of muscle and strong as strong can be. He was not completely untrained as a boxer either.

The 6'2" 198 lb Max Baer took him out.....

Which raises trivia question number 2:
Who was the referee in that fight?



>"giant" heavyweights tumbled years ago, they'd tumble now. See Primo Carnera.

[paulthefan]

Stanley Ketchel was a middle weight, and one of the best, the Johnson-Ketchel fight was to be $$ maker and so as not to hurt the small and game fellow it was decided that the fight would go the distance.. Ketchel unfortunately got "weird" and struck Johnson with a hard punch that knocked him down.. Johnson got up and almost killed the little man.

A modern body? ..



>Oldest ex-champ? Is Ezzard Charles dead? If he is, it is probably Ingo. Yes,
>I saw the PBS Ken Burns thing about Johnson. The man actually had a "modern"
>body unlike anybody who came after him. The way he knocked out Stanley Ketchel
>was absolutely stunning, what a feat of athleticism.

[eldrick]

>Dempsey weighed between 188 and 195. Marciano was over 185lbs. Truth be told,
>Frazier was shorter than Dempsey probably shorter than Marciano. No doubt if
>Dempsey, Langford or Marciano were fighting today they would weigh much more to
>meet the different fighting styles and opponents they would face.

Just to
>assess the biases that people have in judging fighters.. ask yourself this
>question..
if you saw a picture of a Frazier frame/physique/dimensions...
>and were told that he was a fighter from the early 40s.. or say 20s .. it
>doesnt matter (5'10" 205 lbs) and were asked
how he would fair against
>Ali/Holmes/Lewis at his best what would you say.. if you are an honest man you
>would say that a 5'10" fighter from the 40s would get punched out of the ring
>in no time against any heavyweight of the last few
>decades....

Unfortunately that same smokn joe frazier punched the best out
>the ring in his prime in the late 60s and early 70s.. the same era that some
>(mistakenly in my opinion) claim as the greatest era of the heavyweights...
>judging fighters by appearance is wrought with peril.. Smaller fighters can be
>highly effective.. unfortunately they seldom have long careers.. the
>athleticism required is extraordinary and short lived.

Recall the shock and
>awe that we witnessed when Mike Tyson at under 5'11" and about 210, punched
>men 6'4" out of the ring inside of 1 round... to recall the last time we saw
>that you would have to go back to the Dempsey - Willard fight.


If the big
>man lands the perfect punch it is lights out for sure.. but remember the
>smaller fighters typically have much more agility and dexterity that allows
>them to slip punches effortlessly, Dempseys style has been reproduced by all
>the great small men with big punch. It is a forebearer of the Frazier style.
>Do yourself a favor and watch the Dempsey - Willard fight.

marciano's peak fighting weight was 185

he tried to come in heavier at 190, but he said he felt "sluggish" with just this extra weight & always came in at 185 after

as for these midgets weighing more - well, they were 5'10 at best & none of them had a bull-frame like frazier & tyson - i can't see what good it would have done them - remember the old adage:

You can't put muscle on your chin !

as for frazier, he was a step up in wt. from these guyz at 200+ - but look at what happened to him when he came up against a big-punching giant in foreman !

not just once, but foreman cremated him twice for good measure !

now, the likes of bowe,lennox & vitali probably punch even harder than foreman ( prime he was 6'4 & 220 - these guyz 6'5+ & 235+ )

tyson did well,because despite being a 5'10 guy, he was 220 (NOT 210) of solid muscle ( weighed 221 when he won the title at 20 against berbick ) - the 6'3 guyz of the late '80's were also ~ 220 when fit - so tyson was not giving away anything in strength or muscle - just height, but his swarming,deceptively hard-to-hit style negated their height advantages, so he could get in close & hit with as much force as any of the big guyz

[eldrick]

>"giant" heavyweights tumbled years ago, they'd tumble now. See Primo Carnera<

we are talking giants with some skill !

reminds me of the quote a few years ago when frank bruno was fighting in vegas & 2 guys were walking into caesar's palace & they stopped to admire the magnificent statue of David outside the arena

one guy goes:

"what a magnifenct carving - he reminds me of bruno"

to which his friend uttered the immortal riposte:

"yeah, but the statue moves quicker !"

[paulthefan]

Bruno was a very good fighter and had good athleticism.. dont know what the heck you are talking about..

As for Frazier I dont think his chest size would measure much bigger than Marcianos, nor his arm size.. though he had a slightly larger reach. In the legs their strongest asset, they were very similar.. I dont know that Marciano today would not be a 210lb heavyweight today.. different training regimes today... though yes I would guess that he would be a better fit in the cruiser weight division..

Of course Evander Holyfield, Michael Spinks, Floyd Patterson, Tunney and Langford, McVey, Fitzsimmons all had success as heavyweights though they all were natural lightheavys.

Back to Frazier and his fight with Foreman, yes he did not match up well with Foreman. but he matched up supremely with Ali... some styles work well against others.. some do not. Ali had trouble with the Norton and Frazier styles. It had little to do with an inadequacy of size.

[marknhj]

>Bruno was a very good fighter and had good athleticism.. dont know what the
>heck you are talking about..

>>>

Huh? Even us Brits regarded him as a bit of a joke. Became hugely popular because his loveable image, even appeared in pantomime every Christmas. Image took something of a dive when he turned out to be a wife beater. I suspected Tyson was about to wack him when walked to the ring and crossed himself about 50 times. My American friends were in hysterics, never seen a guy going into the ring so obviously terrifed.

[paulthefan]

Bruno had some very good fights.. I dont recall the particulars... I never said he was champion material.. but he was a good fighter, I guess I just appreciate the contenders out there. They make every sport a great sport, without them there are no champions...

Americans and brits judge fighters much more harshly than they do any of their other athletes.. if a footballer or a basketballer has a bad night we give them the benefit of a doubt no bid deal.. if I fighter tanks.. we call him a "bum"... strange indeed.


Regarding Tyson, he stood under 5'11" fought at his best under 220 and had a marciano-eque 71 inch reach.. we have very short memory.. recall that before he stomped through the heavyweight ranks most folks thought that the age of the sub 6'2" heavyweights were long gone.

Check out McVey from the 1910s
http://coxscorner.tripod.com/mcvey.html

[Per Andersen]

By "modern body" I meant the guy had a muscle development unlike any of the great ones of that era. He looked like somebody who had spent time the weight room. I know Ketchel was a middle weight but it was the way Johnson did it that was amazing. He just got off the floor and in one motion just knocked him out. But again you guys are comparing eras. Study Jack Johnson's career and see what he had to got through to get a title shot and the conditions he lived through.

[Track fan]

Does anybody think that Jessie Owens could beat any top sprinter of recent times(or fairly recent)? Same argument for Dempsey or Louis beating a Lewis or Vitali. Moderning training methods combined with drugs has created a far superior athlete.

[eldrick]

>Bruno was a very good fighter and had good athleticism.. dont know what the
>heck you are talking about..<

marco has explained this very well

bruno was a joke

in fact vegas had a the statue a 1/10 favorite if he'd ever fought bruno

>As for Frazier I dont think his chest size
>would measure much bigger than Marcianos, nor his arm size.. though he had a
>slightly larger reach. In the legs their strongest asset, they were very
>similar..<

ehh?

same this, same that...

then how come frazier weighed 200 & marciano 185 ???

>I dont know that Marciano today would not be a 210lb heavyweight
>today..<

if he felt a sluggish when coming in at a few pounds over 185, what kinda condition would he have felt at 210 ?

don't forget, marciano was the hardest training heavyweight we've probably ever seen ( if he had wanted to bulk up in the '50's, he would have had no problem doing so ) - if 185 was what he felt was his best fighting weight, then i don't see why he would have come in at 210 - he would probably have been virtually immobile


>Back to Frazier and his fight with Foreman, yes he did not
>match up well with Foreman. but he matched up supremely with Ali... some styles
>work well against others.. some do not<

i'm talking about the modern,HARD-PUNCHING giants

foreman,bowe,lewis,klitschko are, ali wasn't

first heavy puncher frazier fought he got slaughtered - it would have been no different against the others in that list

>Ali had trouble with the Norton and
>Frazier styles. It had little to do with an inadequacy of size.<

norton was a severely under-rated fighter - his fight against holmes for the vacant WBC title in '78 was IMHO the 2nd best heavyweight fight of the '70's - i reckon he got robbed against holmes & i would certainly say that at his peak, he was as good a fighter as holmes ever was

as for frazier, it's obvious ali never had the punching power to fend frazier off - unlike a "real" puncher like foreman

[FrankS]

Bruno was an enigma. Apart from Tyson, everyone who got in the ring with him was frightened of his power. Lennox Lewis didn't like Bruno's power and was way behind on points when he landed the big one. Bruno's big problem, of course, was his inability to recover from being hit with a big punch.

[Pego]

<norton was a severely under-rated fighter>

I agree. IMO Norton was a better boxer than the likes of Holmes, Bowe or Lewis.

[paulthefan]

You should study boxing a little more, Jeffries (champ from 1899 to 1905) had a far more formidable physique (in 1900 he was 6'2" and 218lbs) than Johnson. .. and please dont bring up the Jeffries Johnson fight of 1915 when Jeffries came out of a 5 year retirement at 300lbs and at age 36 to face the young Johnson in Reno....

Nevertheless I too rate Johnson as one of the top Heavyweight and probably forced to pick Id say the best. He had great offensive skill, was a master of defensive much like Holmes only with much better feet than Holmes.

He actually lived quite large and had an iron constitution much like all heavyweight champs do.



>By "modern body" I meant the guy had a muscle development unlike any of the
>great ones of that era. He looked like somebody who had spent time the weight

[paulthefan]

Jesse would be make it to the final for sure...



>Does anybody think that Jessie Owens could beat any top sprinter of recent
>times(or fairly recent)? Same argument for Dempsey or Louis beating a Lewis or
>Vitali. Moderning training methods combined with drugs has created a far
>superior athlete.

[paulthefan]

>marco has explained this very well
>bruno was a joke

Im sure among the teenage know-it-all beer swillers, bar hopper and self styled tough-guys he was quite the joke.


>As for Frazier I dont think his chest size
>would
>measure much bigger than Marcianos, nor his arm size.. though he had
>a
>slightly larger reach. In the legs their strongest asset, they were
>very
>similar..<

ehh?

same this, same that...

then how come frazier
>weighed 200 & marciano 185 ???

Fighters train to fight the fighters they fight. Marciano was a 215lb individual.. you make yourself what is necessary to win the fight. He was fighting guys 6 to 6'2" who were 200 -210lbs.. He determined he would be most effective at 188.

Frasier trained to fight guys a little bigger. .. George Foreman was under 220 to fight Ali, when he came back to fight bigger guys he chose to weigh near 240.


>I dont know that Marciano today would not be
>a 210lb heavyweight
>today..<

if he felt a sluggish when coming in at a few
>pounds over 185, what kinda condition would he have felt at 210 ?

Today he might choose to be 210... with todays training and methods that is my guess..

Im not here trying to defend Marciano or claim he was the greatest heavyweight.. I do see him has a cruiserweight, that 188 is not the size to be at as a heavyweight.. but lightheavys and cruisers can step up to take the heavyweight title and he did just that.


don't
>forget, marciano was the hardest training heavyweight we've probably ever seen
>( if he had wanted to bulk up in the '50's, he would have had no problem doing
>so ) - if 185 was what he felt was his best fighting weight, then i don't see
>why he would have come in at 210 - he would probably have been virtually
>immobile


I have no reason to beleive that he was the hardest training heavyweight.. I have never heard that from any boxing historian, Nat Fleicher does not mention that to the best of my knowledge, dont know where you got that from... But I have total respect for a guy who at 185lbs can knock out the best heavyweights over 200lbs .. that certainly moves Mariano up in my estimation of his ability and rank. I would rate him as a poundforpound great. I would not put him as one of the top 6 heavyweights.

If you have made up your mind that bigger is better and that being born in the last 30 yearsmakes you better .. then there is nothing I can say to change your mind...

i'm talking about the
>modern,HARD-PUNCHING giants
foreman,bowe,lewis,klitschko are, ali
>wasn't
first heavy puncher frazier fought he got slaughtered - it would have
>been no different against the others in that list
>Ali had trouble with the
>Norton and
>Frazier styles. It had little to do with an inadequacy of
>size.<


Oh.. I forgot that these modern big guys hit MUCH HARDER than the older hard hitting big guy... thanks for clarifying that.

lets face it you start with the axiom that newer is better and bigger is better. No effort need be made to calibrate across decades. Most of the modern guys have much better training and technology and information ... how hard would Jess willard have hit if he were in a modern training camp today?.. he would kill people .. oh .. wait...I forgot ...he did actually kill a man.

Mike Tyson was under 5'11" and took out the biggest and most well trained modern big men.... and did it with a 71" reach.


>norton was a severely under-rated fighter -

no not at all .. most people that know something
about boxing recognize Norton as a great.


as for frazier, it's
>obvious ali never had the punching power to fend frazier off - unlike a
>"real" puncher like foreman

which is just saying that foreman matched up well agains frazier and Ali did not... thanks for agreeing..


Also keep in mind that smaller fighters like Frazier have a much shorter time window to be at their best. In that time window a great small fighter is one dangerous package. outside of that window he is in peril. He fought Foreman just outside of that window. He fought Ali the first time just inside that window.

[einnod23]

>Great point about Primo, He was not only big at 6'5" 250lbs .. he was an
>Adonis of muscle packed on top of muscle and strong as strong can be. He was
>not completely untrained as a boxer either.

The 6'2" 198 lb Max Baer took
>him out.....

Which raises trivia question number 2:
Who was the referee
>in that fight?



>"giant" heavyweights tumbled years ago, they'd tumble
>now. See Primo Carnera.

Primo = The Michael Grant of his era, but w/a bit more heart?