throwers who lifted big weights

[El Toro]

Eldrick, you have strayed way too far from your distance races.

You will not find any evidence supportive of a linear relationship between weight and distance with equivalent levels of strength. It just doesn't work that way and anyone who has picked up a shot can tell you that. Or, maybe, you are the only person in the world that REALLY knows the throws.

[eldrick]

>If you're suggesting that two guys who are equally good at normal SP (i.e. with
>the 7.26k shot) have to be equally good with the 4k-er, that's bollocks, too.<


who suggested anything "about two guys who are equally good at normal SP (i.e. with
>the 7.26k shot) have to be equally good with the 4k-er" ?

i'm afraid your the one talking "bollocks"

your imagination is obviously running away with you in your zealousness

i suggested nothing at all about this

all i did was re-post the stats that showed 2 throwers that have virtually the same abilty with one wt. of SP, have a significantly different ones with another wt.

my "suggestions" were about why a thrower doesn't throw as far with a lighter shot put as expected to ( general comments ), nothing about 2 particular throwers abilities

[Pierre-Jean]

Big Mac said:
Thats wrong,
>one of the most explosive throwers ever, Wladyslav Komar (I think thats his
>name) threw 22.06 with a 16lb and his best throw with a 4kg is 29m. Jannus
>Robberts (21.97m with 16lb) "only" got over 27m I think. Give a 4kg shot to a
>hundred 17m male throwers and I can bet the number who can get 29m with the
>womens shot is incredibley low. Flip I doubt Michael Carter could have hit 29m
>with a 4kg.

First, Wladislaw Komar's official best throw with 16lb is 21.19. So who are you talking about?
A reliable source T&FN Oct'83 edition mentions Eduard Sarul (PB 21.68) who threw 4kg shot at 28m, best of the world according to his coach.

[big mac]

>First, Wladislaw Komar's official best throw with 16lb is 21.19. So who are you talking about?
A reliable source T&FN Oct'83 edition mentions Eduard Sarul (PB 21.68) who threw 4kg shot at 28m, best of the world according to his coach.

Yes well I said I think that is his name. Saruls' best training distances were 22.06 with 16lb and 29m with 4kg.

I don't like this topic because Eldrick is trying to run this with very little actual throws experience.

For example, yesterday, I had just lifted, this can kill explosiveness a little. But I threw 15.35m with a 6kg shot, and 18.5m with a 4kg shot. Best 5kg is only slightly over 16. Now if I used formulas I should be throwing the 4kg over 20m off my 6kg distance, and only 14m with the 6kg if you use my 5kg distance. I just happen to throw the heavier shot well, even though this is my first time throwing a 6kg this whole year.

[Pego]

<"....it reminded me of what i heard had once happened to the Candadian Shot Putter, Marty Catalano. He'd plodded out to the trackone morning for a lengthy training session. He was a clean hard working athlete who loved his sport. He'd even brought a homemade picnic and laid it out by the circle. As he warmer up, the East German female Shot Putter Ilona Slupianek arrived. Without even a stretch, she picked up Marty's shot put - twice the size of the women's - and nonchalantly hurdled it 17 metres, a distance Marty woudl struggle to reach on a good day. Marty watched Silently for a moment, then picked up his sandwiches, zipped up his training bag and left.">

The key words are "what I heard". I am betting that this is one of so many urban legends about T&F performances. As I said, 15m by Slupianek with the 16-pounder would floor me, let alone a "nonchalant 17".

[big mac]

A video of Slupianek throwing 22.41m

http://www.macthrowvideo.com/downloads/1980_WShot.mpg

[macthrow]

Ilona Slupianek was reported to have thrown 17.50 Meters with the 7.25Kg in the late 1970's. I found that reasonable since I was over 18 Meters with the 7.25Kg ball at that time and I could not approach 22 Meters with the 4Kg shot as Slupianek had done.
Ilona Slupianek was an exceptional thrower!

[Rufus Cookie]

in the words of a fairly decent jumper friend of mine "athletics is about defiying the laws of physics everyday"

should a human be able to jump 9m? throw a hevay ball 23m? jump over 2.5m?

[Rob]

..

[det]

How far have some of the top women discus throwers tossed the 2 kilo discus? Conversely, what is the best a male has thrown the 1 kilo? I've seen some male 200+ foot throwers look real silly trying to throw the 1 kilo.

[Rufus Cookie]

82.48(270'7) by Tim Vollmer (USA) in california in 1972 (26yrs old?) hsi best with a 2kg is 67.38m

15yr old Tim Driesen (AUS) threw 75.33 with the 1kg his best with a 2kg is 56.07 (as a 19/20yr old)


also to add to the weightlifting/throwing thing

Kevin Coleman competed in 1996 US Olympic trials in both shot and weightlifting (+108kg class).

Jon Cole threw discus 65.92(216-3) in 1972; he is also one of the best ever combination weightlifter-powerlifter. Cole also put the shot 69'11.5 and threw the jav 221'.

George Frenn, US hammer thrower, was a top American powerlifter of the 70's (110kg class), as well as former "world best" holder of the #35 and #56 weight throws.

Bruce Wilhelm was also a top US weightlifter and shot putter.

Sammy Walker (SMU) held the HS shot record at ~73' put 66-68' on college, and made the US olympic WL team as a superheavyweight.

Gary Gubner was a WR ISP and OSP and competed in the 1964 Olympic games in weightlifting.

Ken Patera was also an olympic weightlifter, strongman, shot putter, and pro wrestler.

Geoff Capes (GB) was a strongman, Scottish highland games athlete, and shot putter.

WOMEN:
Theresa Brick was a top hammer thrower for canada in the 1990s and also totalled 217.5kg in weightlifting at least three times.

Eileen Vanisi, shot putter has totalled 1215 pounds in powerlifting, for an ADFPA open and collegiate record in the superheavyweight class.

Karoliina Lundahl is 1998 world champion in weightlifing in the 75kg weight class with a 230kg total, and she was an 18m+ shot putter for Finland.

Carla Garrett was a top SP-DT in college (Az) and was also top US SWH weightlifter in the early 1990s.

[Rufus Cookie]

Eha Rünne 63.18m
3kg shot standing throw ( like a discus ) - 26.16m
4kg shot standing throw ( like a discus ) - 18.52m
2kg shot standing throw ( like a discus ) - 32.50m
2kg shot full throw ( like a discus ) - 39.30m
2,5 kg ( barbell disc ) - standing 28.79m
1 kg discus standing - 51.86m
0.75kg discus full spin - 65.10m

Edward Sarul - 21.68m
Training Shot PRs:
4kg: 29.03m
5kg: 25.58m
6kg: 23.44m
7.26kg: 22.03m (in training)
7.26kg standing: 19.00m

Brian Oldfield - 22.86m
Training Records PRs:
4kg: 27.74m
6.5kg: 25.60m
7.5kg: 22.73m
8.5kg: 20.53m
9kg: 19.99m

[Tunks]

Throwing the 1kg....interesting.
I have heard that Riedel and SHult were both around 88-89m....while Powell was at 90m....my PR is 89.20m from 1998.

[Rufus Cookie]

hey tunks, what about the day before salinas this year with that wind, reckon you coudl of cracked 90?

but if we go by eldricks calculations im pretty sure you should be throwing 134m, mmmmm or if we do it from your 1kg best, 45.6m with a 2kg?

[eldrick]

>but if we go by eldricks calculations im pretty
>sure you should be throwing 134m, mmmmm or if we do it from your 1kg best,
>45.6m with a 2kg?

you obviously aren't able to move your arm the required 41% faster

[tafnut]

>>This is the poundage >equivalent of football 40s.

That's the most insightful statement in this whole thread. REAL weightlifters are looking at most of these numbers and shouting 'WHATEVER'. I get disgusted when football fans tout the speed of their athletes, but I imagine that some of the claims on this thread are even more ludicrous than the apochyphal 4.0's amd 4.1's that they swear are legit.

[MJD]

I finally opened this up too to see what all the fuss was about and it's funny to see gh try to be the voice of reason every 20 or 30 posts and everyone just keep talking past him.

[Rufus Cookie]

>>>This is the poundage >equivalent of football 40s.

That's the most
>insightful statement in this whole thread. REAL weightlifters are looking at
>most of these numbers and shouting 'WHATEVER'. I get disgusted when football
>fans tout the speed of their athletes, but I imagine that some of the claims on
>this thread are even more ludicrous than the apochyphal 4.0's amd 4.1's that
>they swear are legit.



but then you look at it in the context of what is going on and things click, football 40s are often done hand timed first foot contact etc, vertical leaps in B'ball often done with a short approach, throwers weights done with very little technique i.e woudlnt pass for a comp lift

[tafnut]

but then you look at it in>the context of what is going on and things click, football 40s are often done>hand timed first foot contact etc,

but MY point is that there is NO context. Everyone here is mixing apples with oranges with bananas with cucumbers. There's about six different Bench Presses going on, nine different Squats. If you don't care to adhere to some criteria (i.e. rules) for what constitutes a lift, then everyone's doing something different and it is MEANINGLESS. At least in the football 40's they sorta try to do the same thing, but even there we have enormous variances in results. All this thread accomplishes is showing that big people like to throw big numbers around to impress us little people.

[Rufus Cookie]

the original post asked this sough of stuff, i have written important points in capitals

" I am interested in weights that are CLAIMED, but better yet, witnessed, as far as cleans, power cleans, snatch, or power snatch, what the source of the information is, etc.
I am of the opinion that some top throwers have lifted pretty haevy weights in this area in TRAINING. I would appreciate any help in this area."

they didnt ask, what had so and so done with perfect weightlifting form in a competition arena with judges and etc, it was simply asked what was claimed or witnesses byt top throwers in the weights room referring specifically to training. so the respoinses given were answering the problem that started this thread lifts claimed or witnessed in throwers training

[Andy Bloom]

I don't think it is fair to compare thrower's lifts with football 40s. As controvertial as they are, football 40s are relatively standardized. The NFL uses them and the times we hear about are taken by the same group of people. Football lifts are as inaccurate as track lifts. Remember John Kitna, the quarterback from FLorida State, who was the strongest leg presser on the team? There are schools that count a bench press if you can move the bar off your chest at all because it boosts the number of 500 pounders on the team.

It is probably more accurate to compare thrower's lifts with jumpers bungy PRs. There is no standard sag to a bungy and you can hit it is hard as you want without "missing" an attempt. I have seen vaulters clain makes on heights where the bar wouldn't have stayed up if it was a foot lower. I am sure there are some audacious claims out there. The fact remains that I did certain lifts in certain ways because I believed they helped me throw farther. It certainly wasn't so I could say I had big lifts.

[Pego]

All right Andy, now that you are here, what is your opinion? Is Slupianek's alleged 17.50 with a 16-pounder a possibility or a fiction?

[tafnut]

>>I am interested in weights that are CLAIMED.

sorry to belabor this - but what the heck good is that? Just because someone can delude themselves, doesn't mean we have to assign any significance to what they say.

by the way, I dumbbell curled 588.5 six reps yesterday. That's a lot of ounces.

[Rufus Cookie]

well dont pay any attention to it, dont come in this thread, the question was asked the question was answered with the best available sources. sorry if it isnt up to your standard of perfection

[eldrick]

>well dont pay any attention to it, dont come in this thread, the question was
>asked the question was answered with the best available sources. sorry if it
>isnt up to your standard of perfection

calm down rufus babe !

i don't know where you got all those stats from, but apart from some parts of mississippi, that kind of "interest" is considered illegal in areas of homo erectus' habitation

[Rufus Cookie]

quite easy to get all that stuff if u know where to look

sorry if i have a unnatural interest in an event catergory which pretty much dictates my daily life

[eldrick]

>quite easy to get all that stuff if u know where to look

sorry if i have a
>unnatural interest in an event catergory which pretty much dictates my daily
>life<

it was a compliment

do you require whacking over the head with one until you realise it is such ?

[Rufus Cookie]

mmm interesting compliment

[Andy Bloom]

I don't know why it is so hard to imagine an elite woman doing this. 17.50 is not an unbelievable throw for an 18 year old male. There are always several college freshmen who throw that far. Elite women have comparable strength levels, if not greater, greater experience and a far greater knowledge and understanding of the event. Why shouldn't they be able to throw that far? In addition, the general rule of thumb is that you drop around 10 feet going from the 12 to the 16. Why is 15 feet going from a 4k to the 16 hard to imagine?

The fact that someone's running of the numbers "disproves" the scenario is moot. Didn't we just celebrate the impossible with the anniversary of man's breaking the 4 minute mile? Plugging numbers into a formula that does not represent the shot put accurately is not proof. I believe the formula that you use deals with projectiles fired from a stationary position, presumably from a stable site. The shot put is anything but. In the glide technique the thrower must break contact with the ground and recontact in the middle of the ring, hence the ball already has momentum. Successful shot putting depends on the thrower's ability to accelerate an object that is already moving. In the case of the women's shot, this is very difficult due to the strength of the throwers and the relative lack of weight of the ball. The men's shot will move slowly through the middle of the ring and allow you to create tremedous stretch through the pec, shoulder, abs, and hips (see Adam Nelson). The women's throw, on the other hand, relies on the speed of the thrower's hips in the middle to accelerate the ball because the ball doesn't sit like the men's. As a result the women cannot achieve the dramatic accleration necessary for giant throws with the 4k, but could have more luck creating stretch, and distance with a 16. If you are not convinced of the differences, ask yourself why there has only been one elite female spinner that has competed consistently at the world level, while it has become the technique of choice for the men.
The formula also doesn't hold water because the body is not designed to handle the forces applied at the greater speeds. A left knee incapable of handling greater speeds might collapse to reduce stress and therby reduce speed of release and distance attained (look at film of the 99 World Indoor's woman's winner). This might happen with the 4k because of speed without happening with the 16 because the speed is reduced and there is ample strength to stabilize the left side, which would allow for comparably longer throws.

[Rufus Cookie]

thank you andy, hopefully by having your name to it will make people realise it can and probably has happened

[eldrick]

mr Andy

thank you for omniescensce


i only tried to point out that throws (with lighter wt.) if assessed on a theoretical basis should be much further

i shouldn't have posted it, afterwards realising that 6kg, 12 pounds, 8 pounds, 4kg... eventually progress infinitely long (until of-course arm speed restrictions & air-resistance kill it off) -

just how short the restrictions were, is surprising !

[eldrick]

anyhows, i'm bit upset to have posted the 100th thread on this topic - it should be rufus'

maybe, i can post something interesting him


how about overweight guyz & SP ?

the aim of the SP'er is to impart as much speed as possible to the shot-at-release

how he does it, is not important - he could be a 200 pound dervish or a 300 slob

it doesn't matter - you just have to impart that speed !

why has nelson thrown so far & the bigger guyz not much more ?

try this:

imagine a 300 pound "slob" who throws 22.00

he's good, very good, but his coach wishes more "udo" than "wino"



if you consider this 300 pounder just a machine, with the sole function of producing "speed" to release the SP, then you can get some insight into possible improvements:


if the "slob" can maintain his "strength" when losing wt.

theoretically ( a maximum)

if,

300 -> 22.00

then

295 -> 22.18

290 -> 22.37

285 -> 22.57

...

[det]

In defense of fat slobs who throw, from Newton:

Momentum = mass x velocity

[oldtimer123]

See the book "Strength & Speed" by Dale Harder, p.258 for a logical way to comparte marks with throwing things of different weights. This works very well with shot puts and discus throws but not as well with the hammer because of the different mechanics involved. Here it is: "Use the square root of the ratio of the weights of the two shot being compared. Example: to compare 12 and 16-lb shot marks, the ratio of 12/16 is .75 . The square root of .75 is .833. Therefore a 12-lb put of 50 feet equals 43.s feet with a 16-pound shot."

[eldrick]

>See the book "Strength & Speed" by Dale Harder, p.258 for a logical way to
>comparte marks with throwing things of different weights. This works very well
>with shot puts and discus throws but not as well with the hammer because of the
>different mechanics involved. Here it is: "Use the square root of the ratio of
>the weights of the two shot being compared. Example: to compare 12 and 16-lb
>shot marks, the ratio of 12/16 is .75 . The square root of .75 is .866.
>Therefore a 12-lb put of 50 feet equals 43.s feet with a 16-pound shot."

square root of the ratios of the wt.s is what we have actually been using to get the ratios of velocities of the different shot's:

0.5 * m1 * v1 ^2 = 0.5 * m2* v2^2

which reduces to v1/v2 = (m2/m1)^1/2

the thing is, we tried to put the "old" & new velocities into some projectile software (as gravity doesn't have a simple linear effect on an object) & we get different figures from simply square-rooting