What happens when you run out of gas

[Randy Treadway]

This was discussed a few years ago on the darkwing list, but what happened to Paula Radcliffe in the women's marathon reminded me of it.

There was a lot of criticism of Suzy Favor-Hamilton when she ran out of gas in the final straightaway of the 1500 in a couple of different races and was reduced to a creeping crawl with arms and legs flailing all other the place.
Some folks criticized her 'lack of fitness', while the physiologist types explained that it was a perfectly normal reaction when the body completely runs dry- that's what happens to your limbs.
I remember seeing much the same thing in the 1984 Olympics with the Swiss runner (female) in the marathon. Her last lap on the track in the Coliseum was agonizing- in fact it reduced my father-in-law to tears! Again, once she got some fluids into her (IV) she was fine, but her limbs were doing the crazy act- out at all angles- just like Suzy F-H.

Now when I saw Radcliffe on TV the other day I thought the exact same thing was coming up- she was trying to take lots of water, was obviously struggling and slowing down, and certainly wasn't fluid at all. I think she recognized she'd reached that point and was ready to go into the crazy-limb, stumbling thing, probably for a half mile or three quarters of a mile, leading to collapse- so she just took herself out at that point- probably the smart thing since it's doubtful she could have finished with 3 miles remaining at that point.

But I'm curious about something- we see this occasionally at the elite level- but always (to my recollection) with women. I don't recall any men (elite level) going into the crazy limb thing when their tank runs dry.
So what's different about the women that makes them more susceptible to such a phenomenon, or are my observations too limited and men really are just as susceptible?

How do you like that, none of today's results in this thread!!! (yet!)

[Bob Duncan]

Another case was that famous female triathlete who crawled across the finish line at the Ironman, years back.

[cullman]

Male crazy limb thing? Jim Peters, Vancouver British Empire Games 1954 and Etienne Gailly 1948 Oly marathon to name two. Julie Moss was leading the 1982 Hawaii Ironman when she had to crawl the last 100 feet. It inspired a whole generation of triathletes.

cman

[Randy Treadway]

Dorando Pietri in 1908 was another case.

There's a pretty good article here (see page 5) explaining the phenomenon- what triggers the brain to send the body a 'shut down' order as a protective device- but it doesn't explain any differences in the phenomenon between men and women. It does explain how it is related to certain climates, with specific warnings about Athens and how possibly to take preventive preparation.

http://www.physoc.org/publications/pn/a ... /mag55.pdf

[26mi235]

The 10,000 at the USA/USSR dual; IIRC, the Russian leading the race hit that point and got more vertical/bent backwards and, I think, finally collapsed. The conditions were quite hot. (BTW, I was at the finish in LA '84 and saw Gabriella(?) xxxx trying to finish that race.)

I saw the same thing at an intermural track meet in Texas when I was teaching there. A big runner had started the 3-mile quite fast (it took me 3-4 laps just to catch him) then I started lapping him. He was really struggling when a runner on a rival team caught him. He tried so hard to keep up that he was literally collapsing. The people at the meet did not want to intervene so I went over to him and "helped" him so that he was "disqualified", at which point they agreed that they could try to get his body temp below 106.

[jonas]

I have seen it happen once during the yearly athletics match between Sweden and Finland. One of the Finns totally ran out of gas during the men's 10k race, and ran the last laps in an awkward style with crooked legs. But he did finish, since abanoning the race would have meant one lost point for Finland.

[satch400]

Ask BOB SOTH

[highjumpsteve]

>Male crazy limb thing? Jim Peters, Vancouver British Empire Games 1954 and
>Etienne Gailly 1948 Oly marathon to name two. Julie Moss was leading the 1982
>Hawaii Ironman when she had to crawl the last 100 feet. It inspired a whole
>generation of triathletes.

cman

BOB SOTH IN 10,000 AT USA-USSR MEET IN PHILLY IN 1959.

[Half Miler]

Jay Marden in the '88 Oly Trials in Indianapolis.

The heat/humidity were intense, as per usual for Indy. The men's 5000 went off in the late afternoon, in about 96 degree heat. Marden was running hard to stay in 3rd, trying desperately to make the team. About 3 laps from the finish, he was clearly in trouble, looking back repeatedly to see who was near him...finally, on the backstretch of the last lap, he started flailing, looked back one last time and began to teeter backward as his legs continued forward. He crumpled into a heap as runners darted around him, his olympic dream finished.

Will never forget GH's joke afterward: "They sure bend over backward to please you at the Trials."

[malmo]

Randy, what happens when you bonk? To start off, it's an out of body experience for a reason. You see spots. You wobble. You get continual leg cramps. You're on the way to death - literally. I've been in a race (10 miles, early morning) in which two people wandered off the course and died. I've also been on "easy" ten mile training runs where the symptoms suddenly overcame me. I stopped and stumbled to a doorstep and asked if I could use the phone to call home and get a ride.

It's not simply an issue of dehydration. This is VERY serious stuff. It's NOT an athletic condition, it's a medical condition.

I'm sure you've read or even seen it many times before, the womens marathon in '80 being the most egregious example of negligence by officials. When it stops becoming a celebration of the athletic it's time to stop.

A couple of examples that are "seared in my memory" are Virgin's collapse in the 1974 NCAA 6 mile with a lap top go, and more recently, Frack's final 50 meters of the 2000 NCAA 10k.

[Daisy]

>It's not simply an issue of dehydration. This is VERY
>serious stuff. It's NOT an athletic condition, it's a medical condition.

Interesting to hear and more evidence to back up the idea that it would be insane for an athlete in this condition to 'gut it out' to the end just because it is the olympic games.

[oatkins]

Right Malmo,
I learned after three hospitalizations due to heat stress that when I had the symptoms you mentioned or I could no longer follow a line on the road, was tripping on the curb now and then and starting to lean backward that it was time to quit the race. Ones temperature is usually at least 107 by then. If you go on, you are in danger of death or at least frying your brain.

[George P.]

Where's a sports doctor when you need one?

According to my long-term understanding, we're talking about two different types of breakdowns here. The first type (and the one that's getting the most attention in this post) occurs in track races from (at least) 400m up. It's cause by improper pacing -- going out too fast, whatever. The body's capacity for anaerobic performance is exceeded.

The other type of breakdown is generally seen only in the marathon and the ultras. It results, as I recall, from the depletion of carbohydrates -- when the body switches from the efficient burning of carbs to the inefficient, painful burning of fat tissue.

My understanding dates back several decades. Perhaps more recent research has developed different answers.

[Daisy]

>Where's a sports doctor when you need one?

>According to my long-term
>understanding, we're talking about two different types of breakdowns here. The
>first type (and the one that's getting the most attention in this post) occurs
>in track races from (at least) 400m up. It's cause by improper pacing -- going
>out too fast, whatever. The body's capacity for anaerobic performance is
>exceeded.

>The other type of breakdown is generally seen only in the
>marathon and the ultras. It results, as I recall, from the depletion of
>carbohydrates -- when the body switches from the efficient burning of carbs to
>the inefficient, painful burning of fat tissue.

>My understanding dates
>back several decades. Perhaps more recent research has developed different
>answers.

In that case, may be three types of breakdown, since heat exhaustion would not fit either category and would compound the problem due to the first two you mention. i.e. too much lactic acid, too little glycogen.

Marathon runners often have metabolisms that burn fatty acids more efficiently so the gylcogen reserves can last for a longer period. Such shifts in metabolism can occur if all training is done aerobically (slow runs) rather than anaerobically.

[oatkins]

Much of the above information is mainly heat related brought on by the temperature, sun and humidity. Naturally a difficult course or too fast pace can add to ones problem. It is my understanding that continuing the race with heat stress can lead to a heat stroke.
Orville Atkins

[Kevin]

Another factor to figure into bonking is blood sugar levels. I have experienced serious troubles (wobbling, light-headedness, disorientation) after only 20 minutes of running when my blood sugar levels were too low.

[Zat0pek]

>>>I'm sure you've read or even seen it many times before, the womens marathon in '80
>being the most egregious example of negligence by officials.

Not to engage in the picking of nits, but I believe you are referring to the Gabriella Anderson-Schiess collapse in the '84 Oly marathon. There was no women's marathon in '80.

And you are completely correct about the negligence of the officials. I'd be curious to see how her health has been in the years since then.

[Usher]

<<< Male crazy limb thing? Jim Peters, Vancouver British Empire Games 1954 and Etienne Gailly 1948 Oly marathon to name two. Julie Moss was leading the 1982 Hawaii Ironman when she had to crawl the last 100 feet. It inspired a whole generation of triathletes. >>>

Just before the 1972 Olympics, ABC did an excellent program on the marathon over the Olympic years, narrated by Jim McKay. This was back in the days before people Gallowalked marathons in 5 hours, and there was much more of a mystique about the marathon distance.

The one scene that caught my attention was the coverage of Gailly's finish at the 1948 Olympics. He comes into the stadium just starting to wobble, two runners pass him up on the last lap, he goes from a gold to a bronze just like that, and his body is so depleted that there's not a damn thing he can do about it.

Right then I knew that there was something special about this race, and that the toll the marathon takes on the body was a much different animal than the bear I regularly fought running the 880 in HS track meets. When I ran marathons a few years later and got to experience first-hand the physical demands of the race, I thought back to what it must've been like to push to that limit. I certainly understood why competitors don't respond when passed late in a marathon, and I'm not sure many of today's "marathoners" who don't come close to those limits have the proper appreciation for the event.

I don't know if there's a video of that program around, but I still have a vivid memory of how watching that 1948 Olympic marathon finish brought tears to my eyes as chills ran down my spine. Thinking about it now, 32 years later, it still does.

[Kuykendall]

<<But I'm curious about something - we see this occasionally at the elite level - but always (to my recollection) with women. I don't recall any men (elite level) going into the crazy limb thing when their tank runs dry.>>

Ed Eyestone fell apart at the end of the 1992 Olympic Trials 10000 in New Orleans, I think it was, and stumbled really wobbly into the infield and DNFd. My memory is that T&FN tour fans were yelling for somebody to get a doctor to him.

[Dutra]

><<< Male crazy limb thing? Jim Peters, Vancouver British Empire Games 1954 and
>Etienne Gailly 1948 Oly marathon to name two. Julie Moss was leading the 1982
>Hawaii Ironman when she had to crawl the last 100 feet. It inspired a whole
>generation of triathletes. >>>

Just before the 1972 Olympics, ABC did an
>excellent program on the marathon over the Olympic years, narrated by Jim
>McKay. This was back in the days before people Gallowalked marathons in 5
>hours, and there was much more of a mystique about the marathon distance.
>

The one scene that caught my attention was the coverage of Gailly's finish
>at the 1948 Olympics. He comes into the stadium just starting to wobble, two
>runners pass him up on the last lap, he goes from a gold to a bronze just like
>that, and his body is so depleted that there's not a damn thing he can do
>about it.

Right then I knew that there was something special about this
>race, and that the toll the marathon takes on the body was a much different
>animal than the bear I regularly fought running the 880 in HS track meets.
>When I ran marathons a few years later and got to experience first-hand the
>e physical demands of the race, I thought back to what it must've been like to
>push to that limit. I certainly understood why competitors don't respond when
>passed late in a marathon, and I'm not sure many of today's "marathoners" who
>don't come close to those limits have the proper appreciation for the event.
>

I don't know if there's a video of that program around, but I still have
>ve a vivid memory of how watching that 1948 Olympic marathon finish brought
>tears to my eyes as chills ran down my spine. Thinking about it now, 32 years
>later, it still does.>>

IIRC the Gailly scenario is shown on the Greenspan video Olympiad 'The Marathon'.

[MJD]

I was pacing my wife in a race a couple of weeks ago. A very hot day and a guy started bonking a couple of hundred yards ahead of me with about a mile to go. He looked like he was handicapped. Arms all over the place and he was all over the road. It was scaring the hell out of me. There was a woman with him but she didn't seem too concerned(idiot). When we finally caught up to him, I made him stop and sit down and a guy on a bike was just coming by from the other direction and I wouldn't leave until I made sure he would help him. Apparently the guy who finished second was bonking for the last couple of hundred yards from the finish too and there were a lot of people at the finish line and no one went out to see how he was. He collapsed five feet from the finish line. We are talking about the 8.1 Shore to Shore Oliphant to Wiarton race so there wasn't a lot on the line and there should have been more concern for the guy's state of health. Two guys got taken to the hospital. Don't know if it was them or not.

[Helen S]

There was a worthwhile article in a recent Runners World about a HS runner dying as a result of heat during a summer training run last year. He was found in the bushes near his car. It certainly gives me thought when I head out the door on a hot day.

[nevetsllim]

AS probably knows about it but Kate Smythe in the Commonwealth Games marathon.

In Atlanta, Tumo Turbo of Ethiopia got with about 400m of the finish and collapsed onto the infield and DNF.

The problem with SFH and Paula is anti-imflammatories. I still get really sad when I see the Athens Olympic marathon.

[oneill]

There's some doubt about Dorando Pietri's "running out of gas" in the 1908 London Olympic Marathon. Although I cannot cite the source, his handler (each runner had a bicyclist accompanying him) was later credited with an account of supplying Pietri with wine (!) along the way, rather than water, and a stiff shot of brandy to encourage him over the last few miles.

In the early days of running, these nostrums and others were used. There are accounts of brandy, raw eggs, blackstrap molasses and even strychnine - and God knows what else - administered to runners. The wonder is that there weren't more collapses or even deaths.

[Terry Ortego]

Let me begin with a disclaimer. I am a doctor, but not a sports doc. I'm a gastroenterologist, so I may not know my arse from a hole in the you know what.

Hyperthermia is the most likely scenario that everyone in describing. Like many other parameters (sodium levels, potassium, blood glucose) out body operates in a relatively narrow range temperature wise. With regards to high temps we attempt to achieve homeostasis by either conduction, convection and evaporation. Conduction, as you know, is the direct contact of your body with another substance, like laying on the ground or in a pool of water. Needless to say, not a common way to keep one's temp down while running. Convection is the transfer of heat into the surroundings. We convect body heat off by just the natural flow of air by us when we run. Some less efficiently (personal pace 9-10 min miles) than others. Convection is increased when running into a head wind. But most importantly we evaporate body heat by perspiring.

Now consider all the variables a) temperature during the race (obviously the greater the temp the less convection and vice versa), b)humidity (effects the rate of evaporation c) wind speed, d) runners hydration status e) fitness level and you can get into trouble easily.

I am, being kind to myself, big for a runner (6' 210). During recent runs here in Fayetteville, Arkansas, at temp 90-95F, humidity 80+%, I lose 2-3 pounds easily in 30 minutes, despite having an available camelback with fluids.

Hyperthermia, is a medical emergency, at temps greater than 105-106, you're starting to fry structural and enzymatic proteins. If you ever see some one who may be hyperthermic, call 911, and do anything to start cooling them down (shade, cold water externallly over the body, covering with ice). I remember distinctly seeing patients with temps >107 being placed in tubs filled with ice. Yow! But it saved their lives.

[MJD]

Looks like I am right to get scared when I see it happening to someone.

"Alberto Salazar ran the 1978 Falmouth race in extreme heat as a 20 year old collegian. Suffering from heat stroke, he pushed himself to the point of collapse. His body temperature skyrocketed to 108. He was plunged into a bucket of ice. When he didn't respond, he was given his last rights by a priest."

http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/6/6_1/206.shtml

[SQUACKEE]

Ask BOB SOTH

Are you insane, ask Mojo!

[Daisy]

Looks like I am right to get scared when I see it happening to someone.

"Alberto Salazar ran the 1978 Falmouth race in extreme heat as a 20 year old collegian. Suffering from heat stroke, he pushed himself to the point of collapse. His body temperature skyrocketed to 108. He was plunged into a bucket of ice. When he didn't respond, he was given his last rights by a priest."

http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/6/6_1/206.shtml

Some guy in Australia overheated like this and his cell membranes started to get leaky. Short version was his tissues started to digest themselves (compartmentalisation of the nasty enzymes was compromised). It sounds worse than flesh eating bacteria.

I can't find a version of the article with google so i'm not sure if the guy recovered.

[Pego]

Looks like I am right to get scared when I see it happening to someone.

"Alberto Salazar ran the 1978 Falmouth race in extreme heat as a 20 year old collegian. Suffering from heat stroke, he pushed himself to the point of collapse. His body temperature skyrocketed to 108. He was plunged into a bucket of ice. When he didn't respond, he was given his last rights by a priest."

http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/6/6_1/206.shtml

Some guy in Australia overheated like this and his cell membranes started to get leaky. Short version was his tissues started to digest themselves (compartmentalisation of the nasty enzymes was compromised). It sounds worse than flesh eating bacteria.

I can't find a version of the article with google so i'm not sure if the guy recovered.

Either the story's pathology is correct and he died, or he lived, making the story bogus.

[AS]

Australian marathoner Kate Smythe did have a pretty nasty last lap of the track at this years Comm Games... but that close to the finish it's probably safe to assume she wasn't doing any permanent damage.

Story here:
http://www.theage.com.au/news/athletics/running-on-empty/2006/03/19/1142703223907.html?page=fullpage#contentSwap1



Quote (from a radio interview):

Mick O'Regan: So really, what do you think your body's doing at that point? Just shutting down to sort of - ?

Kate Smyth: It was, yes. It was going into obviously the system of looking after the major organs. So the blood flow had gone from my legs, my feet were totally blue, even an hour and a half later. So all the blood basically goes to your vital organs to keep you alive. And everything else that's peripheral, sort of shuts down. And hence why I think the muscles in your legs, the blood was naturally the heart was trying to push the blood through to the muscles, but at the same time, the brain was suffering somewhat, because the messages couldn't get through to the legs, simply because the heat was in the core temperature of your body.

http://www.abc.net.au/rn/sportsfactor/stories/2006/1597869.htm

[Daisy]

Looks like I am right to get scared when I see it happening to someone.

"Alberto Salazar ran the 1978 Falmouth race in extreme heat as a 20 year old collegian. Suffering from heat stroke, he pushed himself to the point of collapse. His body temperature skyrocketed to 108. He was plunged into a bucket of ice. When he didn't respond, he was given his last rights by a priest."

http://www.coolrunning.com/engine/6/6_1/206.shtml

Some guy in Australia overheated like this and his cell membranes started to get leaky. Short version was his tissues started to digest themselves (compartmentalisation of the nasty enzymes was compromised). It sounds worse than flesh eating bacteria.

I can't find a version of the article with google so i'm not sure if the guy recovered.

Either the story's pathology is correct and he died, or he lived, making the story bogus.

I'm quite sure the pathology is correct. I read that his lysosomes were leaking. It sounded terrible. I guess he did die then. i wish i could find the original article.

[AS]

Is this story you were referring to?

"Mark Dorrity was a keen athlete who included a 4 km run in his daily exercise routine as well as a 1 km swim about three times each week. He was fit. In 1988 he entered an 8 km fun run in Wagga Wagga, NSW. The run was cancelled by the organisers because the temperature was expected to be 42°C. Mark decided to do the run anyway. Unfortunately, this turned out to be a serious error of judgment. During the run Mark collapsed suffering heat exhaustion and dehydration. He was rushed to hospital where doctors battled to reduce his soaring body temperature which reached a dangerous 42.8°C. Mark survived the ordeal, but he did not come away unscathed. Normal human body temperature is 37°C and when the body’s temperature becomes too high, blood proteins become denatured and the blood coagulates (this is similar to the curdling of boiled milk). When this happens the blood can no longer pass through the capillaries and so it cannot deliver nutrients to the body cells or remove wastes from those cells. All parts of the body can be affected. Mark might have sustained less damage if he had taken frequent drinks during the run, but he became dehydrated and did not replace the lost fluid, so his blood became viscous (sticky and thick). This reduced the blood flow through blood vessels and further reduced nutrient fl ow and waste removal. This caused Mark’s heart to stop and, as a result, he also sustained some brain damage. In addition, the overheating of Mark’s muscle cells resulted in a rare condition known as ‘rhabdomyolysis’. This is an extreme condition in which muscles become fatigued and dehydrated; the muscle cells literally liquefy and die. Dead cells cannot be revived. The dead muscle tissue in Mark’s left leg became gangrenous and was amputated. The dying muscle cells released toxic chemicals into the bloodstream and caused kidney failure. Overall Mark was in a coma for three months."

Source:http://www.hi.com.au/qldsciproj/pdf/eLearning10b.pdf#search=%22muscle%20meltdown%20fun%20run%22

He lost a leg:

[Daisy]

Wow, great find, that is exactly the person i was thinking of. So i guess the technical term is ‘rhabdomyolysis’. Sounds like he was very lucky.

[AS]

I also found a cached story from ncaa.org that discusses further instances of rhabdomyolysis:

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:r8aFH_rDb8cJ:www.ncaa.org/news/1998/19981026/active/3535n28.html+rhabdomyolysis+running&hl=en&gl=au&ct=clnk&cd=9

Wonder what ever came of the research/registry?

[James Fields]

". . . Gailly's finish at the 1948 Olympics. He comes into the stadium just starting to wobble, two runners pass him up on the last lap, he goes from a gold to a bronze just like that . . ."
------------
Wasn't the precipitating factor in Gailly's drop to bronze the officiating error in which he was directed to tun the wrong way when he led the field into the stadium? The error was detected in time to keep subsequent runners on the correct / shorter course to finish line.

By the time Gailly was redirected, to reverse course, Cabrera and Richards were ahead of him on the stadium track enroute to the correct finish location. For a weary Gailly, that gaffe may have exacerbated the stresses accumulated in his preceding 26 miles.

1. Delfor Cabrera, ARG 2:35.52
2. Tom Richards, GBR 2:35.08
3. Etienne Gailly, BEL 2:35.34

(I recall Gailly being described at that time as a teenager but, although he looked young, I did not see accompanying data to confirm his age.)