yes, you can discuss Obamacare


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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby TN1965 » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:01 pm

Flumpy wrote:Can someone in very general terms explain to those of us from outside of the USA what the problem is with the idea of somekind of affordable healthcare system?


Okay, I will try...

There are people who believe they should be without health insurance... young and healthy, and confident they will not need health care. They think individual mandate is violation of their freedom.

Among those who already have good insurance through their employers, some believe more people having access to health care means more waiting time at hospitals. They also think their hard earned privilege is diluted by those "lazy" people who don't deserve it.

Then there are also those who believe it will raise the cost for small business owners. I could understand this argument if there were employer mandate. But how does individual mandate raise the cost for employers? I don't know.
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby kuha » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:13 pm

TN1965 wrote:There are people who believe they should be without health insurance... young and healthy, and confident they will not need health care. They think individual mandate is violation of their freedom.

Among those who already have good insurance through their employers, some believe more people having access to health care means more waiting time at hospitals. They also think their hard earned privilege is diluted by those "lazy" people who don't deserve it.



1) To be fair, I doubt many "believe that they should be without" it; they simply feel that they either can't afford it or are willing to roll the dice that they won't need it. The "freedom" thing has always seemed like the phoniest issue of all time. I don't have the "freedom" to throw a jury summons in the rubbish; or to drive without a license; etc., etc. True freedom isn't a 13-year old's adolescent fantasy of "just leave me alone"; it's a genuine balance of rights and responsibilities, together.

2) The truth is that nearly everyone has "access to health care"--if you're talking about emergency room visits, etc. The problem is that the conscientious people end up paying the bill for themselves AND for the deadbeats and freeloaders. Are "we" willing, as a society to say that someone should be left to suffer/die on the sidewalk rather than be admitted to an ER without insurance? Seriously, are we? If we're NOT willing to say that, we're acknowledging the fact of some sort of communal responsibility and standards--which very easily make a "mandate" justifiable...on every level.
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby TN1965 » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:30 pm

kuha wrote:Are "we" willing, as a society to say that someone should be left to suffer/die on the sidewalk rather than be admitted to an ER without insurance?


Did you see that GOP debate in which CNN's Wolf Blitzer asked this question? Someone in the audience shouted "yeah, let them die!" and there was huge applause. :shock:

None of the candidates openly agreed, but apparently many GOP voters do.
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby Flumpy » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:36 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
Flumpy wrote:Can someone in very general terms explain to those of us from outside of the USA what the problem is with the idea of somekind of affordable healthcare system?


Well, if you haven't been paying attention, we are now moving to a more affordable healthcare system. We still have a way, but the Supreme Court finally letting ACA be the law of the land is a big start.


Of course but there are still many people who are vehemently against it despite having no coherent or rational reason for being so. Presumably not all of these are mentally unhinged so I was wondering what the sensible counter argument was?
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby kuha » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:38 pm

TN1965 wrote:
kuha wrote:Are "we" willing, as a society to say that someone should be left to suffer/die on the sidewalk rather than be admitted to an ER without insurance?


Did you see that GOP debate in which CNN's Wolf Blitzer asked this question? Someone in the audience shouted "yeah, let them die!" and there was huge applause. :shock:

None of the candidates openly agreed, but apparently many GOP voters do.


Yes, I did see that. And was properly appalled. The question is: should that radical viewpoint (let's be honest, there's nothing "conservative" about that view) be taken as a social norm or standard? Only other radicals would say "yes" and the US is not a radical country.
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby mump boy » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:39 pm

But isn't the whole point that if everyone had to buy some insurance it will be cheaper for everyone ??
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:43 pm

Yes, sport fans, that is correct....
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby JRM » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:56 pm

kuha wrote:The question is: should that radical viewpoint (let's be honest, there's nothing "conservative" about that view) be taken as a social norm or standard? Only other radicals would say "yes" and the US is not a radical country.


Not to distract from the conversation, but I think it's important to acknowledge "that" opinion is becoming emblematic of the (neo)conservative viewpoint. So far, we've had audiences rabidly cheering the death of a tax-paying patient, booing a gay soldier who served in Iraq, labeling the Affordable Healthcare Act as "communist, socialist, unAmerican,", calling for the death of Obama (McCain-Palin rally), etc...

Where does the "normal" part end and the "radical" part being? There's quite a slippery slope here.
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby Flumpy » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:58 pm

TN1965 wrote:
Flumpy wrote:Can someone in very general terms explain to those of us from outside of the USA what the problem is with the idea of somekind of affordable healthcare system?


Okay, I will try...

There are people who believe they should be without health insurance... young and healthy, and confident they will not need health care. They think individual mandate is violation of their freedom.

Among those who already have good insurance through their employers, some believe more people having access to health care means more waiting time at hospitals. They also think their hard earned privilege is diluted by those "lazy" people who don't deserve it.

Then there are also those who believe it will raise the cost for small business owners. I could understand this argument if there were employer mandate. But how does individual mandate raise the cost for employers? I don't know.


Thankyou that makes some kind of sense.

So the basic reason is selfishness?
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby kuha » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:58 pm

JRM wrote:
kuha wrote:The question is: should that radical viewpoint (let's be honest, there's nothing "conservative" about that view) be taken as a social norm or standard? Only other radicals would say "yes" and the US is not a radical country.


Not to distract from the conversation, but I think it's important to acknowledge "that" opinion is becoming emblematic of the (neo)conservative viewpoint. So far, we've had audiences rabidly cheering the death of a tax-paying patient, booing a gay soldier who served in Iraq, labeling the Affordable Healthcare Act as "communist, socialist, unAmerican,", calling for the death of Obama (McCain-Palin rally), etc...

Where does the "normal" part end and the "radical" part being? There's quite a slippery slope here.


Good question. My guess is that this represents something like 20% of the population--but probably not very much more at all. Far TOO high a percentage, for sure, but not a viewpoint that deserves to win the day.
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby TN1965 » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:59 pm

mump boy wrote:But isn't the whole point that if everyone had to buy some insurance it will be cheaper for everyone ??


It will be cheaper on average. Not every single one, I'm afraid... :(
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby Flumpy » Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:03 pm

kuha wrote:Good question. My guess is that this represents something like 20% of the population--but probably not very much more at all. Far TOO high a percentage, for sure, but not a viewpoint that deserves to win the day.


And yet a viewpoint that gets an awful lot of attention.

As a foreigner it's genuinely worrying that this is the America that we so often see in the media.

I don't believe that you're all gun toting, bible bashing, homophobic, racist, nut jobs but that is they way the country is often portrayed and there has to be some truth in the stereotype.
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:07 pm

mump boy wrote:What do those that oppose the Affordable Care Act propose in it's place ? or are they happy with millions of people having no or very limited health care ?


Nothing and yes...
    If Republicans really wanted to replace Obamacare with some more “market-friendly” alternative, then there’s a simple way they could go about it. They could promise to repeal the law only if they packaged the repeal with a replacement that did not increase the number of uninsured. But they’ll never do that, because the magic, cheaper free-market alternative does not exist, and the GOP has no interest in diverting resources to cover the poor and sick.

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/07/wi ... -plan.html
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