yes, you can discuss Obamacare


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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby jeremyp » Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:33 am

My 2 cents are: 1. We the U.S. are the only developed nation without a national health care system, and those that have it would not give it up, and for the most part like it. 2. Everybody agrees that health care needs to be affordable and available. 3. No-one agrees on how to do it.

The GOP has no plan to do anyhting.
The Dems have a plan that is seriously flawed, but, in my opinion, fixeable.

Ergo let's not throw out the baby with the bath water, let's work together to get something that works.

That means: Everybody will have to contribute. Everyone will have to sacrifice. Health insurers must be non profit. There must be a government option (single payor or medicare expansion).

Massachusetts has a plan like Obamacare. Let's hear from them.
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Jul 04, 2012 8:50 am

jeremyp wrote: No-one agrees on how to do it.


That is really not true. Obamacare is primarily made of Republican ideas, and for the most part is a copy of Romneycare. The mandate in particular is a Heritage Foundation idea.

The problem is the Republicans are against everything Obama wants to do.

http://www.examiner.com/article/mitch-m ... obama-2012
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Re: YES, YOU CAN DISCUSS OBAMACARE.....

Postby JRM » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:26 am

Conor Dary wrote:The metric system and the dollar coin thing are two different problems. We do quite well with the imperial system. It works for 99% of the population.


Actually, this is exactly the point. "We" don't want to change because it works for "us". In reality, however, it doesn't work at all. It hurts the US. The US is a lone hold-out here, and the Imperial system is seen domestically as the "right" (read: American) way. It's a snub at the rest of the world. Furthermore, as I've argued before, it puts US students at a big disadvantage in the sciences. I can't count the number of times I've had kids in the lab converting 10 cm = 10,000 m. It's not only the measurement system, but also the orders of magnitude. The Imperial system does not necessitate this education.
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby jeremyp » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:28 am

Conor Dary wrote:
jeremyp wrote: No-one agrees on how to do it.


That is really not true. Obamacare is primarily made of Republican ideas, and for the most part is a copy of Romneycare. The mandate in particular is a Heritage Foundation idea.

The problem is the Republicans are against everything Obama wants to do.

http://www.examiner.com/article/mitch-m ... obama-2012


We're saying the same thin just differently. The main reason most developed nations have health care is due to their political system allowing the ruling party to enact laws, which when seen to be sensible are seldom appealed. The labour party crammed through the National health svc in the UK and the conservatives tweaked it but were loathe to kill it. In a parliamentary system the party gets to do it's thing. In a system such as ours of late gridlock is the problem. I'm glad Obama had enough votes to get health care passed, now we need to tweak it.
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Re: YES, YOU CAN DISCUSS OBAMACARE.....

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Jul 04, 2012 10:37 am

JRM wrote:
Conor Dary wrote:The metric system and the dollar coin thing are two different problems. We do quite well with the imperial system. It works for 99% of the population.


Actually, this is exactly the point. "We" don't want to change because it works for "us". In reality, however, it doesn't work at all. It hurts the US. The US is a lone hold-out here, and the Imperial system is seen domestically as the "right" (read: American) way. It's a snub at the rest of the world. Furthermore, as I've argued before, it puts US students at a big disadvantage in the sciences. I can't count the number of times I've had kids in the lab converting 10 cm = 10,000 m. It's not only the measurement system, but also the orders of magnitude. The Imperial system does not necessitate this education.


Being in mathematics you don't have to tell me that the metric is superior in many ways.

And as for being a 'snub to the rest of the world' I am afraid that is probably a big selling point these days.

But the reality is it does work for everyday living for most people. And until that changes I don't see things being much different.

As for putting American kids at a disadvantage in science education, well that is only part of it.
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby TN1965 » Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:25 am

Conor Dary wrote:The problem is the Republicans are against everything Obama wants to do.


Then if Obama proposes to repleal the ACA, maybe the GOP will try to protect it. :mrgreen:

Seriously, the uninsured people are far less likely to vote than the insured people. And those who do, most of them vote for the Democrats. So the GOP knows they are not alienating many potential voters by not proposing any alternatives.

Things work just fine for people who vote for the Republicans.
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby Flumpy » Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:34 am

Can someone in very general terms explain to those of us from outside of the USA what the problem is with the idea of somekind of affordable healthcare system?

The National Healthcare System of NHS as it's known in the UK is the countries most beloved institution. Woe betide and politicians that try and tamper with it. There is barely anyone on either side of the political divide that disagrees with it in principal.

In it's most basic form the population pays a bit more in tax and in return gets free healthcare for the rest of their lives? What's to dislike???

I'm sure there must be intelligent, rational people in the US who have well founded reasons for not supporting the idea, unfortunately all we ever hear about are the mentalists like.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IrnxA2sq ... _embedded#!
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:48 am

Flumpy wrote:Can someone in very general terms explain to those of us from outside of the USA what the problem is with the idea of somekind of affordable healthcare system?


Well, if you haven't been paying attention, we are now moving to a more affordable healthcare system. We still have a way, but the Supreme Court finally letting ACA be the law of the land is a big start.
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby kuha » Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:54 am

A good friend of mine just returned from a trip (partly on bike) thru Scotland. A week ago he was on a busy road, tried to get up on a sidewalk, but was thrown off the bike and pretty well got his face smashed up. Someone called an ambulance and he was off to a hospital. He wasn't fully with it, but remembers asking, sheepishly, 'About much, more or less, is this going to cost me?' The ambulance guy smiled and held up his hand, with thumb and first finger indicating 0. My friend was still bloody but began feeling a WHOLE lot better right then...

Our system up to 2009 was/is a national disgrace. The ACA certainly has flaws but is a rational and significant step toward something far better.
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby Daisy » Wed Jul 04, 2012 11:57 am

kuha wrote: The ambulance guy smiled and held up his hand, with thumb and first finger indicating 0. My friend was still bloody but began feeling a WHOLE lot better right then...

It's outrageous that British tax payers have to bear the burden of your friends inability to jump a bike over the curb.

No wonder Britain is bankrupt. I think they should seriously consider banning all accident prone foreigners from entering the UK.
Last edited by Daisy on Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby TN1965 » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:01 pm

Flumpy wrote:Can someone in very general terms explain to those of us from outside of the USA what the problem is with the idea of somekind of affordable healthcare system?


Okay, I will try...

There are people who believe they should be without health insurance... young and healthy, and confident they will not need health care. They think individual mandate is violation of their freedom.

Among those who already have good insurance through their employers, some believe more people having access to health care means more waiting time at hospitals. They also think their hard earned privilege is diluted by those "lazy" people who don't deserve it.

Then there are also those who believe it will raise the cost for small business owners. I could understand this argument if there were employer mandate. But how does individual mandate raise the cost for employers? I don't know.
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby kuha » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:13 pm

TN1965 wrote:There are people who believe they should be without health insurance... young and healthy, and confident they will not need health care. They think individual mandate is violation of their freedom.

Among those who already have good insurance through their employers, some believe more people having access to health care means more waiting time at hospitals. They also think their hard earned privilege is diluted by those "lazy" people who don't deserve it.



1) To be fair, I doubt many "believe that they should be without" it; they simply feel that they either can't afford it or are willing to roll the dice that they won't need it. The "freedom" thing has always seemed like the phoniest issue of all time. I don't have the "freedom" to throw a jury summons in the rubbish; or to drive without a license; etc., etc. True freedom isn't a 13-year old's adolescent fantasy of "just leave me alone"; it's a genuine balance of rights and responsibilities, together.

2) The truth is that nearly everyone has "access to health care"--if you're talking about emergency room visits, etc. The problem is that the conscientious people end up paying the bill for themselves AND for the deadbeats and freeloaders. Are "we" willing, as a society to say that someone should be left to suffer/die on the sidewalk rather than be admitted to an ER without insurance? Seriously, are we? If we're NOT willing to say that, we're acknowledging the fact of some sort of communal responsibility and standards--which very easily make a "mandate" justifiable...on every level.
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby TN1965 » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:30 pm

kuha wrote:Are "we" willing, as a society to say that someone should be left to suffer/die on the sidewalk rather than be admitted to an ER without insurance?


Did you see that GOP debate in which CNN's Wolf Blitzer asked this question? Someone in the audience shouted "yeah, let them die!" and there was huge applause. :shock:

None of the candidates openly agreed, but apparently many GOP voters do.
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby Flumpy » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:36 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
Flumpy wrote:Can someone in very general terms explain to those of us from outside of the USA what the problem is with the idea of somekind of affordable healthcare system?


Well, if you haven't been paying attention, we are now moving to a more affordable healthcare system. We still have a way, but the Supreme Court finally letting ACA be the law of the land is a big start.


Of course but there are still many people who are vehemently against it despite having no coherent or rational reason for being so. Presumably not all of these are mentally unhinged so I was wondering what the sensible counter argument was?
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby kuha » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:38 pm

TN1965 wrote:
kuha wrote:Are "we" willing, as a society to say that someone should be left to suffer/die on the sidewalk rather than be admitted to an ER without insurance?


Did you see that GOP debate in which CNN's Wolf Blitzer asked this question? Someone in the audience shouted "yeah, let them die!" and there was huge applause. :shock:

None of the candidates openly agreed, but apparently many GOP voters do.


Yes, I did see that. And was properly appalled. The question is: should that radical viewpoint (let's be honest, there's nothing "conservative" about that view) be taken as a social norm or standard? Only other radicals would say "yes" and the US is not a radical country.
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby mump boy » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:39 pm

But isn't the whole point that if everyone had to buy some insurance it will be cheaper for everyone ??
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:43 pm

Yes, sport fans, that is correct....
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby JRM » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:56 pm

kuha wrote:The question is: should that radical viewpoint (let's be honest, there's nothing "conservative" about that view) be taken as a social norm or standard? Only other radicals would say "yes" and the US is not a radical country.


Not to distract from the conversation, but I think it's important to acknowledge "that" opinion is becoming emblematic of the (neo)conservative viewpoint. So far, we've had audiences rabidly cheering the death of a tax-paying patient, booing a gay soldier who served in Iraq, labeling the Affordable Healthcare Act as "communist, socialist, unAmerican,", calling for the death of Obama (McCain-Palin rally), etc...

Where does the "normal" part end and the "radical" part being? There's quite a slippery slope here.
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby Flumpy » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:58 pm

TN1965 wrote:
Flumpy wrote:Can someone in very general terms explain to those of us from outside of the USA what the problem is with the idea of somekind of affordable healthcare system?


Okay, I will try...

There are people who believe they should be without health insurance... young and healthy, and confident they will not need health care. They think individual mandate is violation of their freedom.

Among those who already have good insurance through their employers, some believe more people having access to health care means more waiting time at hospitals. They also think their hard earned privilege is diluted by those "lazy" people who don't deserve it.

Then there are also those who believe it will raise the cost for small business owners. I could understand this argument if there were employer mandate. But how does individual mandate raise the cost for employers? I don't know.


Thankyou that makes some kind of sense.

So the basic reason is selfishness?
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby kuha » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:58 pm

JRM wrote:
kuha wrote:The question is: should that radical viewpoint (let's be honest, there's nothing "conservative" about that view) be taken as a social norm or standard? Only other radicals would say "yes" and the US is not a radical country.


Not to distract from the conversation, but I think it's important to acknowledge "that" opinion is becoming emblematic of the (neo)conservative viewpoint. So far, we've had audiences rabidly cheering the death of a tax-paying patient, booing a gay soldier who served in Iraq, labeling the Affordable Healthcare Act as "communist, socialist, unAmerican,", calling for the death of Obama (McCain-Palin rally), etc...

Where does the "normal" part end and the "radical" part being? There's quite a slippery slope here.


Good question. My guess is that this represents something like 20% of the population--but probably not very much more at all. Far TOO high a percentage, for sure, but not a viewpoint that deserves to win the day.
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby TN1965 » Wed Jul 04, 2012 12:59 pm

mump boy wrote:But isn't the whole point that if everyone had to buy some insurance it will be cheaper for everyone ??


It will be cheaper on average. Not every single one, I'm afraid... :(
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby Flumpy » Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:03 pm

kuha wrote:Good question. My guess is that this represents something like 20% of the population--but probably not very much more at all. Far TOO high a percentage, for sure, but not a viewpoint that deserves to win the day.


And yet a viewpoint that gets an awful lot of attention.

As a foreigner it's genuinely worrying that this is the America that we so often see in the media.

I don't believe that you're all gun toting, bible bashing, homophobic, racist, nut jobs but that is they way the country is often portrayed and there has to be some truth in the stereotype.
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Re: yes, you can discuss Obamacare

Postby Conor Dary » Wed Jul 04, 2012 1:07 pm

mump boy wrote:What do those that oppose the Affordable Care Act propose in it's place ? or are they happy with millions of people having no or very limited health care ?


Nothing and yes...
    If Republicans really wanted to replace Obamacare with some more “market-friendly” alternative, then there’s a simple way they could go about it. They could promise to repeal the law only if they packaged the repeal with a replacement that did not increase the number of uninsured. But they’ll never do that, because the magic, cheaper free-market alternative does not exist, and the GOP has no interest in diverting resources to cover the poor and sick.

http://nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/07/wi ... -plan.html
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