Normally open July 4th only---the one day a year when partisan politics, religion, etc. are acceptable topics on this Board. (The 2012 window is now closed; thanks for playing.)
SQUACKEE wrote:I think I might kill this thread but I have to weigh in on this pray thingy. After what God allowed in the holocaust, it would appear that prayer is rather ineffective.
I fit more in Daisy's camp, although I grew up as a 'preacher's kid. However, the comment made about prayer for some people 'giving them strength' could be seen as a factor in a number of the (all-to-few) escape stories in the holocaust. I just got back from the wedding of my wife's (second) cousin. I talked with a number of the family members that came over from Europe. There were various stories for strength, sometimes at least loosely linked to prayer, among those few survivors (in one case, the only one of ten siblings). Much of my wife's very immediate family were lucky, often in the assistance that they received; the rest not so much.
SQUACKEE wrote:I think I might kill this thread but I have to weigh in on this pray thingy. After what God allowed in the holocaust, it would appear that prayer is rather ineffective.
I fit more in Daisy's camp, although I grew up as a 'preacher's kid. However, the comment made about prayer for some people 'giving them strength' could be seen as a factor in a number of the (all-to-few) escape stories in the holocaust. I just got back from the wedding of my wife's (second) cousin. I talked with a number of the family members that came over from Europe. There were various stories for strength, sometimes at least loosely linked to prayer, among those few survivors (in one case, the only one of ten siblings). Much of my wife's very immediate family were lucky, often in the assistance that they received; the rest not so much.
Prayer is part of the human condition, there are no atheists on a jetliner that's going into a nose dive. Belief in prayer would certainly help people in times of trouble. I have prayed to a God I dont believe in.....just in case.
Pego wrote:Endorphins are opiates, they help you to tolerate the pain. What hurts is accumulation of metabolic byproducts in your tissues, those old creeking joints, those old inflexible ligaments...
Then either my opiates are too weak or my met-byproducts are too strong, cuz this mythical creature called 'runners high' . . . there ain't no sucha thang, that I'm aware of. The only thing that feels good to me in exercise is its cessation!
Marlow wrote:Q - Why are banging your head against the wall?
At the risk of reducing you to a cliche, you might be immune to the pleasure of endorphins because of the fact that you are a sugar eating, easy going teetoler who is comfortable in his own skin and doesnt suffer from mucho pathos and self-hatred.
When a stress puppet, with depression and self hatred gets his fix of endorphins, all is right with the world.
SQUACKEE wrote:At the risk of reducing you to a cliche, you might be immune to the pleasure of endorphins because of the fact that you are a sugar eating, easy going teetoler who is comfortable in his own skin and doesnt suffer from mucho pathos and self-hatred.
Avante says: It's more about God/Lord/Jesus giving them the strength/ability to do what they do. As opposed to..."He sure likes the Broncos".
Me, I can see praying to the Almighty to give people the strength/ability to deal with tragedies or illness or grief... but praying for the leg swing to convert of field goal? That's outside my personal evaluation of appropriate prayer.
Avante says: It's more about God/Lord/Jesus giving them the strength/ability to do what they do. As opposed to..."He sure likes the Broncos".
Me, I can see praying to the Almighty to give people the strength/ability to deal with tragedies or illness or grief... but praying for the leg swing to convert of field goal? That's outside my personal evaluation of appropriate prayer.
SQUACKEE wrote:...prayers that ask for anything of real substance, like life and death of your child, are not answered.
Would this mean that no prayers are answered? I think many would disagree with that premise.
No one knows if prayers are answered, that's why it's called faith. What we do know is millions of people's prayers to be spared the gas chamber were not answered.
Oh please, MANY people can and do attest to answered prayers, myself included. Not just one but many. It is only that often nonbelievers or those who simply are lacking in faith are in denial because it is not happening to them and hence judge that it happens to no one. I really feel sorry for those who feel like you do.
odelltrclan wrote:Oh please, MANY people can and do attest to answered prayers, myself included. Not just one but many.
Some would suggest you look at all the unanswered prayers and compare the ratio of answered to unanswered and see if that equals the likelihood of the events happening by 'chance' (or, more accurately, the way the events in the universe had already determined them to turn out).
odelltrclan wrote:Oh please, MANY people can and do attest to answered prayers, myself included. Not just one but many.
Some would suggest you look at all the unanswered prayers and compare the ratio of answered to unanswered and see if that equals the likelihood of the events happening by 'chance' (or, more accurately, the way the events in the universe had already determined them to turn out).
Perhaps, yet what would you expect from someone who themselves never experienced such things? Exactly what they do. They make attempts to rationalize and explain away or trivialize the experiences. Too bad for them. I wish I could elaborate more on my own experiences but this is not the right time or place but I can say there was NO "chance" or maybes involved and I sincerely hope some of the skeptics here can someday share similar circumstances and leave it at that. back to Tebow? Go Broncos!
odelltrclan wrote:They make attempts to rationalize and explain away or trivialize the experiences. Too bad for them.
I can address this from an atheists perspective.
The truth is I rarely try to rationalise an experience, it is what it is. Or as Marlow alludes to, we are stuck with the genetic roll of the dice, or the natural disaster roll of the dice.
I never really think of things from the perspective of a God, and thus to trivialise prayer, or other peoples experiences with prayer, is not really on my mind either.
As a biologist I am in awe of all life, even bacteria; it makes every second we have precious.
As to morals, I'd like to think I contribute some good, and certainly borrow from all religions. Turn the other check, love they neighbor, do unto others as you wish done unto you. These are powerful lessons that are the foundation of a civil society. But I am also at liberty to ignore other lessons.
odelltrclan wrote:They make attempts to rationalize and explain away or trivialize the experiences. Too bad for them.
I can address this from an atheists perspective.
The truth is I rarely try to rationalise an experience, it is what it is. Or as Marlow alludes to, we are stuck with the genetic roll of the dice, or the natural disaster roll of the dice.
I never really think of things from the perspective of a God, and thus to trivialise prayer, or other peoples experiences with prayer, is not really on my mind either.
As a biologist I am in awe of all life, even bacteria; it makes every second we have precious.
As to morals, I'd like to think I contribute some good, and certainly borrow from all religions. Turn the other check, love they neighbor, do unto others as you wish done unto you. These are powerful lessons that are the foundation of a civil society. But I am also at liberty to ignore other lessons.
Amen Daisy! or rather beautifully said. I am not a biologist but I have given birth twice. I too am in awe of life without crediting it to aysupreme being who will give me two tickets to Paris if I just ask often and sincerely enough.
Many moons (many moons ago) ago I lived in some apartments with a couple buddies. Across the street were some big medal trash cans, our driveway was rocks. Sometimes while drinking beer and goofing off we'd throw rocks across the street trying to make it inside that one can that never had a lid. While we hit the can (all the cans ) numerous times we never made it inside.
Anyway...
Some time later my grandmother (86) was in the hospital and it wasn't looking good, I loved her very much. So I get this call from my dad..."you better come down here..." ..as I headed out the door to my car..."please God....."....just before getting in the car...I'm thinking.."did He hear me?"...I need a sign, yep, I picked up a rock and......(by street light)....nailed it, right inside that can. She lived to be 94.
I'm not anti-faith and I am envious of people who have it. But everyone who believes in something, doesn't believe in something else. In other word, to you believing Christians who use prayer, a practicing Hindu, who enjoys 100's of Gods, he would call you a non-believer, i.e. Atheist.
I'm open to everything and believe what makes sense to me.
Daisy wrote:The truth is I rarely try to rationalise an experience, it is what it is.
I'll second this and take it a step further. Even the word "atheist" has no meaning to me, as I reject all beliefs not supported by evidence. Since I don't believe there is an Abominable Snow Man, should I declare myself an "ayeti". Silly, ain't it?
SQUACKEE wrote:I'm not anti-faith and I am envious of people who have it. But everyone who believes in something, doesn't believe in something else. In other word, to you believing Christians who use prayer, a practicing Hindu, who enjoys 100's of Gods, he would call you a non-believer, i.e. Atheist.
I'm open to everything and believe what makes sense to me.
I worship Gerry Lindgren and Jimi Hendrix.
First off nobody cares what others think or call you. You do what's right for you. If they don't get it...oh well.
Personally I see no reason in the world to limit things, to..."there is no God because you can't prove it"...is beyond silly. To live a life with no hope in anything, no faith in anything is a good thing? When it gets bad and I'm surrounded I want to know I'm not alone. To play..."oh no you can't fool me"....why play that? You gain what by..."hey if you can't see Him"....? Like I said however to each his own.
Avante wrote:To live a life with no hope in anything, no faith in anything is a good thing?
There is absolutely zero support for a claim that any religious/irreligious group as a whole would have more or less fulfilling lives. It is one of many baseless statements of religionists. Each group has different convictions and aspirations. Each group has happy and suicidal individuals, successful ones and failures, decent people and murderers.
I'd agree with that. As to hope. I guess I don't need a God to have it. I don't feel I'm missing out.
My Sunday School teacher (I was 12) said that if you believe in God, He does exist.If you don't, he doesn't. That made sense at the time and has made even more sense to me in the 48 intervening years. It set me free to believe what I felt was right. The God I worship is absolutely unrecognizable to anyone else on the planet and is certainly not coincident with the God of any organized religion that I have ever heard of, but 'He' makes perfect sense to me. I pray to him, he answers, and my worship of him helps guide me to be the best person I can (not that I am as 'good' as I wish I were, or even as good as many other people I know of theist or atheistic beliefs).
Last edited by Marlow on Thu Dec 01, 2011 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
>> He cannot fly. He cannot see through walls. He cannot talk to the animals, not even cats. He's never picked up an automobile and tossed it across the road. He's failed to publish poetry in Russian. He can't explain Ryan Reynolds.
These are just a few of the many things Tim Tebow can't do.. . . .<<
tandfman wrote:These are just a few of the many things Tim Tebow can't do.. . . .<<
Time to quote Ricky Nelson in Garden Party . . .
"ya can't please everyone So ya got to please yourself"
All his nay-sayers are doing is fueling his fire. There IS a place in pro football for him, and right now it's QB. I've always thought he'd be an All-Pro tight end. He can run routes and catch. He can block. He can certainly run with the ball.
Daisy wrote:The truth is I rarely try to rationalise an experience, it is what it is.
I'll second this and take it a step further. Even the word "atheist" has no meaning to me, as I reject all beliefs not supported by evidence. Since I don't believe there is an Abominable Snow Man, should I declare myself an "ayeti". Silly, ain't it?
Gosh, this must be a Wisconsin track and field thing, as I will 'third' this.
Pego wrote: I reject all beliefs not supported by evidence.
I'm gonna hafta call BS on that. You have 'faith' in many things unsupported by evidence. 95% of what you think you know is merely taking the word of others who have 'taught' it to you. You have zero first-hand knowledge of the structure of atoms, but you have faith in its existence, because a group of others (called physicists) tell you it's so. In the 1300s you would have believed that the earth is the center of the universe because almost all learned men said so and there certainly is LOTS of empirical evidence that we are!! You have some modicum of faith in the 'good' of much of your fellow man, despite all the first-hand evidence YOU have to the contrary. We all believe what we want to believe. Same for religious people. They say they have ALL the evidential support they need, their very existence.
Marlow wrote:You have zero first-hand knowledge of the structure of atoms, but you have faith in its existence, because a group of others (called physicists) tell you it's so.
You don't need faith to read papers full of data by scientists with first hand knowledge.
Pego wrote: I reject all beliefs not supported by evidence.
I'm gonna hafta call BS on that. You have 'faith' in many things unsupported by evidence. 95% of what you think you know is merely taking the word of others who have 'taught' it to you. You have zero first-hand knowledge of the structure of atoms, but you have faith in its existence, because a group of others (called physicists) tell you it's so. In the 1300s you would have believed that the earth is the center of the universe because almost all learned men said so and there certainly is LOTS of empirical evidence that we are!! You have some modicum of faith in the 'good' of much of your fellow man, despite all the first-hand evidence YOU have to the contrary. We all believe what we want to believe. Same for religious people. They say they have ALL the evidential support they need, their very existence.
Marlow. I think you should start a daytime talk show. You'd be perfect.
Pego wrote: I reject all beliefs not supported by evidence.
I'm gonna hafta call BS on that. You have 'faith' in many things unsupported by evidence. 95% of what you think you know is merely taking the word of others who have 'taught' it to you. You have zero first-hand knowledge of the structure of atoms, but you have faith in its existence, because a group of others (called physicists) tell you it's so. In the 1300s you would have believed that the earth is the center of the universe because almost all learned men said so and there certainly is LOTS of empirical evidence that we are!! You have some modicum of faith in the 'good' of much of your fellow man, despite all the first-hand evidence YOU have to the contrary. We all believe what we want to believe. Same for religious people. They say they have ALL the evidential support they need, their very existence.
Accumulated experience through human existence is not "faith". There are words for it. It is called "science", it is called "education", you may even call it "objective knowledge." It is taught in schools, you may have heard of them. I have not been in Australia, but I've seen evidence it is there, not just a word of Joe Shmoe, as you suggest I take at a face value. The same thing goes for the atoms. I've seen nuclear chain reactions, thank you very much. I have used equipment built on the physics of quantum mechanics.
Faith by definition has no supportive evidence and many theologians actually warn the faithful not to fall into the trap of requiring it. From Augustine, through Luther, Kierkegaard...
Now, tell me you are just trolling me and all is well .
"To live a life with no hope in anything, no faith in anything is a good thing? When it gets bad and I'm surrounded I want to know I'm not alone."
I confess to running with the athiest crowd, and I have have hope that for a geologic while anyway the planet I live on will continue to support life. I have hope that for a human lifespan while I will wake up every day and enjoy some things I see or do. Was it Twain who said faith was believing in something even though you knew it was not ture?
And we are not alone- our planet is too crowded, and only gets worse.
Pego wrote:Accumulated experience through human existence is not "faith". There are words for it. It is called "science", it is called "education", you may even call it "objective knowledge." It is taught in schools, you may have heard of them.
Alas, humans are fallible; scientists are humans; therefore scientists are fallible. Just as many of the things of "accumulated experience through human existence", "science", "education", and "objective knowledge" have been proven FALSE by ensuing generations (see my 1300s example, when people 'knew for a FACT' that the sun rotated around the Earth, which was the center of the universe). We are FAR from the end-times of knowledge. There are many things in today's SCIENCE that will be proven false in the future. There are many things in our lives that we take 'on faith'; that IS a fact.
Pego wrote:Accumulated experience through human existence is not "faith". There are words for it. It is called "science", it is called "education", you may even call it "objective knowledge." It is taught in schools, you may have heard of them.
Alas, humans are fallible; scientists are humans; therefore scientists are fallible. Just as many of the things of "accumulated experience through human existence", "science", "education", and "objective knowledge" have been proven FALSE by ensuing generations (see my 1300s example, when people 'knew for a FACT' that the sun rotated around the Earth, which was the center of the universe). We are FAR from the end-times of knowledge. There are many things in today's SCIENCE that will be proven false in the future. There are many things in our lives that we take 'on faith'; that IS a fact.
Boy, you sure have an odd vision of science, perfect for the daytime crowd. A vision where nothing that has gone on before matters. Today earth centered, tomorrow, sun centered, next week, who knows?
What is so remarkable that a thousand years ago, it was thought that the sun went around the earth? (Though I suspect even then some might have had some doubts, since the retrograde of the planets was known 2000 years ago.) And now we know it is not. Sure science makes mistakes, but it is not a random process where theories hop back and forth.
) numerous times we never made it inside.
Alas, humans are fallible; scientists are humans; therefore scientists are fallible. Just as many of the things of "accumulated experience through human existence", "science", "education", and "objective knowledge" have been proven FALSE by ensuing generations (see my 1300s example, when people 'knew for a FACT' that the sun rotated around the Earth, which was the center of the universe). We are FAR from the end-times of knowledge. There are many things in today's SCIENCE that will be proven false in the future. There are many things in our lives that we take 'on faith'; that IS a fact.