The Invention of "Race" As a Physiological Construct

[kuha]

I thouht the central issue here was the misleading and useless "r" word. EVERYONE knows and agrees that skill sets reflect in large measure (but never exclusively) one's genetic endowment and, thereby, one's ancestral roots/genetic population. That's old news.

[Avante]

We see black sprinters dominating midget track. Sorry but you're wrong about those with roots to western Africa not being the fastest sprinters. They are.

High school kids aren't being excluded from anything, why do black sprinters dominate there? No it's not about hours spent training, it's about unique physical characteristics found in those with western African roots.

While I do agree with your basic premise, I think culture still plays a role. If kids of European descent were raised in the same environment as kids from west African descent, I don't think the numbers would be as lopsided as they are and you would see more Lemaitres and Wariners on the circuit though Blacks would still dominate. This explains why Europeans are such much more successful in the NBA than White Americans these days.

As you know "most" of those great speedy, agile, quick, elusive backs/kick returners were/ are black. They don't get that sort of ability because of culture.We aren't going to be seeing white athletes running like Devin Hester, Dante Hall, Gale Sayers, Barry Sanders, Deion Sanders etc. That's not about culture,want, need or anything other than race. And those differences that give us race.

Can white sprinters run a sub 9.80? I have my doubts.

As you know there was a time when white sprinters were abundant. They won the 52, 56 and 60 Olympic 100m. It's when guys like Hayes, Hines, Greene and Smith showed up and starting running those kinds of times that we saw the demise of the white sprinter. They simply couldn't match up. Even Borzov couldn't run what Hayes, Hines and Greene were running.

When something/anything is as dramatic/absolute as why we never ever see white American female 100m sprinters. It goes far deeper than culture. Only a blind man would fail to see how black female athletes are more muscular and physically blessed for sprinting.

[Marlow]

I thouht the central issue here was the misleading and useless "r" word.

Oh, I thought we all agreed that 'race', like 'terrorism' on another thread, is indeed a worthless term, since no two people see as meaning the same thing. Race, as it's used in 2011 America, has degenerated into a back-construct of the word, 'racism'. Since the 'race' card is pulled out at any opportunity (by any and all 'races'), it simply refers to any ethnic sub-set in the general population, be it neo-Gypsy or post-modern Goth.

[jazzcyclist]

When something/anything is as dramatic/absolute as why we never ever see white American female 100m sprinters. It goes far deeper than culture. Only a blind man would fail to see how black female athletes are more muscular and physically blessed for sprinting.

Did you even bother to read my post? Evidently not, otherwise you would not have gotten the idea that I was saying that culture was the only factor. I said culture plays A factor. I didn't say culture plays THE ONLY factor. However, if you believe that culture plays no factor at all, you're wrong.

[Avante]

When something/anything is as dramatic/absolute as why we never ever see white American female 100m sprinters. It goes far deeper than culture. Only a blind man would fail to see how black female athletes are more muscular and physically blessed for sprinting.

Did you even bother to read my post? Evidently not, otherwise you would not have gotten the idea that I was saying that culture was the only factor. I said culture plays A factor. I didn't say culture plays THE ONLY factor. However, if you believe that culture plays no factor at all, you're wrong.

I read everything you said, my point was that culture has nothing at all to do with this. It's a total/compltete non factor. Blacks dominate certain aspects of athletics because of a difference in physical attributes. That doesn't change because of cultural anythings.

What if Kenyans starting digging the shot put? What if Samoans got into the steeplechase? It doesn't matter they do not possess the right physique for those events.

No Jazz this isn't about culture/want/need, we are talking physical differences as the only factor that matters.

[jeremyp]

When it comes to athletics events that require explosive movements and leaping ability it's those from western Africa that possess the physique best suited for that sort of physical activity.

And the reason great high jumpers are mostly European is?

Why are you ignoring sprinting, hurdling, long jump? Are you telling me that you've never noticed what I was saying?

Do you have a thought disorder?

[Avante]

When it comes to athletics events that require explosive movements and leaping ability it's those from western Africa that possess the physique best suited for that sort of physical activity.

And the reason great high jumpers are mostly European is?

Why are you ignoring sprinting, hurdling, long jump? Are you telling me that you've never noticed what I was saying?

Do you have a thought disorder?

I actually suffer from trustwhatyouseeitis.

[jazzcyclist]

I read everything you said, my point was that culture has nothing at all to do with this. It's a total/compltete non factor. . . . . .

No Jazz this isn't about culture/want/need, we are talking physical differences as the only factor that matters.

There's no hope for you Avante.

[Avante]

I read everything you said, my point was that culture has nothing at all to do with this. It's a total/compltete non factor. . . . . .

No Jazz this isn't about culture/want/need, we are talking physical differences as the only factor that matters.

There's no hope for you Avante.

So I must agree with you on this? I 'm thinking the exact same thing Jazz, why aren't you agreeing with me?

When everything we see/seen tells us that the biggest difference in Asains/blacks/whites is physique. We have different races because............we are different! You disagree? So if we took blacks kids and they grew up in China they can't be great sprinters? Doesn't the USA have all kinds of people living here? So why is it the blacks who star in certain athletics events? You have any idea how many Mexican Americans live in California? Where are their sprinters?

Culture is going to change all that, no Jazz it isn't.

Put blacks in Canada.....Donovan Bailey, put them in Great Britian....Linford Christie, Africa....Frankie Fredericks. Why is it Afro Americans who rule sprinting, why not Asia Americans or Mexican Americans or.......

[jazzcyclist]

I read everything you said, my point was that culture has nothing at all to do with this. It's a total/compltete non factor. . . . . .

No Jazz this isn't about culture/want/need, we are talking physical differences as the only factor that matters.

There's no hope for you Avante.

When everything we see/seen tells us that the biggest difference in Asains/blacks/whites is physique.

"Biggest difference" isn't the same thing as "only difference".

[Avante]

I read everything you said, my point was that culture has nothing at all to do with this. It's a total/compltete non factor. . . . . .

No Jazz this isn't about culture/want/need, we are talking physical differences as the only factor that matters.

There's no hope for you Avante.

When everything we see/seen tells us that the biggest difference in Asains/blacks/whites is physique.

"Biggest difference" isn't the same thing as "only difference".

Jazz we aren't talking about something marginal/close here. We are talking about something dramatic. We are talking about 99.9 dominance. Do you really believe culture is going to make any kind of big difference? White female sprinters from the USA? Asains running 9.75?

Come on Jazz...sheesh!!!!! Where ever blacks live they dominant sprinting. Where ever Asains live, they don't. Why do you think Kenyans can run as they do? Culture? No Jazz, it's because they are tiny. They have a physique tailor made for long distance running. What full grown American man is 5-4 115 pounds?

Do you think culture would give us great breakaway backs? You can't see that is simply a black thing because of rhythm? Come on man. I know I know it ain't cool to talk like that but it's the truth. I see it, you don't?

You put blacks in any culture/country they are going to rule sprinting. Just the opposite with everyone else.

[Bijan]

When something/anything is as dramatic/absolute as why we never ever see white American female 100m sprinters.

What "color" are Marlies Gohr and Barbel Eckert? American girls didn't have the national sports machine those athletes had.

Secondly, these "Black sprinters descended from West Africans" are not similarly built- if physique, not sociocultural models, is the reason they "dominate" sprints. Mel Pender, Jesse Owens, Steve Williams, Carl Lewis, Hasley Crawford and Usain Bolt are not built alike, and physical types, ectomorph, endomorph, et al, overlap "racial" lines.

NFL RB's who reached great success had varying physiques- Marion Motley, Marcus Allen, Gale Sayers, Earl Campbell, Barry Sanders, Eric Dickerson, Chuck Muncie, Stephen Jackson, Franco Harris.

[7-sided]

When somebody can seriously explain to me why Kenyans and Ethiopians dominate in the distance track races, and Afro American/Carribean dominate in the sprints then I'll accept that race is just psychological.

Ditto. I don't see it as demeaning or derogatory to make this observation.

People have been explaining, it seems as if you are hell-bent on NOT listening. Kenyans and Ethiopians are as distant genetically as two people of the same "color" can possibly be, but if you were listening then you would know that the most distance will occur WITHIN a race than BETWEEN the races; also, Afro American/Caribbeans dominance seems to fall down on the women's side. Why is that?

[Marlow]

Kenyans and Ethiopians are as distant genetically as two people of the same "color" can possibly be

Hyperbole Alert. Yes, there are some cosmetic differences, but being neighboring African countries, they have a lot more in common than say, Norwegians and Turks.

[7-sided]

Some are missing my point. If . . .

I'm pretty sure everyone did get that point (too). The sticking point is the reality that some human phenotypes are better suited to a physical activity than others. Rift Valley people are GENERALLY better 'made' for distance running than Samoans. Nigerians are better suited for sprinting than Rift Valleyers. Etc.

Then how do you explain South Africa? It has whites and blacks who have run fast for distances and sprints. And when you say sprinting do you include the 400m because there have been MORE elite level Kenyan 400m runners than Nigerians in the last 20 or so years.

[7-sided]

Kenyans and Ethiopians are as distant genetically as two people of the same "color" can possibly be

Hyperbole Alert. Yes, there are some cosmetic differences, but being neighboring African countries, they have a lot more in common than say, Norwegians and Turks.

Hyperbole alert? Marlow,you're wrong; this has NOTHING to do with "cosmetic" differences. KEN and ETH are "different" in a host of ways. In fact, ETH can be classified as Caucosoids in a very loose definition.

[Marlow]

ETH can be classified as Caucosoids in a very loose definition.

I bet you DO know more than I on this subject, but that sentence right there throws you in the midst of that 'Race' thread, meaning: you're using meaningless terms.

[Avante]

When something/anything is as dramatic/absolute as why we never ever see white American female 100m sprinters.

What "color" are Marlies Gohr and Barbel Eckert? American girls didn't have the national sports machine those athletes had.

Secondly, these "Black sprinters descended from West Africans" are not similarly built- if physique, not sociocultural models, is the reason they "dominate" sprints. Mel Pender, Jesse Owens, Steve Williams, Carl Lewis, Hasley Crawford and Usain Bolt are not built alike, and physical types, ectomorph, endomorph, et al, overlap "racial" lines.

NFL RB's who reached great success had varying physiques- Marion Motley, Marcus Allen, Gale Sayers, Earl Campbell, Barry Sanders, Eric Dickerson, Chuck Muncie, Stephen Jackson, Franco Harris.

Remember Marlies Gohr/Marita Koch/Barbel Eckert come late August.

Give me the names of great white sprinters no taller than 5-8? Then there's Mel Pender, Ira Murchison, Andre Cason, Buddy Young, Houston McTear,Trindon Holliday, Ivory Crockett. Now give me the names of white world class sprinters 6-2 or taller, like...Steve Williams, Steve Riddick, Tommie Smith, Carl Lewis, Usian Bolt, Mark Witherspoon,Asafa Powell, Francis Obikwelu.

All you are talking about is power backs like....Marion Mottley, Jerome Bettis, Earl Campbell, Steven Jackson, Tank Younger, Cookie Gilchrist, Matt Snell etc and speed backs like....O.J.Simpson, Tony Dorsett, Gale Sayers, Eric Dickerson etc. Then there's Marcus Allen, Barry Sanders, Emmitt Smith and Walter Payton who were a mix of talents. What did everyone mentioned above have in common.......yep....Afro Americans. Now give me the names of those speedy white running backs? Power backs....Larry Czonka, Jim Taylor and John Riggins.

Now...

Notice the size with speed we only see coming from those with roots to western Africa? Bo Jackson...9.5 in high school, Herschel Walker 10.23, Marcus Dupree 9.5 in high school, Curtis Dickey 10.10...all around 220 or more. Then there's the tall with speed like Randy Moss, Terrell Owens, Calvin Johnson. Ever see a white guy run like Devin Hester, Billy "White Shoes" Johnson, Dante Hall, Nolan "Super Gnat" Smith, Deion Sanders, Rick Upchurch?

Why are there...0...white cornerbacks in the NFL?

What you saw above is all about one group of people having a unique physique tailor made for speed. quickness, power and elusiveness. That's all it is.

Sure there are exceptions. Lance Alworth could run, as could Hugh "The King" McElhenny. But it's rare. While there are tons of speedy Afro American backs and receivers.

We've seen no less than seven sub10.10 100m Afro Americans play in the NFL. What white sprinter entered the NFL with sub10.30 speed.....none!

[Daisy]

Kenyans and Ethiopians are as distant genetically as two people of the same "color" can possibly be

Hyperbole Alert. Yes, there are some cosmetic differences, but being neighboring African countries, they have a lot more in common than say, Norwegians and Turks.

Actually, that is probably not the case. The genetic diversity within Africa is huge, outside Africa, not so much.

[jazzcyclist]

Here are your words Avante:

culture has nothing at all to do with this. It's a total/compltete non factor. . . . . .

this isn't about culture/want/need, we are talking physical differences as the only factor that matters

This is what totally undermines your credibility. Nothing else that you post even warrants consideration after posting this.

[Marlow]

Kenyans and Ethiopians are as distant genetically as two people of the same "color" can possibly be

Hyperbole Alert. Yes, there are some cosmetic differences, but being neighboring African countries, they have a lot more in common than say, Norwegians and Turks.

Actually, that is probably not the case. The genetic diversity within Africa is huge, outside Africa, not so much.

Then I apologize to 7; I stand corrected.

[Avante]

Here are your words Avante:

culture has nothing at all to do with this. It's a total/compltete non factor. . . . . .

this isn't about culture/want/need, we are talking physical differences as the only factor that matters

This is what totally undermines your credibility. Nothing else that you post even warrants consideration after posting this.

You always take on some sort of.."I'm the judge"...personna Jazz, what's that about? Believe whatever you like, I don't see culture having anything at all to do with this. Put blacks in China, Iran, Iraq, where ever and we'll see what we are seeing now, they will still dominate sprinting. Put Asains/whites in Texas, Jamaica, Florida, Trinidad and they still won't. So much for culture.

You really do have a control thang..huh?

[gh]

...., Afro American/Caribbeans dominance seems to fall down on the women's side. Why is that?

Because women are more easily "enhanced" than men.

[kuha]

Here are your words Avante:

culture has nothing at all to do with this. It's a total/compltete non factor. . . . . .

this isn't about culture/want/need, we are talking physical differences as the only factor that matters

This is what totally undermines your credibility. Nothing else that you post even warrants consideration after posting this.

My compadre Jazz is 100% correct. Avante has one note to play and it long ago ceased to be interesting in any way.

[kuha]

Kenyans and Ethiopians are as distant genetically as two people of the same "color" can possibly be

Hyperbole Alert. Yes, there are some cosmetic differences, but being neighboring African countries, they have a lot more in common than say, Norwegians and Turks.

Actually, that is probably not the case. The genetic diversity within Africa is huge, outside Africa, not so much.

Yes. Ethiopia and Kenya are very different genetically.

[Avante]

Here are your words Avante:

culture has nothing at all to do with this. It's a total/compltete non factor. . . . . .

this isn't about culture/want/need, we are talking physical differences as the only factor that matters

This is what totally undermines your credibility. Nothing else that you post even warrants consideration after posting this.

My compadre Jazz is 100% correct. Avante has one note to play and it long ago ceased to be interesting in any way.

I think it's more a case of don't disagree with a compadre of yours. No he's not correct, if he were then race would be the non factor. Culture would be the deciding factor. You can't have both. Blacks dominate sprinting/speed positions in football/hurdling because of physical characteristics not culture.

[jeremyp]

Kenyans and Ethiopians are as distant genetically as two people of the same "color" can possibly be

Hyperbole Alert. Yes, there are some cosmetic differences, but being neighboring African countries, they have a lot more in common than say, Norwegians and Turks.

Actually, that is probably not the case. The genetic diversity within Africa is huge, outside Africa, not so much.

Yes. Ethiopia and Kenya are very different genetically.

Except possibly in lung capacities.

[jazzcyclist]

I think it's more a case of don't disagree with a compadre of yours. No he's correct, if he were then race would be the non factor. Culture would be the deciding factor. You can't have both.

I never said race is a non-factor. It is you who said culture/environment is a non-factor. I believe that race/genetics is the primary factor and culture/environment is the secondary factor. The number of folks of west African descent in the U.S., Jamaica, Trinidad and the Bahamas is approximately 45 million. That's less than one third the population of Nigeria alone. Why hasn't Nigeria won three times as many medals as Black Americans and Black Caribbeans? Why are European basketball players having so much more NBA success than White Americans? Why does the Dominican Republic produce so many more Major League baseball players than Venezuela despite only having one third of Venezuela's population?

[jazzcyclist]

Yes. Ethiopia and Kenya are very different genetically.

Except possibly in lung capacities.

That probably has more to do with generation after generation after generation being born and raised in the Great Rift Valley, which straddles Kenya and Ethiopia.