Chinese female world records


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Re: Chinese female world records

Postby bman » Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:21 pm

What ever happened to good old fashioned lying about times? Who was administering this meet? Why couldn't they have just knocked some time off in the back room without anyone knowing?

I personally would like to believe that they were drug assisted but otherwise legit. I hold the view that there was in fact some secrets Coach Ma had in his camp (besides drugs). As a coach I have come to think we are missing huge amounts of information about what goes into athletes preforming well.
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Re: Chinese female world records

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:49 pm

bman wrote:What ever happened to good old fashioned lying about times? Who was administering this meet? Why couldn't they have just knocked some time off in the back room without anyone knowing?

I personally would like to believe that they were drug assisted but otherwise legit.


Yes, lying could be an answer, but why would the men be left out?

As for drugs, why would they be so effective for the Chinese, but not for anyone else? It is not like no one else has tried.
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Re: Chinese female world records

Postby bman » Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:54 pm

Conor Dary wrote:Yes, lying could be an answer, but why would the men be left out?


Perhaps because it was known the men could not compete at the World championships in Stuttgart.

As for drugs, why would they be so effective for the Chinese, but not for anyone else? It is not like no one else has tried.


There's only one Ma Junren.
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Re: Chinese female world records

Postby Conor Dary » Mon Jul 04, 2011 7:56 pm

bman wrote:
There's only one Ma Junren.


Thank god for that.
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Re: Chinese female world records

Postby bman » Mon Jul 04, 2011 8:15 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
bman wrote:
There's only one Ma Junren.


Thank god for that.


I think a lot of his athletes left after 93 which could be another factor here to consider.
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Re: Chinese female world records

Postby TN1965 » Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:38 pm

bman wrote:What ever happened to good old fashioned lying about times?


My initial reaction to the negative split in 10000m was "they must have miscounted the laps and felt too embarassed to admit it. So they 'made up' those spilts to make it look like they actually ran 25 laps." And that record looked more like a time for 9600m.
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Re: Chinese female world records

Postby AS » Mon Jul 04, 2011 9:42 pm

I seem to recall there being video footage of the meet... in which case the miscounted lap and made-up-time conspiracies would be easily disproved...
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Re: Chinese female world records

Postby Powell » Tue Jul 05, 2011 5:27 am

gh wrote:(and I don't believe--at least in a track sense--there has ever been a nation that has had stunning men's success and nothing on the women's side)


Sweden was one - they were a major force in certain periods (especially in the first few years after WW2), but had no success on the women's side pretty much right until the 1980s.

Of course things changed for them in the last 20 years, and they've now had a good few major female stars.
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Re: Chinese female world records

Postby kuha » Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:09 am

AS wrote:I seem to recall there being video footage of the meet... in which case the miscounted lap and made-up-time conspiracies would be easily disproved...


Let's see it. It SHOULD exist, but does it?
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Re: Chinese female world records

Postby gh » Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:49 am

Powell wrote:
gh wrote:(and I don't believe--at least in a track sense--there has ever been a nation that has had stunning men's success and nothing on the women's side)


Sweden was one - they were a major force in certain periods (especially in the first few years after WW2), but had no success on the women's side pretty much right until the 1980s.

Of course things changed for them in the last 20 years, and they've now had a good few major female stars.


I'm speaking of the era since male hormones became available to women.
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Re: Chinese female world records

Postby catson52 » Tue Jul 05, 2011 6:54 am

Not central to the discussion perhaps, but the El G-Ngeny effect should not be totally discounted. What was Ngeny's best time in a non-El G 1500/mile race? Merv Lincoln was pulled to 3:55.9 behind Elliott at Dublin, what was his best effort without Herb in the race? Look at Graham Crouch's time in Christchurch in 1974, pulled along by Bayi. All these athletes, "latched on" to the leader, and produced superb results. This is not to say they were without talent.
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Re: Chinese female world records

Postby gh » Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:02 am

kuha wrote:
AS wrote:I seem to recall there being video footage of the meet... in which case the miscounted lap and made-up-time conspiracies would be easily disproved...


Let's see it. It SHOULD exist, but does it?


I'm pretty sure I recall a Japanese TV network running some of the races in their entirety.
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Re: Chinese female world records

Postby kuha » Tue Jul 05, 2011 7:14 am

All I'm saying is: let's see this footage and at least attempt to analyze it. I've never seen it and find it interesting that no seems able to actually produce it.
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Re: Chinese female world records

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:17 am

kuha wrote:All I'm saying is: let's see this footage and at least attempt to analyze it. I've never seen it and find it interesting that no seems able to actually produce it.


Yes, I too would like to see this footage. To count laps and also to see if the folks who ran outside China are in the race.
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Re: Chinese female world records

Postby jazzcyclist » Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:26 am

catson52 wrote:Not central to the discussion perhaps, but the El G-Ngeny effect should not be totally discounted. What was Ngeny's best time in a non-El G 1500/mile race? Merv Lincoln was pulled to 3:55.9 behind Elliott at Dublin, what was his best effort without Herb in the race? Look at Graham Crouch's time in Christchurch in 1974, pulled along by Bayi. All these athletes, "latched on" to the leader, and produced superb results. This is not to say they were without talent.

A 16 m.p.h. draft can defintely make a difference in races like this.
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Re: Chinese female world records

Postby kuha » Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:37 am

catson52 wrote:Not central to the discussion perhaps, but the El G-Ngeny effect should not be totally discounted. What was Ngeny's best time in a non-El G 1500/mile race? Merv Lincoln was pulled to 3:55.9 behind Elliott at Dublin, what was his best effort without Herb in the race? Look at Graham Crouch's time in Christchurch in 1974, pulled along by Bayi. All these athletes, "latched on" to the leader, and produced superb results. This is not to say they were without talent.


Yes, BUT, we're talking about two pretty clearly separate things in terms of 1993:
a) individuals who achieved massive lifetime bests; and
b) a number of other athletes who achieved massive lifetime bests on consecutive days in multiple events.

What could Graham Crouch have done the day after the Christchurch race? And the day after that? And the day after that? THAT is the genuinely relevant question.
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Re: Chinese female world records

Postby Conor Dary » Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:49 am

kuha wrote:
catson52 wrote:Not central to the discussion perhaps, but the El G-Ngeny effect should not be totally discounted. What was Ngeny's best time in a non-El G 1500/mile race? Merv Lincoln was pulled to 3:55.9 behind Elliott at Dublin, what was his best effort without Herb in the race? Look at Graham Crouch's time in Christchurch in 1974, pulled along by Bayi. All these athletes, "latched on" to the leader, and produced superb results. This is not to say they were without talent.


Yes, BUT, we're talking about two pretty clearly separate things in terms of 1993:
a) individuals who achieved massive lifetime bests; and
b) a number of other athletes who achieved massive lifetime bests on consecutive days in multiple events.

What could Graham Crouch have done the day after the Christchurch race? And the day after that? And the day after that? THAT is the genuinely relevant question.


Right. The equivalent would have been a 1500 in about 3:20 and the rest of the field under 3:30 and that back in 1974. Ridiculous.
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Re: Chinese female world records

Postby gh » Tue Jul 05, 2011 8:51 am

Conor Dary wrote:
kuha wrote:All I'm saying is: let's see this footage and at least attempt to analyze it. I've never seen it and find it interesting that no seems able to actually produce it.


Yes, I too would like to see this footage. To count laps and also to see if the folks who ran outside China are in the race.


I'm 99% certain that footage was well analyzed at the time, since that was the first reaction.
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Re: Chinese female world records

Postby kuha » Tue Jul 05, 2011 10:22 am

I invite anyone who has done so to contribute here, to point out any published commentary on the matter, or to make that original footage more readily available. Inquiring Minds Want to Know.
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Re: Chinese female world records

Postby Friar » Wed Jul 04, 2012 7:11 pm

Certainly an interesting time. And maybe the best edition (De.'93) of T&FN ever. It was really unclear what China was capable of and to what lengths they were willing to go?
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