American Imperialism


Normally open July 4th only---the one day a year when partisan politics, religion, etc. are acceptable topics on this Board (within reason). The forum is now closed.

Re: American Imperialism

Postby Gebrucilassie » Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:15 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Gebrucilassie wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote: "Personally, I think we had it coming on 9/11".



Please tell me I have misplaced my reading glasses!!! You think Thousands of innocent people just going about their business somehow goaded Al Queda to use planes as bombs??? That the "WE" you refer to are citizens like myself. Before 911 I had never heard of Al-Queda.

If you are somehow saying the powers in government brought this on us I still can't agree with you. These are people who have apparently latched on to their own interpretation of Islam and have decided that we are the enemy. NOTHING we do weather we "leave them alone" or fight them is going to change that.

You read right, we had it coming and I include myself, as long as I continue to live here in the U.S. with all the benefits of citizenship. People have a responsibility to control their governments and we haven't controlled ours very well in recent years. I also believe the folks in Dresden and Hiroshima had it coming in 1945, Iraqis had it coming in 1991, Afghans had it coming after 9/11, etc.


I guess by your twisted logic, the Jews had it coming from Hitler. Control our Government? What a simplistic view you must hold of American government! The government has been doing things I don't agree with since I was young. I vote every election yet I can control them as much as I can control the passing years.
Gebrucilassie
 
Posts: 220
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:57 pm

Re: American Imperialism

Postby Flumpy » Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:18 am

jazzcyclist wrote:Perhaps my phrasing was a bit hyperbolic, but I do remember reading an article from a British source which cited a poll in which 85% of the folks in the British made a connection between the London bombings and their involvement in Iraq.


That;s entirely different and almost certainly correct.
Flumpy
 
Posts: 3899
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: American Imperialism

Postby 72 » Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:35 am

Somebody out there do not compare the time and mood of Korea with the criminality of Iraq for starters, or Vietnam and a dozen other examples of American bullying and imperialism. You are rightly hated throughout the world, as Great Britain was in the 19th century for all the wicked things we did ( and a few good policies as well)
How Americans cannot understand that the destruction of the middle class and the infrastructure in Iraq was NOT justified, just because your great President Bush! wanted to get rid of a nasty dictator who like all Arabs loved boasting about what they've got.... He was a threat to USA and Britain , dont make me laugh.!!!!

When one thinks of all the crummy dictators around the world( many without oil of course) with whom the West and especially corporate America and us are prepared to do business, I dont know whether to laugh or cry.

Blair is known in Britain among most all classes as a useless impotent puppet who could do with a spell ''inside', a man who did not do what Harold Wilson did and said to President LBJ, ''No sir we aint going to get involved in Vietnam''

My attitude is that a country can choose what system of government it chooses and if it does not threaten another country then that country has no right to interfere. All that christian stuff from Blair made my skin crawl.!!

Who bankrolled Saddam Hussein in the Iran Iraq war.? Who was generous to Osamah bin Laden; who bankrolled the Taliban monsters cos they thought it was all about Russia?? Who are going to waste time , money, and blood in Afhanistan which exists for fighting, corruption and heroin and caused we Brits so much grief in the 19th century./ Yes, you have it, Americans.

I could write a book on the foolishness, errors and obsessions of the military industrial complex in the States but I will satify myself with Churchills comment on American foreign policy ''the Americans get things right in the end after having tried every other wrong policy first''

Dont tell me about the Brits since we have never made up our minds where we belong, Europe or acros the Pond. ; I think the special relationship is a nonsense, largely.

Yes, I agree BP or British Petroleum, if you prefer, are a bunch of nasties who deserve being punished. But not quite like the Union Carbide people who only killed a a few thousand Indians . Their boss Andersen should have been shot but now enjoys a happy tretirement. Should not have started drilling there in the first place.


Happy 4th July gentlemen, look forward to a nice rant next year
72
 
Posts: 742
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:53 am

Re: American Imperialism

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:38 am

Gebrucilassie wrote:I guess by your twisted logic, the Jews had it coming from Hitler. Control our Government? What a simplistic view you must hold of American government!

This is so silly that I won't dignify it with a comment. However, if you would like to engage in a serious discussion regarding my views on genocide, I'll gladly respond to any civil discourse that you choose to engage in.
jazzcyclist
 
Posts: 10857
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: American Imperialism

Postby 72 » Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:38 am

[quote="72"]Somebody out there do not compare the time and mood of Korea with the criminality of Iraq for starters, or Vietnam and a dozen other examples of American bullying and imperialism. You are rightly hated throughout the world, as Great Britain was in the 19th century for all the wicked things we did ( and a few good policies as well)
How Americans cannot understand that the destruction of the middle class and the infrastructure in Iraq was NOT justified, just because your great President Bush! wanted to get rid of a nasty dictator who like all Arabs loved boasting about what they've got.... He was a threat to USA and Britain , dont make me laugh.!!!!

When one thinks of all the crummy dictators around the world( many without oil of course) with whom the West and especially corporate America and us are prepared to do business, I dont know whether to laugh or cry.

Blair is known in Britain among most all classes as a useless impotent puppet who could do with a spell ''inside', a man who did not do what Harold Wilson did and said to President LBJ, ''No sir we aint going to get involved in Vietnam''

My attitude is that a country can choose what system of government it chooses and if it does not threaten another country then that country has no right to interfere. All that Christian stuff from Blair made my skin crawl.!! Yes I know about Ireland, but many think that the mangave in to a bunch of IRA criminals , so beloved of some of our American friends.!!

Who bankrolled Saddam Hussein in the Iran Iraq war.? Who was generous to Osamah bin Laden; who bankrolled the Taliban monsters cos they thought it was all about Russia?? Who are going to waste time , money, and blood in Afghanistan which exists for fighting, corruption and heroin and caused we Brits so much grief in the 19th century./ Yes, you have it, Americans.

I could write a book on the foolishness, errors and obsessions of the military industrial complex in the States but I will satify myself with Churchills comment on American foreign policy ''the Americans get things right in the end after having tried every other wrong policy first''

Dont tell me about the Brits since we have never made up our minds where we belong, Europe or acros the Pond. ; I think the special relationship is a nonsense, largely.

Yes, I agree BP or British Petroleum, if you prefer, are a bunch of nasties who deserve being punished. But not quite like the Union Carbide people who only killed a a few thousand Indians . Their boss Andersen should have been shot but now enjoys a happy tretirement. Should not have started drilling there in the first place.


Happy 4th July gentlemen, look forward to a nice rant next year.
72
 
Posts: 742
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:53 am

Re: American Imperialism

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Jul 04, 2010 6:39 am

Flumpy wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Perhaps my phrasing was a bit hyperbolic, but I do remember reading an article from a British source which cited a poll in which 85% of the folks in the British made a connection between the London bombings and their involvement in Iraq.


That;s entirely different and almost certainly correct.

So its seems that you took exception to my description, but not my logic and analysis.
jazzcyclist
 
Posts: 10857
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: American Imperialism

Postby Gebrucilassie » Sun Jul 04, 2010 10:45 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Gebrucilassie wrote:I guess by your twisted logic, the Jews had it coming from Hitler. Control our Government? What a simplistic view you must hold of American government!

This is so silly that I won't dignify it with a comment. However, if you would like to engage in a serious discussion regarding my views on genocide, I'll gladly respond to any civil discourse that you choose to engage in.


No more than the silly rubbish you have been spouting. I agree that the American government has done many things that are despicable, but show me a government either that hasn't. But to state that innocent civilians "had it coming" is insulting and ignorant.
Gebrucilassie
 
Posts: 220
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:57 pm

Re: American Imperialism

Postby Flumpy » Sun Jul 04, 2010 12:56 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Flumpy wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Perhaps my phrasing was a bit hyperbolic, but I do remember reading an article from a British source which cited a poll in which 85% of the folks in the British made a connection between the London bombings and their involvement in Iraq.


That;s entirely different and almost certainly correct.

So its seems that you took exception to my description, but not my logic and analysis.


Which is exactly what I said........

"Whilst I agree with your general point this bit is nonsense."
Flumpy
 
Posts: 3899
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: American Imperialism

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Jul 04, 2010 7:05 pm

Gebrucilassie wrote:No more than the silly rubbish you have been spouting. I agree that the American government has done many things that are despicable, but show me a government either that hasn't. But to state that innocent civilians "had it coming" is insulting and ignorant.

You began your previous post with an unprovoked ad hominem attack on me, not serious debate. As for your concern for the innocent civilians of 9/11. it might have some resonance if you showed the same concern for the innocent civilians whose only sin was being Iraqi at a time when George W Bush was president. Of course folks like you don't count them? :roll:
jazzcyclist
 
Posts: 10857
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: American Imperialism

Postby jazzcyclist » Sun Jul 04, 2010 7:55 pm

Flumpy wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:So its seems that you took exception to my description, but not my logic and analysis.


Which is exactly what I said........

"Whilst I agree with your general point this bit is nonsense."

You're too caught up in semantics. Jeremiah Wright said exactly the same thing that Republican Presidential candidate Ron Paul said, but Paul said it in language that's more palatable to folks like you, while Wright said it in language that's more real to people like me. What's the difference between this:
Jeremiah Wright wrote:and now we are indignant, because the stuff we have done overseas is now brought back into our own front yards. America's chickens are coming home to roost

and this:
Ron Paul wrote:I believe very sincerely that the CIA is correct when they teach and talk about blowback. When we went into Iran in 1953 and installed the shah, yes, there was blowback. A reaction to that was the taking of our hostages and that persists. And if we ignore that, we ignore that at our own risk. If we think that we can do what we want around the world and not incite hatred, then we have a problem. They don't come here to attack us because we're rich and we're free. They come and they attack us because we're over there. I mean, what would we think if we were – if other foreign countries were doing that to us?

It seems that a lot of folks here will concede that the U.S. has done some unjust things overseas that might have given rise to legitimate grievances by folks in the Mideast. But what they seem to take exception to is the way that Arabs/Muslims choose to address their grievances. Ironically, this is the same logic that Hassan Nasrallah used after Hezbollah's 2006 war with Israel. After the war, he went on Lebanese TV and apologized for the cross-border raid that led to the death of ten Israeli soldiers, saying that he would have never done it if he had known the Israelis would react by bombing all of Lebanon, and he thought they would confine their retaliation to south Lebanon where Hezbollah was. Many folks called Israel's retaliation disproportionate, which it may have been, but in principle, I side with the Israelis in this particular instance. Generally speaking, I believe that the grievee doesn't have the moral authority to tell the griever how they can address their grievance. A couple of months ago, North Korea attacked a South Korean warship killing 46 sailors, and South Korea chose not to respond. In this instance, it seems that the North Koreans correctly predicted the response of the griever South Korea. However, I believe that if South Korean had responded, the people of North Korea would have had it coming no matter how disproportionate the response would have been, and that's exactly how I feel about 9/11.
jazzcyclist
 
Posts: 10857
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: American Imperialism

Postby jhc68 » Sun Jul 04, 2010 9:53 pm

Doesn't it seem ironic that we Americans are celebrating Independence day while spending billions of dollars and thousands of lives trying to subjugate the residents of a piece of real estate literally half-way round the world though military force?

How would we react if foreign troops who can't speak our language and don't share our culture propped up a puppet government in our country and routinely conducted patrols, roadblocks, searches, seizures and military operations in our territory?

It won't work. We'll abandon both Afghanistan and Iraq sooner or later and the locals will be glad to see us go so that they can continue their own age-old conflicts.
jhc68
 
Posts: 3289
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:31 am

Re: American Imperialism

Postby Pego » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:47 am

jazzcyclist wrote:Jeremiah Wright said exactly the same thing that Republican Presidential candidate Ron Paul said


Just so you know, I find both of them (as well as Dr.Paul Jr.) totally unacceptable.
Pego
 
Posts: 10196
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: beyond help

Re: American Imperialism

Postby SQUACKEE » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:51 am

As imperialists, we rather suck. We take over Afghanistan for no reason whatsoever and it's a horrible piece of land who's only crop worth anything is illegal. We have no chance to "win" there and after spending billions and losing thousands of lives we will leave having accomplishing nothing. Ditto with Iraq. I guess the good news for the world is the U.S. is horrible at this imperialist thingy.

What boot going after Canada or Italy? Who in the hell is in charge of the Imperialist committee?
SQUACKEE
 
Posts: 12885
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Heaven-In front of stereo listenin to re-mastered Beatles

Re: American Imperialism

Postby 72 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:52 am

Not just the Middle East chaps; what about the Republic of Congo, the most miserable place on the planet with only about 4/5 million people killed in the last 30 years!!

The CIA, KGB's equal any day, happily liaised with the ''charming'' Belgians, who screwed up the country at the end of the 19th Century, in order to get rid of Lumumba and install the dreaded Mobutu, a happy little criminal amd fraudster.

The Americans have been particularly nasty in Central and South America ever since the Guatemala incidents/bullying of 1948, and I wonder how much publicity was given in the American press to that scandalous series of events.

Despite the over weaning obsessions of your National governments, the stuff on this thread about ''people have it coming to them'' is way beyond contempt , but the Hitlerite madmen, and Stalin and Mao would understand the dreadful evil inherent in any such remarks.

I suppose every imperialist power, however the power is expressed, has always been inherently evil and megalomaniac.
72
 
Posts: 742
Joined: Sun Aug 30, 2009 10:53 am

Re: American Imperialism

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:28 am

SQUACKEE wrote:As imperialists, we rather suck. We take over Afghanistan for no reason whatsoever and it's a horrible piece of land who's only crop worth anything is illegal. We have no chance to "win" there and after spending billions and losing thousands of lives we will leave having accomplishing nothing. Ditto with Iraq. I guess the good news for the world is the U.S. is horrible at this imperialist thingy.

What boot going after Canada or Italy? Who in the hell is in charge of the Imperialist committee?

We should have never set out to transform Afghanistan into our own likeness. We should have only went in to take out as many Al Qaeda types as we could and also make the Taliban pay a high enough price so that they would be hesitant to ever let Al Qaeda set up shop in their country again. A couple of years ago, I read a report that Al Qaeda was trying to set up shop in Lebanon, but the Lebanese army immediately went in and cleaned their clocks when they got wind of it. Even Hezbollah seems to have gotten the message that Al Qaeda is bad news.
In a recent interview with Al-Akhbar Al-Fajr, a Web site Al-Qaida uses to promote its jihadist ideology, Salah Al-Karawi said Hezbollah and the Lebanese Army have become "bodyguards" for Israel. "They don't allow us to act, but they don't strike Israel themselves," he said, describing Hezbollah as "nothing more than protectors of the Jews. It is the biggest hurdle delaying our activity on the ground against Israel."

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/ne ... l-1.283950
And despite what W and his neocon cronies tried to make us believe, Saddam had absolutely no use for Al Qaeda according to a 2005 Senate intelligence report produced by the CIA.
The committee concluded that the CIA had evidence of several instances of contacts between the Iraqi authorities and al-Qaeda throughout the 1990s but that these did not add up to a formal relationship.

It added that the government "did not have a relationship, harbour or turn a blind eye toward Zarqawi and his associates".

It said that Iraq and al-Qaeda were ideologically poles apart.

"Saddam Hussein was distrustful of al-Qaeda and viewed Islamic extremists as a threat to his regime, refusing all requests from al-Qaeda to provide material or operational support," it said.

The Senate report added that the Iraqi regime had repeatedly rejected al-Qaeda requests for meetings.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5328592.stm

As long as we can get countries to treat Al Qaeda like the bubonic plague, why should we care what type of government they have?
jazzcyclist
 
Posts: 10857
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: American Imperialism

Postby SQUACKEE » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:58 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
SQUACKEE wrote:As imperialists, we rather suck. We take over Afghanistan for no reason whatsoever and it's a horrible piece of land who's only crop worth anything is illegal. We have no chance to "win" there and after spending billions and losing thousands of lives we will leave having accomplishing nothing. Ditto with Iraq. I guess the good news for the world is the U.S. is horrible at this imperialist thingy.

What boot going after Canada or Italy? Who in the hell is in charge of the Imperialist committee?

We should have never set out to transform Afghanistan into our own likeness. We should have only went in to take out as many Al Qaeda types as we could and also make the Taliban pay a high enough price so that they would be hesitant to ever let Al Qaeda set up shop in their country again. A couple of years ago, I read a report that Al Qaeda was trying to set up shop in Lebanon, but the Lebanese army immediately went in and cleaned their clocks when they got wind of it. Even Hezbollah seems to have gotten the message that Al Qaeda is bad news.
In a recent interview with Al-Akhbar Al-Fajr, a Web site Al-Qaida uses to promote its jihadist ideology, Salah Al-Karawi said Hezbollah and the Lebanese Army have become "bodyguards" for Israel. "They don't allow us to act, but they don't strike Israel themselves," he said, describing Hezbollah as "nothing more than protectors of the Jews. It is the biggest hurdle delaying our activity on the ground against Israel."

http://www.haaretz.com/print-edition/ne ... l-1.283950

As long as we can get countries to treat Al Qaeda like the bubonic plague, why should we care what type of government they have?


Great post Jazz, i totally agree!
SQUACKEE
 
Posts: 12885
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Heaven-In front of stereo listenin to re-mastered Beatles

Re: American Imperialism

Postby richxx87 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 6:56 am

Here's the deal:
Nuke 'em.
Re-boot the whole place
Start Fresh
Easy to carry out technologically and militarily**
Extremely difficult to justify
But it's the only way
It's for the world's good


** Side note: when has a nation at war ever held back like the U.S. does? America has the military capability and technology to win those wars now -- and decisively. However, so many extraneous, less-than-concrete factors keep them from doing it. It's a historical anomaly and quite bizarre. What's the point of all that military capacity (which the American taxpayer has gone broke paying for) if they are only willing to use bits and pieces of it?
richxx87
 
Posts: 1833
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: Bali

Re: American Imperialism

Postby Gebrucilassie » Mon Jul 05, 2010 7:23 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Gebrucilassie wrote:No more than the silly rubbish you have been spouting. I agree that the American government has done many things that are despicable, but show me a government either that hasn't. But to state that innocent civilians "had it coming" is insulting and ignorant.

You began your previous post with an unprovoked ad hominem attack on me, not serious debate. As for your concern for the innocent civilians of 9/11. it might have some resonance if you showed the same concern for the innocent civilians whose only sin was being Iraqi at a time when George W Bush was president. Of course folks like you don't count them? :roll:


You pretend to know "folks like me", yet you know NOTHING about me! You are wrongly assuming that I was a Bush supporter, far from it! I never voted or supported his tactics. As far as I'm concerned, his 8 years in office were a dark stain on American history. I also don't agree with us being in Iraq or Afghanistan. The difference is that I am sickened by violence against civilians worldwide, not just overseas! I would never state any civilian "had it coming"! NO innocent person just trying to live their life deserves to die for sins of their government.
Gebrucilassie
 
Posts: 220
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:57 pm

Re: American Imperialism

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Jul 05, 2010 8:59 am

Gebrucilassie wrote:You are wrongly assuming that I was a Bush supporter, far from it! I never voted or supported his tactics. As far as I'm concerned, his 8 years in office were a dark stain on American history. I also don't agree with us being in Iraq or Afghanistan. The difference is that I am sickened by violence against civilians worldwide, not just overseas! I would never state any civilian "had it coming"! NO innocent person just trying to live their life deserves to die for sins of their government.

I stand corrected on your views and I'm glad to see that we aren't that far apart after all. Of course no innocent civilian deserves to be targeted by unprovoked violence, but in the world we live in, most governments with military capability have targeted civilians at some time in the past, and they'll probably continue to do it in the future. The folks who were in the WTC on 9/11 didn't deserve to die no more than you or I did. They just happen to be the unlucky soles who were made an example of when the blowback that our government created manifested itself. In an ideal world, civilians would never targeted, but as long as the great powers of the world continue to engage in the practice of collective punishment, I accept the fact that civilians will always be targeted. I may not like the rules of the game, but I accept what they are and that we have to play by them.
jazzcyclist
 
Posts: 10857
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: American Imperialism

Postby Flumpy » Mon Jul 05, 2010 11:11 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Flumpy wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:So its seems that you took exception to my description, but not my logic and analysis.


Which is exactly what I said........

"Whilst I agree with your general point this bit is nonsense."

You're too caught up in semantics. Jeremiah Wright said exactly the same thing that Republican Presidential candidate Ron Paul said, but Paul said it in language etc, etc, yadda, yadda, yadda!!!


I have no idea what you're going on about but you seem to be being particularly hostile for some reason when up until this point I've been agreeing with you :?
Flumpy
 
Posts: 3899
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: American Imperialism

Postby TN1965 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:45 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:Generally speaking, I believe that the grievee doesn't have the moral authority to tell the griever how they can address their grievance. A couple of months ago, North Korea attacked a South Korean warship killing 46 sailors, and South Korea chose not to respond. In this instance, it seems that the North Koreans correctly predicted the response of the griever South Korea. However, I believe that if South Korean had responded, the people of North Korea would have had it coming no matter how disproportionate the response would have been, and that's exactly how I feel about 9/11.


You mean, the US could have dropped hundreds of nukes on Afghanistan to annihilate the country in retaliation? Could South Korea have invaded into North Korea to unify the Korean Peninsula by force in response to the North Korea's attack? Is there any limit?
TN1965
 
Posts: 1182
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:38 pm

Re: American Imperialism

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:49 pm

Flumpy wrote:I have no idea what you're going on about but you seem to be being particularly hostile for some reason when up until this point I've been agreeing with you :?

I didn't mean to come across as hostile. I guess it was my fault for not ending my post with this :)
jazzcyclist
 
Posts: 10857
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: American Imperialism

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Jul 05, 2010 12:58 pm

TN1965 wrote:You mean, the US could have dropped hundreds of nukes on Afghanistan to annihilate the country in retaliation? Could South Korea have invaded into North Korea to unify the Korean Peninsula by force in response to the North Korea's attack? Is there any limit?

I guess if the U.S. or South Korea thought they could get away with it, the Afghans and the North Koreans would have had it coming. And let's keep in mind that the U.S. is the only country that has ever nuked anybody, so it's not like we haven't been there and done that. My guess is that even W and his neocon flunkies realized that the blowback from nuking Afghanistan would be more than we could handle despite their insistence that they don't believe in blowback. And since more Americans died on 9/11/01 than died on 12/07/41, a credible argument can be made that Kabul was more deserving of being nuked than Hiroshima.
jazzcyclist
 
Posts: 10857
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: American Imperialism

Postby TN1965 » Mon Jul 05, 2010 2:05 pm

The consequences of overreacting to others' aggression includes how the act is seen by third parties. In that sense, it cannot be separated from the idea of "morality" or at least perception of it. So while the greivee may not have the moral authority to tell the griever how they address their grievances, that does not mean that the griever can ignore the question of morality.

And leaving the question of morality aside, the griever should certainly be aware of the legality of their action. There is a whole body of literature on the proportionality in international law as well as decisions by the ICJ. It is true that they don't have any enforcement measure, but that does not mean ignoring their decisions has no consequences.
TN1965
 
Posts: 1182
Joined: Mon Aug 24, 2009 8:38 pm

Re: American Imperialism

Postby Marlow » Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:20 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:since more Americans died on 9/11/01 than died on 12/07/41, a credible argument can be made that Kabul was more deserving of being nuked than Hiroshima.

Apparently you've forgotten that there were other casualties in the war AFTER Pearl Harbor.

Justifying Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a fool's errand, but having served in the military for 20 years, I see exactly how it eventuated. Did you know that there was NEVER any high-level debate on WHETHER we should use the Bomb(s); the discussion was how SOON we could use them. At that point in history there was NO question that if you had the biggest baddest weapon, you used it. Revisionist historians often forget that.
Marlow
 
Posts: 21075
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere over the . . . hill

Re: American Imperialism

Postby Gebrucilassie » Mon Jul 05, 2010 3:33 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
Gebrucilassie wrote:You are wrongly assuming that I was a Bush supporter, far from it! I never voted or supported his tactics. As far as I'm concerned, his 8 years in office were a dark stain on American history. I also don't agree with us being in Iraq or Afghanistan. The difference is that I am sickened by violence against civilians worldwide, not just overseas! I would never state any civilian "had it coming"! NO innocent person just trying to live their life deserves to die for sins of their government.

I stand corrected on your views and I'm glad to see that we aren't that far apart after all. Of course no innocent civilian deserves to be targeted by unprovoked violence, but in the world we live in, most governments with military capability have targeted civilians at some time in the past, and they'll probably continue to do it in the future. The folks who were in the WTC on 9/11 didn't deserve to die no more than you or I did. They just happen to be the unlucky soles who were made an example of when the blowback that our government created manifested itself. In an ideal world, civilians would never targeted, but as long as the great powers of the world continue to engage in the practice of collective punishment, I accept the fact that civilians will always be targeted. I may not like the rules of the game, but I accept what they are and that we have to play by them.


I wish that all of the little men (and women) who rule countries around the globe would just value life as much as their ego's and sense of power.
Gebrucilassie
 
Posts: 220
Joined: Mon Apr 20, 2009 5:57 pm

Re: American Imperialism

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Jul 05, 2010 4:40 pm

Marlow wrote:Apparently you've forgotten that there were other casualties in the war AFTER Pearl Harbor.

Justifying Hiroshima and Nagasaki is a fool's errand, but having served in the military for 20 years, I see exactly how it eventuated. Did you know that there was NEVER any high-level debate on WHETHER we should use the Bomb(s); the discussion was how SOON we could use them. At that point in history there was NO question that if you had the biggest baddest weapon, you used it. Revisionist historians often forget that.

From a moral point of view, I don't believe Pearl Harbor was justifiable. But based on my understanding of history, I agree with you that after Trinity on July 16, 1945, Truman would have paid a steep political price if he hadn't nuked the Japanese into giving us an unconditional surrender. However, I don't think Truman would have suffered politically if he had ordered leaflets dropped over Hiroshima on August 5, 1945 since we had total air superiority at that point, and I also don't think he would have suffered if he had waited a few days longer before bombing Nagasaki, since the Japanese still hadn't had a chance to notify the Emperor about Hiroshima before Nagasaki was hit (news traveled a lot slower 65 years ago).

Furthermore, Truman could have chosen to pay the political price of sparing the Japanese from nuclear annihilation. The only reason LBJ was able to pass Civil Rights legislation in the 1960's is because he was the first President who was willing to pay whatever price was necessary to get the job done, while his predecessors had all decided to kick the can down the road. When Senator Richard Russell warned LBJ that he would lose the South if he pushed the 1964 Civil Rights Bill through, LBJ answered, "If that's the price I've got to pay, I'll pay it gladly."

By the way Marlow, over the last few days I think I've learned to see where you're coming from and I'm able to see the world through your eyes, despite the fact that I still don't agree with your world view.
jazzcyclist
 
Posts: 10857
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: American Imperialism

Postby Marlow » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:06 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:By the way Marlow, over the last few days I think I've learned to see where you're coming from and I'm able to see the world through your eyes, despite the fact that I still don't agree with your world view.

I'm still trying to wrap my head around the 'they deserved it" comment, but our civility has carried us through the rough part of our disagreements. :D
Marlow
 
Posts: 21075
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere over the . . . hill

Re: American Imperialism

Postby jazzcyclist » Mon Jul 05, 2010 5:49 pm

Marlow wrote:I'm still trying to wrap my head around the 'they deserved it" comment, but our civility has carried us through the rough part of our disagreements. :D

I believe I used the phrase "had it coming" not "deserved it". How about if I replace "they had it coming" with "it was appropriate to hold the citizens of that nation-state responsible for the actions of their government"?
jazzcyclist
 
Posts: 10857
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: American Imperialism

Postby Pego » Sat Jul 02, 2011 7:45 am

jazzcyclist wrote:
Marlow wrote:I'm still trying to wrap my head around the 'they deserved it" comment, but our civility has carried us through the rough part of our disagreements. :D

I believe I used the phrase "had it coming" not "deserved it". How about if I replace "they had it coming" with "it was appropriate to hold the citizens of that nation-state responsible for the actions of their government"?


Last year I came too late to respond. I am not sure, I agree that the citizens of a country should be held responsible for the actions of their gov. I'll give you a personal example. I hated (still do) the German Nazi gov as much as anybody, yet to this day I find senseless destruction of Dresden appalling. I have major problems with a tit-for-tat behavior.
Pego
 
Posts: 10196
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: beyond help

Re: American Imperialism

Postby Daisy » Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:06 am

Eye for eye seems to be quite the norm here, even from many professing to be Christian. But shouldn't Christian's throw out the old testament in favor of the new?
Daisy
 
Posts: 13153
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: American Imperialism

Postby Marlow » Sat Jul 02, 2011 8:51 am

Daisy wrote:Eye for eye seems to be quite the norm here, even from many professing to be Christian. But shouldn't Christian's throw out the old testament in favor of the new?

Zackly. And since it's FSW, that's my chief objection to SOME C-Fundamentalists: they're more into the FEAR of God, than the LOVE of God. The OT Covenant was about not destroying everybody, the NT Covenant was about redeeming everybody.
Marlow
 
Posts: 21075
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere over the . . . hill

Re: American Imperialism

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:44 pm

Marlow wrote:
Daisy wrote:Eye for eye seems to be quite the norm here, even from many professing to be Christian. But shouldn't Christian's throw out the old testament in favor of the new?

Zackly. And since it's FSW, that's my chief objection to SOME C-Fundamentalists: they're more into the FEAR of God, than the LOVE of God. The OT Covenant was about not destroying everybody, the NT Covenant was about redeeming everybody.

Speaking of Christians, Bill Maher absolutely nails it in this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KAvDtPz33w0
jazzcyclist
 
Posts: 10857
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: American Imperialism

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Jul 02, 2011 1:54 pm

Pego wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:How about if I replace "they had it coming" with "it was appropriate to hold the citizens of that nation-state responsible for the actions of their government"?


Last year I came too late to respond. I am not sure, I agree that the citizens of a country should be held responsible for the actions of their gov. I'll give you a personal example. I hated (still do) the German Nazi gov as much as anybody, yet to this day I find senseless destruction of Dresden appalling. I have major problems with a tit-for-tat behavior.

What happened at Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki clearly violated the rules of war, but even before the U.S. resorted to terrorism, the citizens of Germany and Japan had suffered a great deal from the conventional war that was being waged on them. Can you think of any example in history in which war was waged on a nation-state in such a way that the citizens didn't suffer?
jazzcyclist
 
Posts: 10857
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: American Imperialism

Postby Pego » Sat Jul 02, 2011 2:05 pm

jazzcyclist wrote: Can you think of any example in history in which war was waged on a nation-state in such a way that the citizens didn't suffer?


No, of course not. I was shaking my head in disbelief over atrocities in the Bosnian civil war. Neighbors living in peace for centuries side-by-side all of a sudden "discovered" grievances against each other. Totally senseless.
Pego
 
Posts: 10196
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: beyond help

Re: American Imperialism

Postby Conor Dary » Sat Jul 02, 2011 2:26 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:
What happened at Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki clearly violated the rules of war...


Comparing Dresden, which was appalling, with Hiroshima and Nagasaki, is in my opinion, idiotic.

Germany in Feb. 1945, when Dresden was bombed was pretty much done.

Meanwhile the Japanese were still fighting to the end.

The battle of Okinawa in the spring of 1945 had 12,000 American deaths and tens of thousands of casualties. The Japanese were not giving up. An invasion of Japan itself, would have probably had hundreds of thousands of US dead. My father was stationed in the South Pacific and everyone was quite scared of an actual invasion, and people were talking about a war that would go on until 1946 or later. Fortunately, the Bomb put a quick end to the war.

This reminds of a talk I heard David Halberstam gave about 9 years ago in Chicago. A question from the audience brought up this same point and I really could see that Halberstam, hardly a war monger, was pissed off at the question and pretty much said so.
Conor Dary
 
Posts: 6297
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am
Location: कनोर दारी in Ronald MacDonald's Home Town, and once a Duck always a Duck.

Re: American Imperialism

Postby Marlow » Sat Jul 02, 2011 3:35 pm

Conor Dary wrote:Comparing Dresden, which was appalling, with Hiroshima and Nagasaki, is in my opinion, idiotic.

This vet will disagree. Both were meant to demoralize (aka terrorize) a dangerous enemy. In war one doesn't wait to see how the enemy is doing. If they haven't surrendered, their intent is still to kill YOU. If you can't kill them all, then you do something to get their attention. None of the three sites were of paramount military importance, but in all cases the message was crystal clear.
Marlow
 
Posts: 21075
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere over the . . . hill

Re: American Imperialism

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Jul 02, 2011 4:25 pm

Conor Dary wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:
What happened at Dresden, Hiroshima and Nagasaki clearly violated the rules of war...


Comparing Dresden, which was appalling, with Hiroshima and Nagasaki, is in my opinion, idiotic.

All three incidents were clear violations of the rules of war, and it would take some very Orwellian mental gymnastics to say otherwise with a straight face.

Conor Dary wrote:Germany in Feb. 1945, when Dresden was bombed was pretty much done.

Meanwhile the Japanese were still fighting to the end.

The battle of Okinawa in the spring of 1945 had 12,000 American deaths and tens of thousands of casualties.

But we nuked them in August 1945.
Conor Dary wrote:The Japanese were not giving up.

Dwight Eisenhower and Douglas McArthur both disagreed and called the bombing of Hiroshima unecessary.
In 1945 ... , Secretary of War Stimson visited my headquarters in Germany, [and] informed me that our government was preparing to drop an atomic bomb on Japan. I was one of those who felt that there were a number of cogent reasons to question the wisdom of such an act.... During his recitation of the relevant facts, I had been conscious of a feeling of depression and so I voiced to him my grave misgivings, first on the basis of my belief that Japan was already defeated and that dropping the bomb was completely unnecessary, and second because I thought that our country should avoid shocking world opinion by the use of a weapon whose employment was, I thought, no longer mandatory as a measure to save American lives. It was my belief that Japan was, at that very moment, seeking some way to surrender with a minimum loss of 'face.'

http://nuclearfiles.org/menu/key-issues ... r-bomb.htm
Ronald Takaki wrote, in his article on the sunject in the July 31, 2005 issue of the San Francisco Chronicle, "During the days before that fateful Aug. 6, 1945, Gen. Douglas MacArthur learned that Japan had asked Russia to negotiate a surrender. 'We expected acceptance of the Japanese surrender daily,' one of his staff members recalled. When he was notified that an atomic bomb had been dropped on Hiroshima, the general was livid. MacArthur declared that the atomic attack on Hiroshima was 'completely unnecessary from a military point of view.'"
General Dwight D. Eisenhower, commander of allied forces in Europe and later president of the U.S., also called it "completely unnecessary" and later told an interviewer, " It wasn't necessary to hit them with that awful thing."

http://web.mac.com/rolandgarret/iWeb/si ... gain!.html

http://libcom.org/history/1945-us-respo ... a-nagasaki
Conor Dary wrote:An invasion of Japan itself, would have probably had hundreds of thousands of US dead.

Even if this were true, would it have justified terrorism? Here's the central question: does a nation's unwillingness to take military casualties in order to achieve its objectives give it the moral and/or legal authority to resort to terrorism in order to pursue those objectives?
jazzcyclist
 
Posts: 10857
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Re: American Imperialism

Postby Marlow » Sat Jul 02, 2011 5:30 pm

jazzcyclist wrote:Even if this were true, would it have justified terrorism? Here's the central question: does a nation's unwillingness to take military casualties in order to achieve its objectives give it the moral and/or legal authority to resort to terrorism in order to pursue those objectives?

I'm the most pacifist military guy you'll ever meet, and even I understand that the purpose of war is to win at any cost. An enemy who has not surrendered is a mortal enemy. The massive killing of civilians, as was the case in D, H and N, is indeed unconscionable, but that's what war is . . . :(
Marlow
 
Posts: 21075
Joined: Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:00 pm
Location: Somewhere over the . . . hill

Re: American Imperialism

Postby jazzcyclist » Sat Jul 02, 2011 6:20 pm

Marlow wrote:
jazzcyclist wrote:Even if this were true, would it have justified terrorism? Here's the central question: does a nation's unwillingness to take military casualties in order to achieve its objectives give it the moral and/or legal authority to resort to terrorism in order to pursue those objectives?

I'm the most pacifist military guy you'll ever meet, and even I understand that the purpose of war is to win at any cost. An enemy who has not surrendered is a mortal enemy. The massive killing of civilians, as was the case in D, H and N, is indeed unconscionable, but that's what war is . . . :(

I agree with you 100% Marlow, and just so you know, I'm no pacificist either. I believe that terrorism, like war, is a necessary evil. I just hate it when politicians try to hide behind pious platitudes and fake altruism to justify our military actions, such as concern for Japanese civilians was the motivating factor that led Truman to nuke Japan. Here's what Norman Schwarzkopf once said about going to war:

There's not a General out there today who didn't go through the Vietnam experience. In my case, I happened to go through the Vietnam experience twice, and also Grenada. So we know the horrors of war. And I think that probably you will find that we are greater pacifists than most people you would meet.
jazzcyclist
 
Posts: 10857
Joined: Sat Oct 08, 2005 4:32 am

Next

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest